 Poster: A snowHead
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On a recent trip to VdI we were advised by the TO (and I'm sure this was genuine) to take out the Carre Neige insurance premium with ski passes. They had advised against this in prior years as it only provides cover that you would have anyway with a decent policy. This adds about 2 euro per day per person.
The rationale is that UK insurance companies have apparently been slow paying claims to the mountain rescue organisation and sometimes disputing the claims. The result is that if a Brit is injured on the mountain with a serious but not life threatening injury (e.g. broken leg) they will take the casualty down the mountain in a sled and then transfer by ambulance to medical centre. If the person had Carre Neige then a heli + doctor (important as they can administer morphine or equivalent) would come.
I sympathise with the mountain rescue organisation if they are not being treated properley by UK insurers, but this does seem a very bad state of affairs. And, of course, it's the consumer that suffers.
I'm sure there must be some Snowheads who can add to this either from personal experiences or who work in the insurance industry.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I keep hearing this from British skiers, so I asked one of our pisteurs about it and he rolled on the floor laughing. Consider how it works: the assistance company guarantees payment to all the relevant providers (piste rescue, ambulances etc etc) if authorised to do so by the insurer. If authorisation and a guarantee is not forthcoming, or they don't like the payment schedule, the provider just charges you on the spot for the service they have rendered, leaving you to argue with your insurance company.. Your problem, not theirs, so no particular reason for them to change their safety procedures just for you.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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To be honest, a sled sounds appropriate if it's not life threatening. I wouldn't expect a helicopter.
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I was rescued just over a week ago. snowcard insurance, no carré neige. I was immobilised and taken to the medical centre, which wasn't far. They took some details from me (name and address) but absolutely no question of paying on the spot. They didn't ask me if I had Carré Neige (though the doctor did, when I got there). They were extremely pleasant, reassuring and professional. They did take a while to arrive, but I was quite comfortable sitting on the snow, as long as nobody tried to make me stand up.
It's a bit daft to suggest that a helicopter and a doctor would automatically be flown to every serious but not life threatening injury. I had a fractured pelvis, not that far from the medical centre. They made me comfortable on the stretcher, and immobilised me. I've only ever seen a helicopter come in to a casualty twice, in ten seasons of skiing here. One was a guy who had what looked like a v serious fall on a jump and they were obviously concerned about spine/neck injury. The other had fallen into the safety net at the top of the horrible two way chair across the road at Notre Dame de Bellecombe. Two lifts, and a fair few skiers, were stopped for well over an hour as they sorted that one. It would be a bit crazy to do that every time anyone had a fracture - something that happens frequently.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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AFAIK a chopper is not automatic with Carte or Carre Neige, that's a myth. The majority of victims are still blood-wagoned. Basically the ski patrol assess the situation and use the appropriate evacuation method. And, half the time, the chopper either can't see or has nowhere safe to land that's nearby.
I prefer skiing in countries where they rescue first and ask questions later and where they don't impound people's property (like skis) until the bill is paid.
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| Quote: |
It's a bit daft to suggest that a helicopter and a doctor would automatically be flown to every serious but not life threatening injury.
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That ...
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a sled sounds appropriate if it's not life threatening. I wouldn't expect a helicopter.
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.... and that .....
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a chopper is not automatic with Carte or Carre Neige, that's a myth.
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.... and that ....
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I prefer skiing in countries where they rescue first and ask questions later
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.... and that'd be France then.
For the umpteenth time, the secouristes don't give a monkey's about your insurance status. Their job is to get you off the hill by whatever method is safest for both you and them.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| For the umpteenth time, the secouristes don't give a monkey's about your insurance status. Their job is to get you off the hill by whatever method is safest for both you and them. |
Do they expect to be paid? If so, when and how?
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Do they expect to be paid? If so, when and how?
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At the end of the month by the lift company, like the rest of us.
They will at some point take your contact details, and the office will then bill you if appropriate. How else would you expect things to proceed?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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I prefer skiing in countries where they rescue first and ask questions later
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.... and that'd be France then.
For the umpteenth time, the secouristes don't give a monkey's about your insurance status. Their job is to get you off the hill by whatever method is safest for both you and them. |
It appears to vary resort to resort but, yes, la belle France. Some are known to ask for money there and then (there are threads on this very organ about that) and I have witnessed the practise of holding onto people's equipment until their bill is paid. Unpleasant way to treat resort guests IMO.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| How else would you expect things to proceed? |
What I've seen, first hand, on a couple of occasions is payment there and then at the point at which they drop you off at the medical centre.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, ours don't actually carry credit card machines about with them, and I can't imagine everyone out there is carrying 500€ in cash either. Demanding instant payment on the spot would be a totally impractical way of doing it, and you'd get so many complaints you couldn't deal with them all. How do you think the average French skier (most of whom have insurance other than that sold by the lift company) would react to that one?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Lizzard, I'm simply reporting what I've seen.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| How do you think the average French skier (most of whom have insurance other than that sold by the lift company) would react to that one? |
Is it inconceivable the rescue people treats non-french differently because too many foreign tourists (not neccessarily Brits, could be Bulgarien or Greek  ) don't have insurance and doesn't pay when the bill arrives later?
Seem I keep hearing two versions of events. Those familiar with France, presummably speaks some French, reported never been asked to prove they have the means to pay. While those infrequent visitors got asked. Perhaps the "France regulars" are being treated as locals not as bill-dodging foreigners?
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, or maybe they just get what's going on and don't report back garbled half-understood versions of the wrong end of the stick?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Those familiar with France, presummably speaks some French, reported never been asked to prove they have the means to pay.
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I was able to speak French to my rescuers - not brilliantly, but enough. But they had no way of knowing whether I was a "France regular" - they didn't ask, just as they didn't ask whether I had Carré Neige or any other insurance. Once I was looked after, and in the Medical Centre, they asked me to fill in a form. Fair enough, I don't see why the French taxpayer should foot the bill of ferrying me off the mountain. After a sojourn in the medical centre I was taken home in a private ambulance, and I had to pay them - €62, quite a bargain, really, for a specialised vehicle and two skilled operatives. The doctor told me about that before I left the medical centre and as they took credit cards that was no problem. Insurance will pay it eventually, minus my excess. The piste rescue cost about the same but the insurance paid that direct - or at least, they've guaranteed the payment but had not received an invoice from piste rescue, last time I spoke to them.
AFAIK Carré Neige is an insurance company, not some kind of French government charity. They'd soon be bankrupt if they sent a chopper out to everyone with a fracture.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My only experience of this is 10 years old, but I don't suppose things have changed too much. My wife fell and broke her leg; she was taken to the road/base area on a sled towed by skidoo; assessed in the secouristes' office and an ambulance called to take her to the village (Samoens); treated by the doctor. The only thing we paid for up front was the prescriptions - I don't thnk we even paid the doctor's fees immediately. The doctor called an ambulance to get us back to our hotel. Any insurance documents would have been in our hotel room, so definitely not seen before rescue or treatment.
When we got home we claimed on the insurance. At this point things got silly as our insurers took months to pay out - no quibble about the claim just rubbish. The commune sent increasingly threatening letters (including threats to seize property, lucky we don't have any in France!).
Of course if there were a threat not to rescue/treat me, I would point out I'm Irish, which I'm sure would work!
Just remembered we had to pay for the second ambulance ride as it was 'transport', but as that was from the village centre there was no problem getting cash and they took cards (as I recall).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Did someone tell you that in a pub?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When we got home we claimed on the insurance.
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did you not tell them about the accident till you got home? It's a primary rule that you must contact them immediately and do as they say (e.g. when I needed a second ambulance trip for an assessment after 3 days, they called their own ambulance up from Sallanches, not the same firm as was used to take me home).
My sister in law made that mistake, after an unlucky accident (fell at top of chairlift during ski lesson, ruptured ACL). They did all sorts of stuff without informing insurance, including turning up at Gva for booked easyJet flight but not being able to travel because she needed 3 seats, overnight in Gva hotel, extra car hire, etc etc etc They kept all the receipts but insurance documentation is always clear about the need to inform them immediately and get their go-ahead before incurring any expenditure beyond the immediately urgent stuff.
Also, of course, some insurance companies are much better than others. Snowcard are very good.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We paid the extra €29 for the insurance with my season pass (in addition to having "proper" insurance). Yes, they did ask if I had it, but only after the very sweet pisteur lass had dragged me as far as the ambulance. Filled out the very brief form, the ambulance crew filled out theirs, and I was given the form I need to make a claim there and then.
Had to pay up front for the doctor's fees and prescription, but they are also covered.
So, if my OH's experience with them 2 years ago is anything to go by, they pay out within 7-10 days, and that's the end of it. €29 outlay to cover €342 sledge ride, €148 ambulance trip, and €275 worth of doctor and prescriptions, plus a €475 refund on a lift pass, all within 2 weeks, with no grief? I'd say it was worth it!
And I don't know if I would have been treated any differently had I been French, but I can't fault the attitude or treatment I received. (And I would have been mortified if I had been put in a helicopter for a relatively minor fracture!)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
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When we got home we claimed on the insurance.
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did you not tell them about the accident till you got home? . |
Probably - I do recall our mobile bill was high (largely because I think she called all her friends for sympathy). Really, though, it was quite a time ago. My point was that we didn't have to either pay up front or prove we had insurance, in order to get rescued and treated.
The only other 'rescues' we've had have all been in Canada, which is different (son twice, wife once).
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I had a ride in the blood wagon 3 weeks ago in Tignes after damaging both knees fairly badly. No payment was required upfront, I filled out some invoicing paperwork whilst waiting in the doctor's surgery and the pisteurs looked after my skis til we paid the €500 bill later that day - I thought that was quite a good thing really as my other half was busy co-ordinating calls to my insurers and I was in no state to carry them!
I'm now busy claiming my €800 back from the insurers, so fingers crossed on that front.
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Are all piste rescue services completely free anywhere? Looking at a few Austrian examples, the Kappl website says "The piste and rescue service only monitors signposted and open ski pistes. A fee to cover costs is charged for first aid and for evacuation"
There's been a lot of discussion about this in recent years and always a fair bit of doubt, and different experiences.
rayscoops wrote the following in the thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=60334
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Edit - In Solden for example there is the Sölden Slope Rescue Card which give free rescue ........ otherwise you pay the costs below
Sölden Slope Rescue Card € 11,00 per person Rescue service is free for injured persons within the entire Sölden Ski Area (Gaislachkogl, Giggijoch/Hochsölden and the Glacier Ski Area). Depending on the gravity of the injury, the rescue card includes transportation by ski lift, Akja sleds, ambulance or the Sölden Rescue Helicopter (Alpin 2) to the nearest doctor in Sölden or if necessary to the next hospital.
COST OF RESCUE SERVICES:
Pre-Winter/Winter (with the opening of the winter skiarea):
1. Transportation by piste rescue/rescue services to the nearest docor in Sölden: Rescue from zone 1(Gaislachkogl-Mittelstation, Giggijoch-Bergstation, valley areas) € 100,-
Rescue from zone 2(Heidebahn, Gampe, Golden Gate) € 150,-
Rescue from zone 3(Glacier ski areas) € 250,-
2. Transportation by the Sölden rescue helicopter (Alpin 2) to the valley and transport to the nearest doctor in Sölden:from all zones € 1.360,- |
There seem to be various different local options and arrangements for buying insurance locally, similar to Carte Neige. Flangesax pointed out in that thread that some ambulance journeys are "NHS" some private, and payable.
The moral has to be that having good insurance - and reading the small print - is vital.
aussie82. that sounds painful. Hope the insurance pays up OK.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| abc, or maybe they just get what's going on and don't report back garbled half-understood versions of the wrong end of the stick? |
I had no problem understanding what was being asked in terms of payment for the rescue service. They wanted payment, not proof of name and address. They asked to see the lift pass of the injured skier (in Les Arcs), I'm guessing to see if Carre Neige had been bought, and then said they needed paying. Their office was next to the medical centre, where they took payment by credit card.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, nonsense, Lizzard knows exactly what happens in every ski resort and on every slope in France, and it's not what you've just described. 
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rob@rar, and had you told them you had no means of payment at that point, no doubt they wouold have taken your details and sent you a bill later. Or possibly taken your skier back up the hill and left him there.
Pedantica, try to employ some common sense. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Once somebody has been taken to a medical centre, in the best way in the circumstances, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that the rescue service needs to take reasonable steps to ensure they get paid. In my case they kept my skis (which was no problem to me, and one less thing for my brother in law to have to worry about). If I'd wanted the skis back right away I could have paid the €64 by credit card.
I decided not to get Carré Neige this year, as I have a very good UK insurance policy, and in making that decision I knew perfectly well that it might mean my doing some "upfront" payment, before claiming back from insurance. I just don't see that that is a problem - and for anyone for whom it IS a problem, the very simple and cheap remedy is to shell out the cost of a coffee each day for Carré/Carte Neige.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The information the OP was given about helicopters and CN is obviously nonsense. There seems to be an assumption from some that piste rescue asking you for insurance details or payment in a non-emergency situation is a really bad thing to do, though, which I don't really agree with. The only person I know who had the rescue guys call the insurance people there and then, had a non life-threatening, non-emergency situation but the nice rescue people thought a helicopter would make life more comfortable for the injured skier, who was not in danger at the time and did not have an injury that normally would have required air ambulance. Surely piste rescue people are there to help you out of danger. Why would they not ask for insurance details or payment when you are safe? The lovely guy who rescued me last season did ask me whilst we were still on the hill if I had insurance, after he had already assessed me and immobilized my leg. There was absolutely no implication that he was going to leave me there if I said no, but presumably would have reminded me that the sledge down wasn't free if I didn't have insurance.
I wonder if the drunk guy who climbed up the chairlift in Val d'Isere and had to get rescued by the fire brigade (rather than piste rescue) in the early hours of the morning got a bill?
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pam w, yep, the rescue service in Meribel kept my brother-in-law's skis after his accident (he didn't have Carre Neige).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| ... and had you told them you had no means of payment at that point, no doubt they wouold have taken your details and sent you a bill later. Or possibly taken your skier back up the hill and left him there. |
Or, "go and get a credit card and we'll look after your skis while your friend are being treated in the medical centre next door".
But, clearly I'm an idiot with too little experience of skiing to grasp what was happening, and my English is too poor to understand the very excellent English that the pisteur was talking to me in. I'm truly sorry for intruding on your explanation of how skiing works in France. My experience clearly isn't worthy enough to share with other people.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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3 years ago I tore a calf muscle at the bottom of BelAir in Courchevel. The pisteurs took me to the road in 1650 where an ambulance took me to the doctor. I filled in a form and was requested to pay the bill of nearly 500 euro (for piste rescue and ambulance) at the office in Courchevel. The doctor required payment for his services at the time and so did the chemist for the prescription. No-one wanted nor kept my skis. The UK insurance company paid all the claim very quickly.
In Val d'Isere a few years ago i had an xray at the medical centre and they insisted I left something as security so that I would return and pay my bill but I had neither cash nor credit card with me at the time.
It does seem to vary depending on the place and the circumstances but The only real horror stories I've heard have turned out to be apocryphal.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It does seem to vary depending on the place and the circumstances but The only real horror stories I've heard have turned out to be apocryphal.
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I think that pretty well sums it up. those of us who ski in places like France and Austria (and probably Italy too, but I have no experience of accidents in Italy) are very fortunate. Highly skilled piste rescuers, and helicopters if we need them, as well as excellent medical services, are ready to sort us out, when we get it wrong. Everybody should read their small print and make informed choices about insurance cover.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, I've only just seen about your accident - I hope you are up & about again soon 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| It does seem to vary depending on the place and the circumstances but The only real horror stories I've heard have turned out to be apocryphal. |
There were reports here from a sH about particularly "insistent" behaviour from pisteurs in Val Thorens (e.g. being escorted to a cash machine as they would not accept payment by credit card; may even have been some doubt about level of rescue services offered, but my memory is a bit hazy on that now). It provoked quite a bit of discussion at the time, and several corroborating accounts. This was quite a while ago, though, so they may have softened their act since then. It may also have been a case of "special treatment", as the person in question was at least as "uncompromising" as Lizzard
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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genepi, thanks - it's getting steadily better and I don't yet have cabin fever after ten days in my little place. A lot easier than my three storey town house at home would be. My insurance would repatriate me, but they are content for me to stay here a bit longer and arrange for sister and brother in law to fly out, get a taxi from Geneva, and drive me home. Probably with a lightweight folding wheelchair. I'll submit the receipts when I get back - the guy in the international rescue centre thought it would probably cost less than repatriating me. Sensible flexibility. To repatriate me by air they'd need a certificate of "fitness to fly" which would entail another ambulance journey, so all in all my way will be cheaper and gets my car home.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, excellent arrangement, so glad the insurance company are playing ball.
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pam w, that's really good. Insure and Go would not show me the flexibility Snowcard have shown you, even though the repatriation was MUCH more expensive than the alternative.
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I was rescued in Val T last year, and they were great. Bloodwagoned to a road, where an ambulance was waiting, however they did take my skis and make sign a form before I was allowed to go anywhere in the ambulance. I didnt have carre neige, but paid the money up front (about £850) for certain things and my insurance company covered all the costs when I got back to the UK.
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miranda, Pedantica, yes, the international rescue people have been very good. Supportive and sensible. I don't know how much is down to them, and how much to the actual insurer (snowcard in my case) but snowcard insurance was also very good, years ago, when daughter in law did an ACL injury in Les Gets. As to the Val Thorens example, I frankly don't believe that any Piste Rescue organisation in such a big resort couldn't take credit cards. the guys on the sled probably couldn't, but they have offices, computers, desks, that sort of thing. My ambulance chaps could take a credit card. Maybe the person who complained had got stroppy about being unwilling to go and pay in the office and blustered about his insurance and they just got fed up with him. I was given directions to the nearest cashpoint (8 miles away) by a policeman, when I was caught for speeding. He kept my passport to make sure I went back with the €80. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, how very dare you contradict the Oracle of the Alps (or should that be Medusa?). She asked a pisteur, don't you know, who conveniently just happened to be the official spokesman for all pisteurs across France, and probably Austria too. Nothing the likes of you or I or anyone else have ever experienced or witnessed counts for a hill of beans compared to a chat with one pisteur. Now please keep quite and return to your utterly non-relevant occupation of ski instruction.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 20-01-13 18:32; edited 1 time in total
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Spent the day out on the slopes, hence the delay in rejoining this debate that I kicked off. I suppose there were two points I was trying to make, but obviously not clearly enough.
First, it seems wrong that UK insurance companies are behaving in such a bad way - having taken our money in the form of premiums but not then being fair with the resort based rescue services. This then reflects badly on us as the Brits on the spot.
Second, whatever other posters may feel about the rights and wrongs of having a heli rescue (will come back to that later) it is clear that there will be a hurdle level at which the rescue service might deem it right to use that service. If they apply a different judgement for Brits based on the poor payment experience then we are effectively being denied a service for which we have paid by taking out insurance policies which claim to cover costs at that sort of level.
As to whether a heli is justified, it seems to me that if you've broken both legs then a ride on a sled with no effective painkiller behind a pisteur might just be a bit more painful and a lot longer than a direct heli to hospital. Now someones going to come along and tell me not to be a wimp. A bit of pain's good for you.
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FAQ
