 Poster: A snowHead
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patricksh,  There is absolutely no reason to suppose that an out of control snowboarder had anything to do with this accident. Just an excuse for a rant. I hope you're equally wrong about the parents living with regrets. There is no reason why they should do that; there is nothing more pointless or destructive than "regrets" in such a situation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| There is of course a wider solution attached to the phrase "stop the brutal grooming" but then not many sensitive flowers would like that either. |
Quite. A red run shouldn't normally be a 'lose control and you die' affair. If the run hadn't been groomed, the accident would almost certainly not have been fatal. Bizarrely, though, the few ungroomed runs that are allowed to exist in most alpine resorts are scarily labelled as iteneraries (or equivalent) and marked as being suitable only for experts. When my kids were younger, I felt much safer in the bumps than on the high speed runs.
We need less grooming. Much less.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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double post
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 16-02-13 12:04; edited 1 time in total
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This accident is very sad, but unfortunately not uncommon . A 12 year old boy died in the same way this week at Saalbach. Many other reports of serious incidents that don't get reported here (I think) http://www.austriantimes.at/General_News (go page 2 as well to see many over the last couple of weeks)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
When my kids were younger, I felt much safer in the bumps than on the high speed runs.
We need less grooming. Much less. |
Exactly this. It's the near-flat blue groomers where I've had to take emergency trip-him-up measures with Jr. He's lots more in control on a good choppy red!
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Mr Piehole,
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He's lots more in control on a good choppy red!
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Me too.
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These are interesting points. The speeds that people can reach on smooth blue runs are fairly frightening.
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Heard it was on the red run at Ahorn. Not sure how far down she was, but past the chair it was pretty horrible early Feb. Lots of ice on the narrow bits. Skied past some British boarders who looked less than impressed.
My thoughts to the family, I can't imagine how they must feel.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Rip My thoughts and prayers are with this girls family. There but for the grace of god go many of us.
I have started wearing a helmet now I am skiing with juniors. A quick point it is illegal to rent ski equipment to juniors in Austria without a helmet. In Austria by the afternoon a lot of easy blues become nearly blacks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Very sad and tragic and I hope the family are coping as well in the circumstances as the statement suggests. I particularly feel for the the girls brother, who tried for 40 minutes to resuscitate her. It's stressful and tiring to carry out for just 5-10 minutes and must have been extremely traumatic for him and all concerned.
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| “There is enormous pressure on resorts to over-groom – to iron out bumps and prepare pistes as if they were racetracks. If they don’t make the slope smooth, skiers will say they will go elsewhere next year and the resort will lose money.” |
I hadn't given this much thought until my recent holiday in Austria, where people were complaining loudly (some were fairly good experienced skiers) about how chopped and mogulled some of the runs were in the afternoon. To me, having been used to skiing in Scotland and the big French resorts, they were still very good but it brought home that nowadays people expect perfectly groomed pistes all day long. It does give a false sense of 'ability' and I saw many going way too fast as the day wore on, with their lack of technique evident as soon as they hit a bump or bit of crud.
I don't like the thought of more regulations governing safety on slopes or re-grading but I think that a bigger emphasis on skier/boarder behaviour, particularly re speed v control and the idiots who persist in standing/sitting in the middle of the piste, should be more rigorously enforced in the busy lower runs, where the danger is greatest.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Often find it better to play about in the crud at the side of the pistes and start skiing the pistes in the afternoon when the masses are tired and the "backseat racers" don't have the technique to ski it at speed.
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patricksh, I think this is unwarranted. Plus you are not expected to lose technique, control and balance just because some boarders are speeding around you. Skiing in traffic is an acquired skill, just as being able to vary the size and shape of turns. If traffic is a worry there is always a downloading option and you won't be adding to the problem.
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You know it makes sense.
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never summer
I understand your point but don't agree that downloading should be necessary just because some others are skiing or boarding without full control. Everyone has to learn and is it really that big a deal to expect people to slow down a little and show consideration for others on the slopes, especially on the lower/easier slopes where you find the bulk of beginners? Would you expect learner drivers to be constantly cut up or intimidated on the road just because they were going a little slower?
I also think patricksh comments re snowboarders are a bit outdated and biased (I remember hearing exactly the same thing re boarders 20+ years ago) and in Austria this year it was definitely skiers who were the main culprits.
As I already mentioned ^^, I would hate regulation ie. speed limits on the piste, as skiing/boarding is, and should be, exhilarating fun but someone going at speed without full control is a danger to themselves, and more importantly others.
Simply obeying the basic rules of the piste goes a long way, as does consideration and respect for other users.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ruffwood, Fair comment but the majority of people who are excessively nervous are those who are probably on the boundaries of their skill/confidence. Is it fair to ask other slope users who are at the level of the slope to crawl because someone has gone on something beyond their capabilities? I think when it comes to busy pistes the analogy is more like a motorway - if you insist on driving 50mph in the middle lane, people are going to cut you up and behave what seems like very aggressively toward you.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What I'm referring to is, for want of a better term, beginner slopes ie. the blues/greens near the resort which tend to be where the beginners and newer skiers are found. I certainly wouldn't expect others to 'crawl'; just to ski well within their limits and give those who need it a bit more space.
As for the motorway analogy - if only all learners stuck to the middle it would be fine, as unlike a motorway it gives you both sides for overtaking, which is always much nicer than the icy/scraped middle where most people seem to stay anyway. However, I'm sure we've all been stuck behind the large ski class snaking its way slowly down the blue with the instructor using every inch of the 40m wide piste 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Is it fair to ask other slope users who are at the level of the slope to crawl because someone has gone on something beyond their capabilities?
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whether it's fair or not is beside the point really - it's just what you have to do. To use a different motoring analogy, what about having to crawl along a winding country road behind a cyclist, because it's not safe to overtake? Just suck it up. If a driver is doing any number of mph sitting in the middle lane for no good reason, then he is driving badly. If he's doing 45 mph in the inside lane, that's his right.
However, I do think people insisting on skiing down difficult home runs somewhere like Val D'Isere, at the end of a long day, when the slopes are icy and there are too many people, are pushing their luck - no matter what their skill level. One of those dopey beginners behind you could fall and take you out. Knowing when it's wise to sit in a gondola and watch the carnage below isn't just something for beginners to learn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Does any of this have anything to do with the tragic death of this girl
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Ruffwood, It's the same thing. If traffic makes you feel uncomfortable for whatever reason - download. I totally agree that everyone is entitled to their place on the slopes and I don't think that learners should be restricted to nursery slopes but whenever you find yourself worried more about what's going on behind you (which you cannot control really and the only tool available is making your line as predictable as possible) than what's ahead of you (which you have way more control over) to the point that the possibility of others losing control makes you lose yours downloading is the safest bet. It's like driving. You get your license but rush hour traffic may be still beyond your capabilities so you start exposing yourself to it gradually.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| Knowing when it's wise to sit in a gondola and watch the carnage below isn't just something for beginners to learn. |
Wise words pam w.
I had no qualms about taking the lift down the last blue a couple of times in Serre Chevalier last year. A combination of tired legs, busy run with heavy slush mixed with icy bare patches is not a recipe for a fun end to the day.
Edit: neversummer - agree with your comments but in some places there just isn't that option or choice of quiet runs and beginners have paid their money same as everyone else and have the right to enjoy the slopes in safety.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 18-02-13 13:03; edited 2 times in total
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| pam w wrote: |
| If he's doing 45 mph in the inside lane, that's his right |
50 mph and I'd agree 
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pam w, Spot on, I do find myself coming off the hill half an hour before the last rush or leaving it till after it's finished and I've no issue with a downlift at all. It's not just an age thing 'cos if the conditions are right I still leave my brains in the boot-room . . . but more a realisation that with modern equipment, the gap between it and ability has grown wider.
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pam w, Typically 45 mph on inside lane means that there is no good reason for a car to be there. But I agree that skiers should be more patient with learners and follow the rules if they want to overtake. If they can't judge safely, poo-poo happens, they should stay behind for the time being. I mean it's not that difficult to get away from beginners.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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never summer, the issue manifests most obviously on the crucial narrow catracks which might be the only way down from a particular part of the mountain - all traffic ends up on them and someone attepting to snowplough the whole width can be a liability because sooner or later someone makes a poor overtaking decision. Now the novice has every right to be there but like the guy doing 45mph in the inside lane who stands to be rear ended or logjam the motorway as trucks pull around him, it doesn't mean it's sensible or prudent.
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Ruffwood, Absolutely. And big part of this safety is to be able to focus on what's ahead of you and not what others behind you are doing. It is an acquired skill but a very important one. Especially that very often there is no way to avoid the traffic. Slow? Keep to one side and make it easier for others to pass. Otherwise you are increasing the chances when some reckless idiot decides to overtake you when you are in the middle of a track and gets it totally wrong. It's like the road where safety is everyone's joint responsibility. And while more experienced skiers often need to be more patient with beginners beginners have their own role to play in this too. The only way to get more comfortable in traffic is to ski in it. But make sure you took care of your own safety to the extent possible.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| Very, very sad. But its easy to over-analyse these incidents I think. We are all just a second away from catching an edge, banging our head and going to meet our maker - or being hit by the proverbial bus |
...so true and a very very tragic story. 
Reading this thread recalled my own child's fatal accident (not skiing but cycling), which happened 20 years ago this month... and I would only add that the lives of the little girl's family can never be the same again.
Skiing is a wonderful sport, but as with any other activity, apart from staying at home on the couch, watching TV--we can be at risk of injury, and of course should encourage our children to be active, yet try to be safe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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fatbob, Yes. On the other hand there are certain known times when all ski schools are skiing down these tracks and why more experienced skiers choose these times to ski down and then complain of beginners is also puzzling.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yesterday I was doing the last run back to the car in Les Contamines and a young French lad nearby - I'd guess about 6 or 7 years old - lost control and sat back on his skis and started accelerating down the hill, with a look of panic on his face. His Mum tried to give chase and fell herself, so I raced down after him as he was heading down towards some stationary skiers and/or some trees
Luckily just before I got to him one of his skis got an edge and he came to a halt. I stopped to make sure he was OK (he was) before his Dad came down to lift him up (no acknowledgement of my efforts I hasten to add....I suppose his son's welfare was the priority though in fairness  )
All of which left me pondering afterwards exactly how I would have stopped him - I was probably going to try and skid stop and lay on the ground in front to interrupt his fall, but I really don't know if this would have worked or made matters worse as he was pointing directly downhill.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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It isn't really fast boarders I have issue with, but out of control and fast boarders and skiers. I have no problem with someone flying down hill if they are in control, but I do think it is very bad manners to zoom down a crowded piste. Certainly I will give any kids downslope to me the same wide berth I hope others would give my kids.
I had a couple of people zoom past me too close last week. Anyone passing within 1m of you going at high speed is unacceptable. I was skiing (at cruise speed) with my wife and some Dutch young guy came wiThin inches at high speed. I gave chased and caught him to his horror and gave him piece of my mind. He argued I should have been looking up hill?? Eventually his Dad caught up and made him apologise. I just won't let these guys get away with recklessness
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This tragic event happened just before me my wife and daughter came out this week to La Tania, to be honest it only added to my fear for my daughter and skiing,however as has been mentioned you cannot sit at home all day.
The last 3 days to be honest have been my wife in front daughter in middle and me trying to keep up behind ( as shield!)
She's a good skier , but I just worry about the iddiots who cone hurtling down greens and blues at pace, why don't they fleck off up to the reds and blacks to ge their speed kicks! .
What also worries me was the first gondola we took up fathers and their sons were most excited about the fact that they had just 68 mph ( 28 average) down the blue into the resort, these aps worry me and parenting ?
I know it comes with the territory
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB, Same stories I linked to on Saturday; lots of tragic incidents
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
The last 3 days to be honest have been my wife in front daughter in middle and me trying to keep up behind ( as shield!)
She's a good skier , but I just worry about the iddiots who cone hurtling down greens and blues at pace, why don't they fleck off up to the reds and blacks to ge their speed kicks! .
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Which ironically is probably the worst thing you can do, causing more danger. You're limiting the windows in which people can safely overtake (when they can get past your daughter you/your is in the way), so they'll get frustrated and take more of a risk to get past in the smaller opportunities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Whitters wrote: |
All of which left me pondering afterwards exactly how I would have stopped him - I was probably going to try and skid stop and lay on the ground in front to interrupt his fall, but I really don't know if this would have worked or made matters worse as he was pointing directly downhill. |
Personally, harsh as it sounds, I would steer very, very clear of trying to do anything like this (or maybe anything at all). Apart from the fact that you may well injure yourself, perhaps very seriously, you will almost certainly be held responsible for any injuries the kid does suffer.
No-one will say, 'But for you he would have died.' They will say, 'What you did caused this kid's broken leg.'
If a situation has got to the point where someone is considering diving in front of a child at 60mph (or thereabouts) it has gone too far and is in the lap of the gods.
I feel very sorry for this poor child's family. Was away last week with my twin daughters, aged 12, and had one of them ski down a black sort of 50-50 out of/in control ('I got scared to turn, dad, so I just schussed.')
There but for the grace of God go many of us, I suppose.
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clarky999,
Wait till you've got a daughter. I'm sure logic will go out of the window and you'll start to appreciate how we feel. Not that the mushette needs a backstop...I feel more like the rest or the resort needs protecting from her 
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All of which left me pondering afterwards exactly how I would have stopped him - I was probably going to try and skid stop and lay on the ground in front to interrupt his fall, but I really don't know if this would have worked or made matters worse as he was pointing directly downhill.
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I have desperately chased both kids downhill wondering how I was going to "save" them. I have never yet caught junior, and I'm starting to realize that there wouldn't be much point to it. I have caught the mushette a couple of times, and what I did was ski next to her and just pick her up. Fortunately she is still young enough to think that is great fun. I'm not sure what I'll do next year
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I had a situation several years ago with a Girl in our group who got seriously out of control. I was lucky enough to be close enough to give chase and help her out, skiing downhill of her and putting my arm around her and bringing her eventually to a slow turning halt, with me below her on the fall line. Stupid? Maybe...... Dunno if I would do it again though, think I was lucky to get away with helping her out that time. You never know what you will do until something untoward happens. Think it was in the lap of the gods that day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| musher wrote: |
clarky999,
Wait till you've got a daughter. I'm sure logic will go out of the window and you'll start to appreciate how we feel. Not that the mushette needs a backstop...I feel more like the rest or the resort needs protecting from her |
Oh, I'm 100% sure you're right and completely understand why phillip33 would try to do that, but (I think) it's worth pointing out that it's unlikely to help. I understand the fear, there've been several times I've been skiing where I've been genuinely scared of the way some idiots skid around out of control at high speed, but it is a minority, and, contrary to what you often see on SH's, there are also plenty of very fast skiers who are 100% in control and skiing very safely, even if it does make some people nervous. The safest way to ski is to stay in a narrow corridor, leaving plenty of room for either type of skier to overtake without having to slip just round the side of you.
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| Whitters wrote: |
Yesterday I was doing the last run back to the car in Les Contamines and a young French lad nearby - I'd guess about 6 or 7 years old - lost control and sat back on his skis and started accelerating down the hill, with a look of panic on his face. His Mum tried to give chase and fell herself, so I raced down after him as he was heading down towards some stationary skiers and/or some trees
Luckily just before I got to him one of his skis got an edge and he came to a halt. I stopped to make sure he was OK (he was) before his Dad came down to lift him up (no acknowledgement of my efforts I hasten to add....I suppose his son's welfare was the priority though in fairness )
All of which left me pondering afterwards exactly how I would have stopped him - I was probably going to try and skid stop and lay on the ground in front to interrupt his fall, but I really don't know if this would have worked or made matters worse as he was pointing directly downhill. |
In terms of getting him to stop quickly before hitting something, pushing him over onto his side is likely to be the best bet (less chance of injury to both of you) - but good luck if he gets hurt in the process...
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FAQ
