If anyone reads all of that PM me and I'll give them €5
Stick with it, the bit with the cyborgs is pretty cool.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I confess do I mean to read it but have not got around to it as yet.
I know nothing about whatever shenanigans are going on in the UK ski racing world but I did wonder if it might give an indication how the support for young UK athletes is developing. Chatting to a young UK racer one a couple of years ago it seemed that in the absence of actual cash there were one to two things that could help at minimal cost and it's niggled me since as to how all this works.
However I think one important thing was said very early on :
We aspire to provide programmes and funds for the best British Athletes but the reality is that without funds we are not able to do so, and without Senior International success generating funds is incredibly difficult.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
red 27, OK, I have read it but you may go and buy someone a mosquito net.
It's a bit hard to fathom and he alludes to rumours and tittle tattle that only insiders would know about so all a bit odd really. It rambles on too much and I ended up not learning anything.
Bit that stands out:
Quote:
I am told that the Alpine Discipline received over £0.5m per annum for three of the four years running up to the Vancouver Olympics mainly in grants from UK Sport, TASS and the Home Nations with some major sponsorship. I also understand that the Alpine Discipline spent around £0.75m per annum during this period.
Tells you all you need to know about the demise of SnowsportGB.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Young athletes under-train, over-compete
This is the one thing that Paddy repeats all the time. But he has produced no evidence that this is the case, despite being asked many times via SSE. Who has he been been observing? He's not bothered coming along to any training sessions run by the two of the premier clubs in the UK: Midland and Aldershot, for whom this is certainly not the case. So how has he come to this conclusion?
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Quote:
We have Adult competition superimposed on young adults
Well, yes. In the same way that they do in other sports: football and tennis are the ones I know about, where the "young adults" game is the same as the "Adult" game, albeit with maybe a (slightly) smaller pitch or smaller team: exactly the same as it is in skiing.
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RobW wrote:
Young athletes under-train, over-compete
I am not sure from a skiing point of view, but I know from personal experience of a number of young high level achievers in other sports who didn't, and don't, go on to be top class adult athletes.
This is through a combination of not doing the proper basework from a skills and development point of view, specifically in muscular and specific movement pattern development and rather focusing on the here and now of competitive results. Competition is important at certain stages of athlete development, but I feel training is more important from a long term development point of view.
Well meaning parents are often the problem here as they can be more 'immediate results focused' rather than looking at the longer term development of their athlete child.
I can see skiing potentially having this exact problem.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Bode Swiller wrote:
It's a bit hard to fathom and he alludes to rumours and tittle tattle that only insiders would know about so all a bit odd really. It rambles on too much and I ended up not learning anything.
Too right! He comes across as an amateur running a local club. He doesn't do very much but as he owns and drives the club bus they leave him to waffle on ...
He needs a good PR (wo)man.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
All mountain skiing and play in snow can be replaced by trampoline, gymnastics and judo
So we tell them not to bother skiing and send them all off to do judo instead?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Okanagan, +1. Bl**din* cheaper as well.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
All mountain skiing and play in snow can be replaced by trampoline, gymnastics and judo
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The problem paddy has is that he is an outsider from rugby and people don't seem to trust that what he says and does relates well to skiing. Not sure he will be able to overcome the club mentality of gate training and endless races is the way to build champions. I don't agree with all that he has done but he has tried to effect positive change and in sib racing parents committees etc don't like change
skimottaret, He'll go well with our BASI rower they can go and play golf together, but I suspect just like the rower he will bore the backside off you at a presentation.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
having steve Redgrave as BASI president is a fantastic achievement and I for one applaud BASI for getting him on board , not sure how that relates at all to ski racing
From all that waffle I still don't get why the GB team at World Champs is 2 competitors, I met all the remaining team this morning and wished him luck for tomorrow. Also took a photo of another SH with "Jamacian Mike" (didn't do so well in SL qualification, 56secs behind race 1 leader, 53 secs) and set eyes on teams from Hati, Brazil, India, Ireland, Belguim, Denmark, Netherlands etc. Don't we have ski mountains in the UK and don't we live a short hop from the Alps? I assume bottom line is funding so trampolines it is.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Isn't the fundamental point that there is no cash in British sport for perennial losers? And that isn't going to change. Freestyle
looks like it could be much better bang for the buck if Woodsy medals in Sochi.
And lots of dry slope parents probably have to accept that realistically there is no prospect of funding for their kids in the same way the u11s 5 a side doesn't get a heap of central funding. What the guy is saying that the way to get to senior success probably isn't the old way of being a champion at lots of tiers of junior competition (big fish in small pond syndrome) but ensuring long term development is compatible.
Look at Rugby Union - it's a vastly different game and structure from when I played as a kid/younger adult impacted by coaching influences (including lots of talent from League), conditioning, nutrition, tactics and psychology.
After all it is free
After all it is free
If things go well for Dave Ryding he should get a top 30 finish today he was lying 33rd after the First run and will get a second runs a result. There have already been 4 DNFs from the top 30 racers, so a good steady run and finish should see him move into the next group.
Will that get him a better trampoline as well?
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Quote:
Not sure he will be able to overcome the club mentality of gate training and endless races is the way to build champions.
It wouldn't surprise me if there is a difference in expectations between the parents and the sports governing body.
Perhaps only a small minority of parents see International ski racing as a desirable career choice for their kids and the majority are doing it for other reasons, making watching them race and win 'right now' more important?
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Quote:
Perhaps only a small minority of parents see International ski racing as a desirable career choice for their kids and the majority are doing it for other reasons, making watching them race and win 'right now' more important?
_________________
Pretty much right there - We have a British Childrens Team which just perpetuates the 'big fish in a small pond' syndrome. Many parents and children thing they have made it when they get this 'jacket'.
This is one of the things that leads to the lack of success at junior/senior level as many of these kids do not repeat their performance as they move into older age groups. Much of this is due to the nature of how our sport is run.
During nearly all school holidays in the winter, we run race weeks. This means that the kids that are not able to get out between the holidays will spend their time on snow training gates or racing which is not what works to make great skiers or ski racers. Those that are fortunate to be able to ski more than this or who have a programme that does not include all of these British races and includes plenty of free skiing will become, in the longer term, better skiers and consequentially, better racers.
On one hand, Paddy says that we need to change things at childrens level to achieve success later but on the other, he is promoting a Childrens team that detracts from the programmes that the children are on and offers them nothing more. This programme is part time and the head coach is part time, yet some sponsorship has been found to fund a minibus - I assume that this sits idle for much of the time? This money would be better directed toward the poorly funded and set up senior team programme.
There are many other points in here at the moment. The current CEO of BSS was tasked to initially get the organisation up and running, then to work on funding. He seems to have done very little on the funding front for anything other than the Childrens team minibus - see above.
Then there is the issue of world champs/Olympic qualifying criteria. This has been made pretty tight and there are several athletes that could have a half decent showing at these events but will not have the opportunity. Not only does this not do their morale any good, it means reduced sponsorship opportunities for them. This in turn will potentially reduce their time in the sport. It seems that their saying 'there is no funding for you and we are also taking away some opportunity for you to be marketable enough to find your own funding.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
The mushette has been on the trampoline all afternoon. Should I give Paddy a ring and get her signed up?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
On the subject of programs, can anyone tell me if the senior racers (16+ ?) have anyone from the Governing Body to help help plan their race program & strategy through the season?
I ask as the last time I spoke to a young athlete (this being maybe 3 years ago) they appeared to be lacking a structured program and doing races in a fairly ad-hoc manor. It seemed to me at the time that it would be very beneficial (and cheap to implement) if these guys had access to someone (a ex racer mentor?) to help them plan their season in a more structured way.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
AndAnotherThing.., Isn't that part of the job of their coach.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rjs, Yes, you would have thought so, assuming they have full time coaches.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Philbo wrote:
During nearly all school holidays in the winter, we run race weeks. This means that the kids that are not able to get out between the holidays will spend their time on snow training gates or racing which is not what works to make great skiers or ski racers. Those that are fortunate to be able to ski more than this or who have a programme that does not include all of these British races and includes plenty of free skiing will become, in the longer term, better skiers and consequentially, better racers.
We've certainly felt that the British races involve too much travelling time for the amount of racing, and fitting any sensible amount of out-of-gates training or just non race-orientated free skiing into the same week doesn't work that well, so at the moment we're limiting them to a maximum of 2 a year (both as the culmination of longer periods away). Hence junior is not in Bormio this week - but is spending the time out all mountain skiing (I don't think he'd have been too impressed if we told him he should replace this with judo, gymnastics and trampolining though). He does get some additional racing away from the British races - but it's local to base in Austria when he's there, typically a Saturday morning, less than an hour's travelling time, and all over and back by lunchtime. More the equivalent in time, cost and travel to playing for a Sunday morning football team at home. And dare I say it - the standard's higher than the Brit races, so easier to see where the improvement is still needed but more of an achievement when good results are achieved.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It does seem that the knives are out for Paddy Mortimer but I can’t help feeling that this is a little unfair. There are some big issues to address and this is the first serious attempt I have seen to get to grips with them. He may not have everything right yet but the direction looks ok to me. Three issues seem to be “hot” on this thread.
1. Cross training and overemphasis on gate training
A number of commentators have ridiculed his emphasis on athletic development through cross training but this simply demonstrates their ignorance of the importance of agility, body awareness, strength and power development in becoming a successful ski racer. Trampoline, gymnastics and judo are just three examples of cross training options that are complementary to skiing in the “off” season. I would add other martial arts (but not boxing for other reasons), fencing, racquet sports, or mountain biking to the list. At no stage do I see him suggest that you can become a ski racer by spending all your time on a trampoline but I do hear him say that obsessive “gate training” to the exclusion of wider athletic activity is ultimately unproductive.
2. Funding, Parents and Talent Identification
The fact that there is no public funding and limited sponsorship is a difficult reality to deal with and parents will remain the major source of funding for individual athletes and, dare I say it, income for the various training providers (whether clubs or academies) for the foreseeable future.
This creates a possible conflict of interest with TiD (Talent Identification) processes because it is possible to achieve considerable competitive success in the early years of British skiing via a strategy of investment (by parents in their children). If BSS TiD widens its remit to encompass athletic ability and the other factors mentioned by Paddy Mortimer then some parents are going to be disappointed that their investment does not result in the recognition that competitive results would otherwise suggest. Managing this issue is pretty tricky to say the least.
3. Lack of Representation in the World Championships
This was a scandal and a development opportunity missed. Don’t do it again.
However given that there is no money, in my view, there are four areas that BSS should concentrate on:-
1. Talent Identification – ensure best practice in this area. The proposal looks ok up to a point but it is important that the non-skiing elements are made much clearer as soon as possible – at the moment there is no detail. It is vital also for credibility that TiD processes are seen to be fair, transparent and inclusive. In fact any ski racer with competitive ambitions should be able to “try out” - there aren’t that many of them. It is important to track these non-skiing elements too.
2. Providing Advice - help athletes and parents to make key decisions regarding: snow time requirements; coaching options; the athletic requirements of the sport; how to access appropriate dry land conditioning in the UK and overseas; educational support; racing programme and finding sponsorship.
3. Facilitation – create or enhance links with: coaching providers including those based overseas (be both creative and receptive to new ideas); foreign snow sports governing bodies (e.g. to facilitate involvement in national level races); medical/physiotherapy providers.
4. Cost Management & Funding - aside from the obvious need to raise money there is much that can be done (or at least attempted) to assist parents to keep their costs under control. Someone with more imagination than me might think of other ideas but off hand the following are worth looking at:-
- Facilitation as mentioned above
- Negotiating “BSS” equipment deals with equipment manufacturers and suppliers.
- Providing links to alternative providers of ski equipment (it is outrageous that a British ski racer pays a premium for skis relative to, say, a club standard athlete in an alpine country).
- The management of the quota system to be reorganised to accommodate proximity to an athlete’s declared alpine base as well as points to help keep travel costs under control.
- Continue to ensure the British alpine race calendar is organised as far as possible around geographical “centres of gravity” (as has fortuitously happened this season with the exception of Bormio).
- Negotiate “BSS” airline deals including discounts for the carriage of race skis.
- Encourage athletes to participate in foreign national ski races (local, cheap) rather than just FIS. Particularly important for younger FIS athletes in my view.
Feel free to disagree!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
g444eneva wrote:
At no stage do I see him suggest that you can become a ski racer by spending all your time on a trampoline.
yet that is the impression given by:
Quote:
All mountain skiing and play in snow can be replaced by trampoline, gymnastics and judo
g444eneva wrote:
Encourage athletes to participate in foreign national ski races (local, cheap) rather than just FIS. Particularly important for younger FIS athletes in my view.
Unfortunately the team selection policies are very much focussed on the British races, and being seen by those involved in British selection (which is another way of saying being at the British races, or in a training organisation which employs one of the selectors) - when you have policies such as "Selectors’ observations will form part of the selection process." and "It is compulsory that all athletes wishing to be considered for selection should participate in the British Alpine Championships" and "Additional U14 athletes may be offered international race starts based on performance in Christmas/New Year (British) races in the current season." Hardly surprising then that many people with any ambition towards team places are interpreting that as meaning that they must follow the British circuit in preference to more local (but maybe higher standard) races elsewhere. Train and race outside of the conventional British setup, and you're all but invisible.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Okanagen,
Probably Mortimer could have made himself clearer but taken in the context of the overall sense of his open letter - which challenges the gate and race focus at a young age in British ski racing - I think you may have misunderstood his meaning (perhaps we can ask him later this season!)
He actually said in refernece to judo and tramploining etc:
" The key principles for the children which we must address are:
- All mountain skiing and play in snow can be replaced by trampoline, gymnastics and judo.
- We can get the movement skills that Alpine children get through trampoline and judo in the UK."
I take this to mean that British children (U16) are disadvantaged compared to "Alpine children" with their easy access to snow based opportunities for movement development and that if British children are to develop their movement skills then they will need to do so in different ways (or move to switzerland I suppose). I am quite sympathetic to this view.
I do agree with you that the pressure to perform in british races is somewhat obsessive which is why I would be keen to see a change of emphasis here. It would certainly help on the cost front.
My teenage son is quite excited about working his way to achieving 5 rings... Not entirely sure this is a suitable model. Perhaps something a bit less graphic might keep him working towards the correct goals.
Now, as for my daughter... not really to sure what to think...
If I, for example, had a sibling who was pretty good at gymnastics and could ski to reasonable standard, but lived nowhere near Hemel who should I speak to??????
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
same old problems again and again
no funding is one issue but the bigger issue seams to be
he is trying to implement change (be it the right change or not i will leave for someone else to debate) and parents, committees and some of the racers don't like change so they fight it
i still maintain that skiing could learn a lot from the model that british cycling use, you know, the one that involves the athletes getting off their butts and doing their own program of cross training between the regular thursday night gate bashing sessions, but that's change and the parents won't like it
After all it is free
After all it is free
CEM wrote:
same old problems again and again
no funding is one issue but the bigger issue seams to be
he is trying to implement change (be it the right change or not i will leave for someone else to debate) and parents, committees and some of the racers don't like change so they fight it
i still maintain that skiing could learn a lot from the model that british cycling use, you know, the one that involves the athletes getting off their butts and doing their own program of cross training between the regular thursday night gate bashing sessions, but that's change and the parents won't like it
+1
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Quote:
My teenage son is quite excited about working his way to achieving 5 rings... Not entirely sure this is a suitable model
Not really a suitable model and a little dated with not all the information/strands etc. needed for performance in alpine racing.
Quote:
If I, for example, had a sibling who was pretty good at gymnastics and could ski to reasonable standard, but lived nowhere near Hemel who should I speak to??????
i still maintain that skiing could learn a lot from the model that british cycling use, you know, the one that involves the athletes getting off their butts and doing their own program of cross training between the regular thursday night gate bashing sessions, but that's change and the parents won't like it
This has long been the case but not the main problem this time.
Quote:
he is trying to implement change (be it the right change or not i will leave for someone else to debate) and parents, committees and some of the racers don't like change so they fight it
This is being questioned by several coaches with many years experience in delivering performance and it is currently being met with 'I am here to produce medals' and not a lot else. we have yet to see any evidence that replacing free skiing with trampolining or judo will yield results. And this was his statement - replacing. Many coaches know that a breadth of other sports will make children more athletic and able in their chosen sport but that is not what has been said.
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So Phil, what cross training would you recommend? Bearing in mind that mine is only 11 at the moment so gyms aren't really an option yet, he's doing football, tennis (plus specific agility training with his tennis coach), triathlon, mountain biking on a regular basis, as well as at least two sessions of skiing per week, one of which isn't usually gate focussed. Plus on a more occasional basis other sports such as climbing, kayaking, cross-country running, etc (and yes we do also have a trampoline, and just about every other balance related "toy" available). This coming week for example that lot will add up to about 17 hours, which is probably a bit more usual for termtime. I think with that combination he's probably covering most of the agility, strength, stamina, anticipation, reaction, timing, thinking ahead, balance, etc angles - but is there anything (other than judo and gymnastics - he prefers his sports to be outdoors!) we should think about changing?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
having steve Redgrave as BASI president is a fantastic achievement and I for one applaud BASI for getting him on board , not sure how that relates at all to ski racing
