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Skiing in poor visibility

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
When it is snowing and the visibility is poor (about 5m or less) is there anything that can be done? Any lens that works or something else that would work like a headtorch?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
In general terms a yellow, orange or pink lens is much better in low light that a shaded lens. But if vis is down to 5m or less then there's really not much you can do apart from go slow, get to the bottom and go for a beer. I find when I ski in conditions where I can only just about see the tips of my skis (pretty rare to be fair) it gives me motion sickness; even when going really slow I lose the ability to gauge my speed (and sometimes even if I'm moving at all).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ski somewhere with trees.
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Trees - helps with the contrast.
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I sometimes ski with my eyes shut, in normal visibility and away from crowds or obvious dangers, to try to develop more "feel".
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Yes, head for trees. When you can't see anything and can't tell if you are even going along or not, keep doing tight linked turns. The clear centrifugal forces in the turns seem to help somehow.
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Can someone tell me why the trees work?! I know that they clearly do, I just don't get the science of it, why fog lifts in amongst the trees.

In previous years I worked as a rep and in the welcome meeting used to give the "if the light is flat, head to the trees where its clearer" spiel. Always I'd get asked "why is that?" In fairness I used to make up a different answer each week, so going by the amount of different answers I gave I probably got it right once or twice....
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Basically it is just that you can see them when everything else just becomes a blank, so it gives you something solid to orient by and get some idea of the slope. Also the light (which becomes omnidirectional, so totally flat, gets channeled by the trees so you may be able to see contours a bit, and in a blizzard the wind may be less there.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 22-01-13 19:13; edited 1 time in total
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I understand the reference point bit, but its also noticeable that it can be 5m vis up above the treeline and then in amongst the trees it very often totally clears out to much better vis.
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I just edited my comment, so read the second half. And as you head down the hill it will usually be snowing a bit less heavily anyway
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Dav, I don't think the fog is necessarily less in the trees, just that the darkness of them provides some contrast to the whiteout everywhere else, which seems to help your eyes figure things out better.
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Quote:

I don't think the fog is necessarily less in the trees, just that the darkness of them provides some contrast to the whiteout everywhere else, which seems to help your eyes figure things out better.


I think this is right. In really thick fog (the sort where you can't see the chair in front of you on a lift) you can't see the trees either (unless you're too close to them!). But in lighter fog, which is much more common, they provide a reference - as trees grow upwards, they help you get a feel for everything, a "horizon". In very poor visibility it's sometimes impossible to work out which way is "up" without some kind of visual reference.

In poor conditions you do need to ski with careful "feel" for the ground, and the changes in pressure which tell you when, for example, you've hit a steeper section. Easier said than done but a ski lesson in those conditions (like we had in Tignes in October with Inside Out) is useful, helping you to "tune in" to what your feet are telling you. I found that very helpful.
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clarky999 wrote:
Dav, I don't think the fog is necessarily less in the trees, just that the darkness of them provides some contrast to the whiteout everywhere else, which seems to help your eyes figure things out better.


Yeah, I know what you're getting at but that's not quite what I mean. Perhaps its as simple as getting from above the treeline and into the trees often means that the change in elevation takes you below the worst of the fog level. Literally plenty of times when (at least in my head) I've barely been able to see the edges of the piste above the tree line but get down into the trees and suddenly the visibility completely opens up. I especially noticed it as in previous seasons I worked for TOs and took customers out on the mountain; above the tree line it was so easy to lose a group as you just couldn't see more than a few metres all around but down in the trees visibility was such that the entire group could easily stay together.

Who knows then. Maybe its just my perception.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

Perhaps its as simple as getting from above the treeline and into the trees often means that the change in elevation takes you below the worst of the fog level.

I think that does quite often happen, but it can be the other way round. I remember being on top of the small hill in Crest Voland (only 1650m) in nice bright sun, but just a few metres down the pistes, it was pea soup. Really difficult to navigate around, almost crashed into some chalets and realised I was way off the piste.
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pam w wrote:
Quote:

Perhaps its as simple as getting from above the treeline and into the trees often means that the change in elevation takes you below the worst of the fog level.

I think that does quite often happen, but it can be the other way round. I remember being on top of the small hill in Crest Voland (only 1650m) in nice bright sun, but just a few metres down the pistes, it was pea soup. Really difficult to navigate around, almost crashed into some chalets and realised I was way off the piste.


Had a similar thing coming down Double M in Tignes a few years back; going at a fair lick until we hit what we thought were light clouds but turned out to be 10 metre vis. I was up front and slowed off towards the side, only to see my snowboarder mate fail to control his speed and the last I saw of him was zooming past me and flying off the edge of the piste in mid air into the gloom. I literally thought he'd skied off a cliff! I got over there and found him a few metres off-piste stuck on his back in the powder crying with laughter. We retired for a beer after that.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Good regular pole plants will help a lot.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/skiing-tips/6979684/Off-piste-skiing-techniques-for-pole-walking.html
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Apart from the correct lens,( Yellow or vermillion work for me) When above the tree line you need to gain perspective of the terrain ( as others have mentioned) Skiing at the edge of the piste next to piste markers helps showing you clearly the changes in incline. generally the markers on a certain side will have a specific colour eg Avoriaz have orangey tips on the right of the piste (see back of piste map) and black and white when next to a cliff/ drop etc. I'm not sure if there is an alpine standard for these markings? Folowing someone else (not too) closely is equally helpful.
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Trees are fine if you are in a resort at tree level, on many occasions I've been in a white out/completely flat light there hasn't been a tree within miles.

I would sooner ski the worst ice imaginable than ski in flat light/whiteout. They are conditions that literally freak me out and I become genuinely 'scared'. I have skied down through positively dreadful conditions like it on a steep slope and just about got away with it - I think because I was aware that if I fell they wouldn't find me for another weeks. However, I did it very literally one short turn and stop, one short turn and stop repeat . Have I learned from the experience? I've no idea, and if I hit similar conditions I honestly don't know if I would feel any differently. I just hate the conditions and when it gets that bad no lens on earth is going to help.

I personally don't think there is a solution.

NB. 5m is positive luxury compared with the 0m vis that we skied in the story above. What I would have given for 5m that day.
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If you can't find any references then ski slowly and as if the fog wasn't there. Half the problem is that the loss of references means you end up confused about the slope angle and end up all sorts of wrongly balanced. Send the strongest skier in front, have them ski down as far as possible then stop, the others then ski to them and repeat. This gives everyone else a frame of reference.

The other thing is to make sure you get a rhythm going with you turns as that helps prevent over thinking your balance.

It's also very easy to go off course in these conditions so make sure you're able to tell where you're going. This is not fun near cliffs or on glaciers.
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I had an experience in zero viz where even though I was stationary my eyes/ brain where telling me that I was moving due to snow being blown past me at ground level. People crashing everywhere on way to lifts to download and get the hell out of there.
Yellow goggles don't seem to help me much BTW
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Quote:

Skiing at the edge of the piste next to piste markers helps

I've skied in conditions where it was completely impossible to see the markers till you were nearly on top of them - certainly couldn't see one from the other. But yes, the "starboard and port" markings, which I only found out about after skiing for several years in my area Embarassed are very helpful. Before I found out, I found myself right in front of a marker but wasn't sure which side to leave it. I chose the wrong one, and ended up to top of thighs in powder. I was petrified of losing my skis and very, very, carefully side-stepped back up to the piste. now, at any rate, I'd know which side to leave it. Something to always check, in a new ski area, how the posts are marked.

The answer,in those conditions, is to find a bar and sit in it. I don't think many people have any great appetite for skiing in such terrible visibility, though "flat light", though not very nice, can be dealt with by decent technique.
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roscoeh, are you racing on the Hahnenkamm this weekend? The racers there were complaining about bad visibility in training today (mist patches) and that with 20m visibility Laughing Laughing
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For me, pink lenses help, but they're not an amazing increase. Worst one for me was when I ended up going down a mogulled black without being able to see the floor! Luckily it wasn't too long a run, but dropping a foot randomly every couple of seconds or so was not the most fun I've ever had - but it was close!
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espri wrote:
roscoeh, are you racing on the Hahnenkamm this weekend? The racers there were complaining about bad visibility in training today (mist patches) and that with 20m visibility Laughing Laughing
Yes, but most people will be going 10mph in fog and they are going 60 - 80 (and momentum is proportional to speed Squared, if I remember rightly).


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 23-01-13 10:27; edited 1 time in total
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the thought of doing 60 - 80 mph in 20m visiblity is just horrendous (though the thought of doing that in bright sunshine is more than a little scary, too!)
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snowball wrote:
and momentum is proportional to speed Squared, if I remember rightly

You don't. wink

It is a linear relationship. Kinetic energy is proportional to speed squared though - and that's what matters when it goes down to zero on hitting a tree.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'm sure I saw a program on airline pilots, and what they can/can't see out of the window. I think the answer was that if it's clear blue skies at high altitude (nothing to look at but the big blue yonder) then your eyes focus at a fixed point in front of the plane, the distance being whatever they are most comfortable with. I think it was only a matter of a few feet. The trees must provide the distraction that your brain needs to keep your eyes focusing properly and not just shut down and start being lazy.
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laundryman, oh yes, I was thinking of kinetic energy and got muddled (forgot it wasn't the same thing).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
A wee tip I use to make sure I can also be seen it to put a small rear bike red LED light on the clip at read of helmet, couple of pounds and set it to flash mode and you at least can be seen from behind.
Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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marskey,

Why not put it on top so you can be seen from the front as well?

Make it a blue one and people will get out of your way Toofy Grin
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musher, OK, it sounds funny, but during my bete noir day I would have given a great deal to have had red lights on the group I was skiing with. I might have been able to see them 2 metres away rather than 50cm!!
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laundryman wrote:
I sometimes ski with my eyes shut, in normal visibility


Christ, isn't that normal? Confused


Toofy Grin
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chasseur wrote:
laundryman wrote:
I sometimes ski with my eyes shut, in normal visibility


Christ, isn't that normal? Confused


Toofy Grin


I only do it when I am scared.
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In low vis I find my HI Yellow lens good, plus snowboarding slowley with more feel and lots of small and regular turns, trying to keep an eye out of piste markers. Keeping other people in sights also helps provide reference.

In zero vis I find nothing helps and its really awful not knowing which way is up or down, and your brain being tricked by the snow blowing past you. Ugh.
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To answer the OP, no lens will let you see in such conditions. I have Oakley HI Yellow and these are like night vision goggles late afternoon when the sun is going down.

In low cloud (which is what fog is), they are as useless as any other lens.

Tree lined runs can help you gauge your speed but will not help you see a mogul or bomb hole. I get off the mountain when its like that.


Dav wrote:
We retired for a beer after that.


This is by far the best course of action in such conditions.
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Quote:

I get off the mountain when its like that.

me too. It's supposed to be fun. But sometimes there's quite a lot of skiing involved in "getting off the mountain" so practising skiing without much visual input can be very useful. Better than freaking out.
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I find that skiing along the very edge of the piste helps - using the transition of piste to powder as your reference, sometimes there is the tiniest bit of shadow at this point, sometimes you have to feel your way. This also makes it less likely that you will hare off the edge of the piste by mistake and head off into God knows what.
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Best advice is don't. Barring that ski low and in the trees. We did lots of skiing in really bad vis the other week in the Schneewinkl in the Tirol. Following piste marker to piste marker ends up in the bar having beer to beer Very Happy
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Polarised lenses help with flat light but don't make much difference in fog.
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Short, very controlled turns; don't sit back, and look up, not at your ski tips. Years of skiing in white-outs in St Anton has taught me how it can be done... and enjoyed - to an extent.
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