 Poster: A snowHead
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| Kramer wrote: |
| AA men can get those locking wheel nuts off no problem at all. |
I've never had a problem with locking wheel nuts. I have however had problems with alloy wheels bonding themselves to the steel hubs, aluminium grease to the rescue.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I'm lucky as an ex motorcyclist that I do understand the way wheeled vehicles work, and don't work, and even a lot of motorcyclists don't fully understand opposite lock, despite the fact that it's the only thing that really gets them round roundabouts effectively.
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Well lets get this bit out of the way firstly, it's not opposite lock, it's called counter steer and it used to initiate the turn but not to maintain it, but I agree a lot of people who ride two wheeled vehicles don't understand that they are using it. (btw Rospa Gold (motorcycle), IAM (Car/Motorcycle) IAM Observer/Instructor(Motorcycle), and I have also trained with some UK Police forces....)
Ratae Corieltauvorum, You are correct that driving standards, experience and training count for much more (to a point) than equipment, but we have to understand that not everyone undertakes additional training for the vehicles they use once they have met the legal requirement, because they don't have to, rightly or wrongly its a fact.
Your argument that on a FWD it is only really important to have them on the Driving(Front) wheels is not incorrect but has a flaw in that most people aren't trained or experienced in driving with tyres that have a different relative grip levels. IE in most circumstances, if we exclude the unusual, pretty much all modern FWD cars will understeer by default well before oversteer is induced or naturally occurs. By putting tyres that naturally have a higher grip coefficient on the front what invariably happens is that a higher speed is attained before understeer starts, on a dry road with normal tyres this isn't usually an issue as these higher speeds are less rarely reached.
On a snowy/icy/slushy road however the speed where the level of grip of the front exceeds the level of grip on the rear (oversteer) is induced is likely to be greatly reduced. As most people have not had the additional training to deal with oversteer effectively this is where is causes the issue and why all 4 tyres should be providing a similar level of grip.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I used to love taking my old injection Sierra out on snowy back roads to play at rear drift steering  Black Rock sands was good for that too, a massive beach with rock hard wet sand, your very own stunt playground. It did get you used to correcting the fishtailing rear.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 26-01-13 11:32; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
On a snowy/icy/slushy road however the speed where the level of grip of the front exceeds the level of grip on the rear (oversteer) is induced is likely to be greatly reduced. As most people have not had the additional training to deal with oversteer effectively this is where is causes the issue and why all 4 tyres should be providing a similar level of grip. |
Dealing with oversteer in a FWD car can be a bit of a handful, normally beyond most peoples experience as you say. Having a car which is inherently unbalanced is still dangerous in my opinion no matter what your experience level is. Having to deal with a car that's loose at the back isn't what you want on snowy roads.
I compete against similarly talented opposition off-road in my Land Rover, I recon I can get a Land Rover to do what most people wouldn't dream of attempting, however if I had the wrong tyres fitted for the conditions, my level of talent still wouldn't make up for the disadvantage in equipment if a relative novice was driving one with the right tyres fitted.
You've only got to look at F1 to see the disadvantages of having the wrong tyres fitted at any particular time.
As for Police training, I experienced as a passenger the shortcomings of a Police Trainer. He was employed to provide high speed Pro-Drive laps in a Honda NSX at Milbrook proving ground as the racing driver previously booked has called in sick. I was unfortunate enough to be in the passenger seat when his limited talent ran out, we ended up in the scenery on the handling circuit. I've been around that track hundreds of times and this guy was clearly talentless, he worried me on the first lap. crashed on the second and this guy trains Police drivers. 
Fortunately no damage to the car or me, he crashed it again in the same place 2 hours later and Honda sacked him before he hurt someone.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman,
I thought that was what i said, as in agreeing on the whole with your point of view?
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ansta1, Sorry, I think I've misunderstood your post then. I read it as though you were alluding to the fact that talent could overcome the inherent potentially dangerous problem in mixing winter and summer tyres. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, absolutely not. Whilst not completely in agreement with either viewpoint i stand firmly on Your side of the fence, 2 wheels ok, 4 wheels best.
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| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
You speak from YouTube and listening to uvver interwebz gurus, I speak from experience, and I go down a 1:4 every day, and hey guess what. I'm just fine, but you are of course entitled like everyone else to your opinion, as that is what mine is, just an opinion  don't try and disguise it as a fact
Thankz for ur input |
I speak from the experience of being a professional automotive engineer for the last 20 years. I even specialise in vehicle dynamics and chassis engineering, so this is a subject in which I feel qualified to put forward an opinion. So in my humble opinion, you are a complete bell end who has deluded themselves into thinking that they are some sort of expert on winter driving technique.
But anyway, it is a fact that all major tyre and vehicle manufacturers consider it highly dangerous to mix winter and summer tyres across axles. It isn't merely just my opinion, it's the opinion of the whole automotive industry. But in your mind they are all wrong and you are right, simply because you can make better progress in the snow with winter tyres fitted to your front axle than you perhaps could with 4 normal tyres. You can of course because of the increased front traction i.e. you can get your car moving in a situation were you simply couldn't with normal front tyres. But that doesn't make it safer. It just means you are now driving a dangerously imbalanced car rather than simply being stuck.
This is not rocket science. The only sensible options are to either fit 4 winter tyres or avoid driving in the snow altogether. Mixing tyre types across axles is a stupid idea that is likely to bite you sooner or later.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| Spyderman, absolutely not. Whilst not completely in agreement with either viewpoint i stand firmly on Your side of the fence, 2 wheels ok, 4 wheels best. |
My side of the fence is 2 wheels not OK, 4 wheels only.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Last night we had about 4 inches on top of about 7 inches already laying. Roads were frozen so chaious but there were two sorts of muppets on the road. People with summer tyres reving the hell out of their engines and 4x4s with big mud tyres who think if they chuck it into 4x4 diff lock they can drive faster than they normally would on a clear road.
4x4 users.....mud tyres are as useless as tits on a bull in the ice!!! 
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Speaking of winter tyres, I had a slow puncture in one of mine but couldn't see anything so took it down to my local tyre place for a check. They found a leaking valve seat, sorted it out, rotated the wheels for me and only charged £10 
Buckley Tryes have always been great at service and cost for the North Wales area.
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You know it makes sense.
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You speak from YouTube and listening to uvver interwebz gurus
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I speak from the experience of being a professional automotive engineer for the last 20 years. I even specialise in vehicle dynamics and chassis engineering, so this is a subject in which I feel qualified to put forward an opinion. So in my humble opinion, you are a complete bell end
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This is a very entertaining thread for a poor old lady who can't go out skiing. Keep it up, chaps.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dot. wrote: |
4x4 users.....mud tyres are as useless as tits on a bull in the ice!!! |
On this thread I think most people are actually agreeing in a kind of disagreeing kind of way. Probably, on the basis that it is more fun to have an argument on a forum than to agree.
My own view/summary:
1) I think most people agree that mud tyre, even M&S tyres which aren't actually winter tyres at all, are pretty poor in Snow. I have AT2's on my 4X4 yet my c4 picasso is much better in the snow and ice on Tyreman's Vredestein all season tyres even when the 4x4 is in diff lock mode.
2) Most people agree that having 4 of the same type of tyre is better and safer overall. However, I did drive a fwd car for a season with winter tyres front and summers rear. It was a bit tail happy going up and down the passes but was ok if you are careful and don't mind that. I would prefer and have since then had either all winter/all summer tyres. But many people do it - there are lot's of riskier things people do when driving than that.
Most car manufactures build understeer into their cars basic handling configuration as for most drivers it is safer. So it follows that it is safer to have matching tyres front and rear - but that doesn't mean that some people can't actually do that with low risk.
3) Police drivers don't always, but often do, make good track drivers. I do a lot of track driving with Lotus On Track and from what I gather talking to soem police who also drive on track, the training is clearly around safe high speed driving on the road rather than on the limit driving on the track.
So basically we are all agreed, thread over.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 26-01-13 11:58; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
4x4s with big mud tyres who think if they chuck it into 4x4 diff lock they can drive faster than they normally would on a clear road
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we had this problem back in Sussex earlier this month (so I have been informed by neighbours there) where some of our lanes were closed by the Highways bods because of flooding from the River Lavant - so idiots in big 4x4s (we have one but its small!) ignored the signs and shot through the flooded roads, causing huge waves which then flooded nearby properties which were just hanging on with sandbags etc and would have been alright otherwise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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and another who drove across a raging ford in the Chew Valley and drowned when his Ranger Rover was washed down and wedged under a bridge. Fortunately he was on his own in the vehicle. Caused my grand-children's school to be closed for another day, as the distressing scene was just where they all walk past on the way to school.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Pamski, Sadly there are irresponsible 4x4 owners out there, just like there are irresponsible car/bike/cycle owners.
pam w, Know you vehicle's capabilities is the sensible answer. Fortunately mine fills up with water pretty quickly so I keep the wheels on the ground and keep moving, Range Rover door seals are pretty good so they tend to float.
People are quick enough to slag 4x4 drivers off, but what about when the club response teams are called out to deliver meals to the elderly, get Doctors & Nurses to Hospitals in the snow, rescue stuck motorists?
I received a Police commendation last year for rescuing 1 Police Car, 1 crashed Vauxhall Insignia with a family with young children & a Transit Tipper Truck, all stuck embedded in snow banks on a steep hill.
Please don't tar us all with the same brush, one day you might need us.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, love that winch bumper. What angle of approach does that give you?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Dot., 84 degrees, if it was up to rock, but I'd drive at earth even if was vertical, just embed the bumper and let the tyres do the rest. I've since modified the rear quarter now to add shaped amour with losing the rear chequerplate section gives me again a near vertical departure angle, it kept getting bent so I had a firm make the armour to fit mine, same firm as made the bumper.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
She's s real beauty Syderdude, but I thought you said you couldn't get any pukka ice/snow tyre? |
I've got Winter Tyres, not full on Snow Tyres. Pirelli Ice & Snow 265/70R16 fitted on Discovery 1 7J Steel Wheels, so not standard size for a Series/Defender which would be 235/85R16, You can get that size in Winter Tyres, but I got the Disco Steels for nothing and picked up the Pirelli's dirt cheap. I'd prefer the narrower size, but they do the job.
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Ratae Corieltauvorum, surely it should be Aquae Sulis?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Ratae Corieltauvorum, surely it should be Aquae Sulis? |
Nope, Leicester boy
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