 Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
Are all piste rescue services completely free anywhere? Looking at a few Austrian examples, the Kappl website says "The piste and rescue service only monitors signposted and open ski pistes. A fee to cover costs is charged for first aid and for evacuation"
There's been a lot of discussion about this in recent years and always a fair bit of doubt, and different experiences. |
Where we've skied in Canada, piste rescue is included in the lift pass. I have a feeling this is the case across North America. Definitely no charge then or later when our son was checked over at Sunshine medical center last year.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
If they apply a different judgement for Brits based on the poor payment experience then we are effectively being denied a service for which we have paid by taking out insurance policies which claim to cover costs at that sort of level.
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That's a huge "if" and I know of no evidence at all that such choices are being made. However, anyone who is concerned can just pay the very small additional charge for Carte Neige. Job done for the price of a cup of coffee. I agree that late or reluctant paying insurance companies are behaving badly - but I have no doubt that there is a lot of fraud amongst customers too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
That's a huge "if" and I know of no evidence at all that such choices are being made. |
Me neither, and we're both skiing for long durations in predominantly French resorts - so if this was some anti-Brit conspiracy due to crappy British insurers, presumably we'd see a shedload more helicopters than we do, given that broken bones happen to French people too.
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Think I've mentioned this before, but when I was lifted off the mountain by heli there was no charge - that was because I was well away from a resort, and it was akin to being rescued by Air Sea Rescue back in the UK off Ben Nevis. Same is true if you ski in La Grave, or you twist your ankle when walking in the summer, or brain yourself doing down hill MTB in France.
Once at the hospital I produced my E111 card and proof of insurance and there were no issues. The only payment I had to make was in the pharmacy for brace, crutches and drugs.
My daughter Xmas eve was carried off the mountain in resort by blood wagon, cost 500 euro, and they kept her skis till she paid up. I always advise people to take out Carte Neige when they buy their lift pass as it can help to avoid a lot of hassle, plus have a valid E111 too.
Thing I couldn't quite get my head around this year, was that when buying your lift pass through a TO they do not give you the option to add Carte Neige to it, presumably because they want you to purchase their travel insurance ?
Me and the Mrs have quite comprehensive multi trip season insurance to cover ski touring and off piste without a guide, plus I have prior (ACL), so that has to be declared and that's damn expensive with premiums going up considerably every year though this year also had to have cancellation / baggage as doing a couple of trips by air and that put another £80 on the total.
All stupidly expensive, but as some one who has been carted off once, and should have been carted off once before, but was too nervous about the small print, and I hobbled out back then for a couple of miles, insurance is not something I take a chance on!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Thing I couldn't quite get my head around this year, was that when buying your lift pass through a TO they do not give you the option to add Carte Neige to it, presumably because they want you to purchase their travel insurance ?
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That's naughty of them, really. But you can buy it separately at the lift pass office. thing is, it won't then be printed on your pass, so you have to keep the receipt safely with the pass - rubber band or similar.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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For what it's worth, here is an extract from a well-established Val d'Isere chalet specialist's website (perhaps the same TO referred to by OP). I have never bought Carre Neige before because I hate paying twice for the same insurance, but this story makes me wonder.
"Nowadays we thoroughly recommend that you take out the Carré Neige insurance (€2.80 per day from your fourteenth birthday to your sixty-fifth, €2.40 for juniors and seniors) even though you already have travel insurance.
The reason for this is that the Val d'Isère mountain rescue service has had numerous problems extracting payment from British insurance companies, and now treats all British people as uninsured if they cannot show the approved French Carte Neige or Carré Neige cover. However well insured you may be, you will be brought down in a sledge if you are injured, while those with French insurance will get a free helicopter ride! This does not apply to life-threatening injuries, where everyone is treated the same, nor to short journeys with minor injuries, when a helicopter is unlikely to be called. But it did apply to our guest last year who managed to break both legs. She was being loaded into a sledge without analgesia (which the pisteurs cannot administer) when she happened to mention that she had taken Carré Neige. Immediately, a helicopter, a doctor and a shot of morphine were called! Less than 1% of skiers get injured nowadays, but those who do are very glad if they have taken Carré Neige."
After my only experience of (almost) needing a heli rescue because I had lost a ski  on a glacier miles off-piste, I asked my insurer if they would have met a claim and they said certainly not as I wasn't injured!! Luckily I found the ski with a last desperate probe just before the guide finished dialling the rescue service. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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hmm... the last OMG piste rescue on here was VAL Thorens now it's VAL d' Isere.
Must be a moral in there somewhere 
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A quick one from Italy.
Pal did his knee in a few days back, piste guys got him down in bloodwagon/ambulance took him to local hospital (Madonna di C) - no asking for this or that and no charge. The retention of skis issue did not rear its head, perhaps as they'd popped off on impact and no-one had a clue where they'd gone.
Saw v nice doctor who first asked for his EH111 and his passport (which he happened to have with him). He was charged something like e45 for the consultation which incl some kind of scan and much chit-chat; that is prob less than his excess so game-over.
He was v happy, esp as the doctor was hot and she praised him profusely for not being Russian.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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it does sound an awful lot like Lizzard was right (about the specific question of heli evacuation with carte neige, or not)
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 21-01-13 11:43; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fascinating debate about how people have been treated after accidents. I must admit I have only had one: on the Mont Blanc in Arc 1600 (armored and helmeted skier going too fast ran into me from behind. He belted off before anyone could catch him)
Anyway the blood wagen carried me down to the medical centre in Arc 1600 where I was treated. They took my details as did the pistuers and sent me back to the apartment. Since I was on my own I cannot recall if they kept my skis, but since I was not feeling like skiing at that point I didn't really care or notice. The next day I strolled along to the medical centre and security office and paid my bills by credit card (Arc 1600 is like that, everywhere is only a few hundred metres away).
I sent the bills of to my insurers and they paid up within a few months minus an excess and minus another hefty sum they got by making up their own fictitious exchange rate. Even though it was a French insurance company they refused to pay the bill in euros. This still angers me and makes me think Carre Neige might be better and cheeper
As to helicopter rescues. These are inherently dangerous machines, just witness the frequency they fall into the North Sea. If they call one of these out to you get worried. Actually get very worried.
DCG, IIRC the piste security staff carry morphine in their medical kit; you do not get more effective pain killer than morphine. I suspect they do not give it out too easily to save the deposits of vomit on the hill.
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I had a very similar experience in France as Rob@rar.
The injured skier, my daughter with a broken wrist, had her lift pass examined before anything else, when no Carre Niege was found I was asked how I was going to pay. I explained I had insurance but they said I would need to pay with credit card, I agreed. Then they checked her over to assess her injuries and radio'd for the stretcher sledge.
She was taken to lift station to wait whilst the rest of us skiid down. I went in and filled out forms and paid with credit card.
An ambulance was then called and took us to the medical centre where the doctor refused to examine my daughter until I paid 300 euros cash. He carefully explained where the nearest cash point was whilst my daughter screamed down his reception area. Callous swine.
A very distressing experience but at least my insurance paid up promptly on our return. I will never return to Alpe D Huez.
I'm sure thay probably would have evacuated my daughter and undertaken medical treatment if I had not been able to pay but the process would have been even more delayed and the people probably even more unhelpful and uncaring.
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You know it makes sense.
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why would anyone ski in France without Carte Neige??? It's about £3 a day ffs!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Standee wrote: |
| why would anyone ski in France without Carte Neige??? It's about £3 a day ffs! |
Closer to £2 actually.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ever season we hear the stories of being held to ransom by bandits of the pistes/medical centre/ambulance/hospital and I can sort of understand why a Brit may feel like that.
There is a big difference between Medical Provision in teh UK and France.. The UK has a thing called the NHS.. France does not.
As a French Resident in France if you go to your GP for a cough he invoices you around €25/55 for the pleasure, whereas a UK resident in the UK if you do manage to get an appointment to see your GP it's free!
In France if you go in an ambulance you are invoiced, in the UK if you go in an Ambulance it's free!
So,
From the Brit perspective; all of this comes as quite a shock to the Average Brit Abroad and when they find out they are quite stressed about their predicament so being asked for payment as well seems to be OTT!!
From the French perspective; they don't understand the Brits issue as they've grown up in a culture where you are expected to pay and over teh years they will have provided services and then not been paid so once bitten twice shy.
As for the OPs questions about Carre Niege...................... when we lived out there we didn't know any resident who didn't pay the €29? for Carre Niege cover for the whole season even if they had other insurances to cover rescue...... If the rescuers see you've got carre niege they know they will be paid, no question, no debate, no patient involvement, no hassle....... they fill out their paperwork, add your Carre Niege policy number (which is on your lift pass), you sign it, they send it off and are paid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| marcellus wrote: |
| when we lived out there we didn't know any resident who didn't pay the €29? for Carre Niege cover for the whole season even if they had other insurances to cover rescue...... . |
I've had a Carte Neige policy for years. Relatively small sum of money for a bit of peace of mind - the last thing I would want to be concerned with if I was seriously injured while skiing in France would be payment options for being evacuated off the hill. So I double up a bit on my insurance (I also have a regular annual travel policy), but not at an exorbitant cost.
I don't have a problem paying for these things, and I can understand why resort rescue might be a bit wary of relying on the insurance companies of overseas guests paying on time (or perhaps at all). So if you don't want to pay for a Carre/Carte Neige policy it seems sensible to make sure that you have some means of payment on you just in case you or someone in your party does need a bloodwagon and subsequent medical attention. At the very least carry a credit card, because some people have reported a requirement to pay the pisteurs on the day rather than leave name and address and be billed for it afterwards.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I imagine it's like car insurance over here in a way....
If you have a prang (that's not your fault) and the other car is from Poland with Polish Drivers, who would you rather the other car was insured with..... Direct Line, Aviva, Sheilas Wheels, etc etc or Фэнтези Страхование ?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| marcellus wrote: |
| when we lived out there we didn't know any resident who didn't pay the €29? for Carre Niege cover for the whole season even if they had other insurances to cover rescue...... . |
I've had a Carte Neige policy for years. Relatively small sum of money for a bit of peace of mind - the last thing I would want to be concerned with if I was seriously injured while skiing in France would be payment options for being evacuated off the hill. So I double up a bit on my insurance (I also have a regular annual travel policy), but not at an exorbitant cost.
I don't have a problem paying for these things, and I can understand why resort rescue might be a bit wary of relying on the insurance companies of overseas guests paying on time (or perhaps at all). So if you don't want to pay for a Carre/Carte Neige policy it seems sensible to make sure that you have some means of payment on you just in case you or someone in your party does need a bloodwagon and subsequent medical attention. At the very least carry a credit card, because some people have reported a requirement to pay the pisteurs on the day rather than leave name and address and be billed for it afterwards. |
indeed, the same people who don't get the insurance are probably the "all the gear, no idea brigade" that say they are "advanced" when they've done 6 weeks in the Alps and spent most of that moaning about the price of the beer.
If you don't take out adequate and relevant insurance then you deserve no sympathy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Randomly - is there an issue with double insuring? I believe* it's illegal for cars/houses over here - if only because each insurer can say the other is liable, and to avoid double pay outs ... so would a carte neige mean your insurer could refuse to pay and vice versa?
*just asked the internet. Apparently it's not? Hmm.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| OliviaDB wrote: |
| Randomly - is there an issue with double insuring? I believe it's illegal for cars/houses over here - if only because each insurer can say the other is liable, and to avoid double pay outs ... so would a carte neige mean your insurer could refuse to pay and vice versa? |
that is what Dog Tag are trying with me at the moment, saying my Go Pro is covered by my home insurance, so I've said "fair enough, refund my payment in full as you clearly don't insure what you say you do", we're still arguing.
I specifically paid for TRAVEL insurance for when I TRAVEL, next time I will buy a cheap as chips policy and then if I need to claim I wont expect them to pay out, expected more/better from Dog Tag.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 21-01-13 13:56; edited 1 time in total
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the doctor refused to examine my daughter until I paid 300 euros cash. He carefully explained where the nearest cash point was whilst my daughter screamed down his reception area.
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that must have been horrible, but couldn't be further from my own experiences. When my OH had a nasty eye infection, one year in October when the local medical centre was closed, I sat with the phone and the internet and contacted a random doctor in Albertville. We went to see him, he made a careful examination, prescribed an antibiotic ointment, said we were to go back if it wasn't markedly better in 72 hours and refused to take any payment at all. He said he hoped somebody would help him if he were ill in Britain! The antibiotic cost about €3 in the local pharmacy.
After my accident recently the doctor did two X rays, told me to come back in 3 days, said he'd bill me after that. When I saw his partner, on the return visit, he didn't have the earlier paperwork, and I just gave him the number to contact the French agent of International Rescue to get paid. I assured him that I would ensure they were paid, and could just pay directly myself if necessary, and claim from the insurance. The entire bill was nothing like €300.
I've had equally good experiences with that "cabinet" taking a baby with an URT infection - very kind, attentive, and not at all expensive. When a nephew broke his leg it was X-rayed and plastered on the spot, for not a lot of money.
I am frequently glad I don't inhabit a resort full of package-holiday Brits. It might sound a bit patronising, but some of them really do expect to be spoon-fed.
And insurance industry statistics prove there is an awful lot of fraudulent claiming - for which the rest of us pay, obviously.
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For us and the kids for 2 weeks (12 days) skiing I would be about £112. I've already shelled out £180 to Snowcard for an annual policy. I guess it depends how loaded you are but £300 is a lot of money for me to be forking out for something I am unlikely to get a return on. What I don't understand is why they don't just slip an extra Euro a day on everyone's pass and be done with it. And if you are outside the boundaries of the ski area it's picked up by normal mountain rescue. People should know where they stand. It's just too messy at the minute IMO.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
| For us and the kids for 2 weeks (12 days) skiing I would be about £112. I've already shelled out £180 to Snowcard for an annual policy. I guess it depends how loaded you are but £300 is a lot of money for me to be forking out for something I am unlikely to get a return on. What I don't understand is why they don't just slip an extra Euro a day on everyone's pass and be done with it. And if you are outside the boundaries of the ski area it's picked up by normal mountain rescue. People should know where they stand. It's just too messy at the minute IMO. |
If £300 is a lot of money to keep 4 people safe for a week, then I am afraid you can't afford to Ski, it really is as simple as that.
How much do you spend a year on TV channels you don't watch?
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Is it that messy? Carte Neige means you get rescue and ambulance without paying anything; other insurance means you may have to pay for rescue and ambulance up front and then claim it back.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Accept the advice given or don't bother, it's your choice you have been told. If it all go's belly up don't come running to me or a web forum with two broken legs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What I don't understand is why they don't just slip an extra Euro a day on everyone's pass and be done with it.
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because people would object to paying twice, and because a private sector company can hardly impose an inescapable tax on everyone in the resort, even in France?
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Carte Neige means you get rescue and ambulance without paying anything; other insurance means you may have to pay for rescue and ambulance up front and then claim it back.
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exactly.
I have Snowcard annual (£160, just for me.....) so decided not to get Carré Neige this time, for the first time. My experience suggests that was the right decision - I had no problems.
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Standee,
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| If £300 is a lot of money to keep 4 people safe for a week, then I am afraid you can't afford to Ski, it really is as simple as that. |
Actually it keeps them safe for 2 weeks  But before you get you all high and mighty... on a very crude estimate in my head I can do a weeks sking for £1500 for the 4 of us. So £150 for insurance for the week would be an additional 10% on the price of the holiday. Now, this seems to me a significant and hight cost for something that is called on infrequently. Maybe this is all to do with my innate distrust of insurance companies though.
miranda,
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| Is it that messy? Carte Neige means you get rescue and ambulance without paying anything; other insurance means you may have to pay for rescue and ambulance up front and then claim it back. |
You only to have to read this thread and others like it to see how messy it is. What many people are doing as a result is taking both CN and another insurance policy because they are unsure of what covers what.
jean claude mont blanc,
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| Accept the advice given or don't bother, it's your choice you have been told. If it all go's belly up don't come running to me or a web forum with two broken legs. |
You seem like a very rude person. Therefore I shall never try to rely on you for help.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Layne wrote: |
Standee,
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| If £300 is a lot of money to keep 4 people safe for a week, then I am afraid you can't afford to Ski, it really is as simple as that. |
Actually it keeps them safe for 2 weeks But before you get you all high and mighty... on a very crude estimate in my head I can do a weeks sking for £1500 for the 4 of us. So £150 for insurance for the week would be an additional 10% on the price of the holiday. Now, this seems to me a significant and hight cost for something that is called on infrequently. Maybe this is all to do with my innate distrust of insurance companies though.
miranda,
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| Is it that messy? Carte Neige means you get rescue and ambulance without paying anything; other insurance means you may have to pay for rescue and ambulance up front and then claim it back. |
You only to have to read this thread and others like it to see how messy it is. What many people are doing as a result is taking both CN and another insurance policy because they are unsure of what covers what.
jean claude mont blanc,
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| Accept the advice given or don't bother, it's your choice you have been told. If it all go's belly up don't come running to me or a web forum with two broken legs. |
You seem like a very rude person. Therefore I shall never try to rely on you for help. |
then please. let me know in advance where you're going on your Ski trips, it sounds to me like you can't really afford to be there and I don't want to bump into you on a lift, or in a bar. Actually, £1500 for a week for 4, I imagine you don't go to the resorts I do, which is a huge relief.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Layne wrote: |
What many people are doing as a result is taking both CN and another insurance policy because they are unsure of what covers what.
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Not sure how to respond to this without sounding like lizard
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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To throw another wild card into the equation, on top of the various other insurances we have for winter holidays we have ADAC plus breakdown cover for car and passengers, when my husband spoke to them just before our last holiday he specifically asked if we would all be covered for emergency medical evacuation whilst skiing, answer yes. I would have liked further information on how that would work but I hope I never have to find out in practice! I do have the distinct feeling that with the carre/carte neige we may be paying for 3 different lots of cover! I do wish it was all clearer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe this is all to do with my innate distrust of insurance companies though.
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I have no reason to distrust my insurance company, they've been excellent. Some people have found it unacceptable to be asked to pay on the spot for services. Fair enough, they can take CN and avoid having to do so (though this doesn't cover everything and is not a substitute for a comprehensive travel policy - and I don't think it would cover private ambulance services).
I do agree that the extra cost of CN for a family, for a couple of weeks, is significant, when the budget is tight, and there should be no need for it IF you have a good insurance policy and IF you are prepared to sort things out a bit yourself if necessary. If you speak no French, and go to small French resorts, then having the CN avoids having to do much talking!
It's not acceptable to sneer at people taking budget holidays, standee. When I took 3 kids on ski holidays we always chose the cheapest week in January, took kids out of school, could never afford "lunch on the slopes", shared a plate of chips etc etc. We would practically never sit 5 people down and buy a round of hot chocolates, vin chaud etc. There's nothing wrong with that, compared to people who think starting on the alcohol before noon and continuing till past midnight, skiing all day with a level of blood alcohol way above the driving limit, is acceptable.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| CaravanSkier wrote: |
| I do wish it was all clearer. |
So, you're sat there, being evac'd on a wagon, with a broken leg, shattered pelvis and broken arm (and I hope that never happens) will you really care if you're over insured?
Insurance is something we buy in the hope that we never need it, it's like the emergency oxygen on planes, we trust it's there and works, but we never really want to find out.
Ever tested the air bags on your car, "just to be sure"?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="pam w"]
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| It's not acceptable to sneer at people taking budget holidays, standee. |
Up to you, skiing is expensive for a reason, it's an extreme sport. Would you go motor racing knowing the driver in the other car used tie wraps instead of welding?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Standee wrote: |
| CaravanSkier wrote: |
| I do wish it was all clearer. |
So, you're sat there, being evac'd on a wagon, with a broken leg, shattered pelvis and broken arm (and I hope that never happens) will you really care if you're over insured?
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Of course not, and we all always hope that bad things don`t happen. I accept that I have probably been over insured many times in my life but it does not mean I don`t resent it.
Skiing holidays are not cheap and can be particularly hard for families to afford. We took ours in a caravan for years, it was the only way we could afford it. If the whole insurance situation had been clearer we may have been able to save a little money and perhaps had an extra meal out!
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| CaravanSkier wrote: |
| had been clearer we may have been able to save a little money and perhaps had an extra meal out! |
did you ever ask the insurer(s) to clarify things?
not having a pop, a genuine question, a lot of the time in my profession I get "if I'd known" to which I respond "did you ask"?
We're becoming worse (and I include myself in this) we don't ask questions, we don't seek clarification and then when something goes wrong we bemoan "not having been told in advance", personal responsibility seems to be slipping away by the decade.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 21-01-13 15:35; edited 1 time in total
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Would you go motor racing knowing the driver in the other car used tie wraps instead of welding?
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That's absurd, as is the suggestion that family ski holidays are an "extreme sport". We've already established to the satisfaction of most contributors to this thread that anyone with the kind of serious multiple injuries you describe is going to get the optimum treatment available to them before any questions are asked about their insurance.
Layne has an annual policy with Snowcard, a top insurer (same one as I have). The fact that he doesn't spend hundreds of pounds on booze during his ski holidays makes him a safer, rather than less safe, skier to my mind. Would you rather share your exclusive slopes with a drunken skier with CN or a sober one with a good quality policy who has had a cheese sandwich for his lunch?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
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Would you go motor racing knowing the driver in the other car used tie wraps instead of welding?
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That's absurd, as is the suggestion that family ski holidays are an "extreme sport". We've already established to the satisfaction of most contributors to this thread that anyone with the kind of serious multiple injuries you describe is going to get the optimum treatment available to them before any questions are asked about their insurance.
Layne has an annual policy with Snowcard, a top insurer (same one as I have). The fact that he doesn't spend hundreds of pounds on booze during his ski holidays makes him a safer, rather than less safe, skier to my mind. Would you rather share your exclusive slopes with a drunken skier with CN or a sober one with a good quality policy who has had a cheese sandwich for his lunch? |
you don't see skiing as an extreme sport, family holiday or otherwise?
I'd rather share the slopes with people who take out adequate cover, drunk or otherwise.
But hey, I'd also rather all snowboarders and people who don't wear helmets were shot at the first lift.
it's an opinion, nothing more.
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pam w,
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yes, the international rescue people have been very good.
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Sorry to hear about your accident, get well soon! But you had the Thunderbirds????Which one???
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FAQ
If they have more evidence than that, they should say so...
