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First forays into the world of the off-piste skier...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Right, I feel that I am now confident enough with the advanced techniques to ski any groomed run and want to look at getting into the domain of the off-piste skier.
I know that I should probably hire a guide for the first couple outings and that is what I will do. However, just how much different/difficult is the transition from piste to off-piste?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It's over rated... don't bother...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hornster, Have a look at an off-piste course - Phil Smith (Snoworks), for example. But as parlor, said, having all that fluffy stuff flying around really isn't as good as a good book..... wink
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If I was you, I'd hire a ski instructor and get an off-piste lesson. Guides aren't always the best teachers of technique (although some are very good). If you want tips on avalanche safety, moving over glaciated terrain and all that good stuff, a guide is your man though

Off piste takes a bit of getting used to but it's not that hard unless the snow is very deep, or unpleasant in some other way (eg deep slush, breakable crust). I'd say it's all about making adjustments - feeling the snow and what the skis are doing and adapting your technique accordingly. It requires a bit more feel than just locking into a carved turn and holding on until you're ready for the next turn.

There's quite a good article by Mark Jones in Ski and Board this month about skiing deep snow - worth checking out. I reckon the most important thing he says is "speed is your friend"!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Hornster,

Yep, everything that Arno said and just to quantify that you need to commit to it. You may think you will go too fast so try and chop the turn and not link them. This will make every turn sequence harder as you are in effect starting the turn from scratch. You want to carry the momentum and rhythm from the previous turn into the next one. You are more likely to fall by catching a ski whilst turning against the flow of the turn than just linking them into - hopefully - nice s's. Even if you want big GS turns then don't try and fight gravity too hard.

Ideally find a fresh snow day as even the most basic of turns will work here - even a snowplough. Getting started in all this whilst it is snowing is great for forgiving snow and getting a feel for the skis even if the vis is bad.... And perservere..!!
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I agree on the speed front. Off piste is really about momentum and stability, which is why people often mention 'rhythm' when talking about off piste. You need a certain degree of momentum to overcome the tendency of unpisted snow to knock you over and pull your skis under. Requires some guts to go fast enough, not super fast but probably more quickly than you will be comfortable with at the beginning.

Core ski technique is the same, since core technique these days means stand evenly in your boots rather than lean forward against your shins(hence the old style, lean back off piste idea). As Arno says, off piste is about feel. It is so much better then piste it is ridiculous. A monster powder day will stay with you for ever.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks for all the sound advice.

It has made me want to get out there NOW and taste the "other side", the "hallowed side" that is reserved for the truly commited!!

In a way i'm crapping myself, but then again, it's an excited, adventurous sort of crapping myself. I am hoping that the fact I have been mountaineering in the alps and greater ranges for a good number of years now will compliment my off-piste development.

Very Happy
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Hornster, So what you really want to do is ski touring ? Laughing
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Speed can be helpful in powder. But there's a lot more to off-piste than that (although you might not think so from reading some comments above Toofy Grin ). My old mucker Ali would threaten to throw punters off his course for travelling too fast when off piste. Speed may be your friend, but hidden rocks, cliffs and holes definitely aren't.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 24-10-05 12:51; edited 1 time in total
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
ski, PLEASE don't encourage Hornster to go ski touring until he's got at least some proficiency off piste

edit: sorry that sounds v elitist. the main point is that in a day of ski touring (with no lift assistance) you'll be doing well to get 1200m vertical of skiing. using lifts you can get 4-5000m without too much difficulty. a lot of it is just practice so earning your turns isn't a very efficient way of getting the necessary milage. there are of course safety considerations etc but I reckon Hornster will be well aware of this from his mountaineering
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No worry about me going ski touring...i'm not even certain I know what they involves other than having a different type of ski and technique!!

Although, I have always wanted to get into ski mountaineering which would go brilliantly with my mountaineering experience. We'll see once I have spent a bit of time learning the art of off-piste skiing.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Alan Craggs,

Not quite sure what you mean? Ski slowly off piste? Lose all your momentum and make life really difficult for yourself? No-one is talking about caning it, just that you need a degree of speed greater than you first imagine.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Hornster, not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet - just had a quick scan of the above - but the surface area of your skis has some influence on how easy you want to make it. Basically, wide skis float better and turn easier in deep snow (though they are sluggish to turn from edge to edge on the piste).

I spent years on monoskis in the late 1970s and early 1980s, which are almost 3 times the surface area of a pair of skis. Huge fun, but now unfashionable and mocked!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
David Goldsmith,

As you know from my thread on the Equipment forum, I have just bought a new pair of skis. What I didn't mention in that same thread is that I made sure that they were a freeride ski that I can ski both on piste as well as to accomodate my forthcoming forays onto off-piste terrain. I have also done my homework on the various ski specifications etc. I also tested the same skis at Xscape which, although isn't a true reflection on the ski or my ability to use them effectively, they did feel awesome when I got agreessive with them!!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hornster,
Quote:

i'm not even certain I know what they involves other than having a different type of ski and technique!!



Nope - same skis - you just have bindings that can be released at the heel to walk on, and 'skins' to stick on your bases to facilitate going uphill.

Other than the kick turn, that's all that's different snowHead

Mountain Tracks do some introductory courses too - or hire a guide.

Arno, y not ?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hornster, going back to your first post - deep snow has two influences on the ski:

1 Obviously the skis sink a bit, and you need a little 'up-unweighting' to lift the skis between turns. It's a kind of bouncy action, where the timing of the pole planting is much more disciplined than it needs to be on piste.

2 The skis can't skid - because they've got snow on each side of them. That's why the technique of skiing powder is a 'steered' or - if you like - 'carved' turn. In that sense it's simply the same technique as good piste skiing.

You will find that instruction is particularly valuable at this stage. What you have to avoid is the classic temptation to sit back and lever the backs of the boots to elevate the ski tips. Tempting, and it kind of works on gentle/moderate terrain, but it all goes to pieces when it gets steeper.

Balance needs to be centred somewhere around the ball of the foot/centre of foot.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ski, the reason in my edit plus i've been on a couple of tours with people whose skiing wasn't up to it. it was a bit irritating having to wait for them to pick themselves up when they fell over all the time - not so bad. but there was one situation where it was actually quite dangerous - a descent which should have taken about 10 mins took over an hour which was no laughing matter on a warm day with a walk along the bottom of an avalanche prone valley to look forward to. the idea had been to get there ASAP and get clear of it before the day warmed up - this was somewhat compromised.

thing is, it's not so much about having beautiful technique in these situations. it's about having a way of dealing with the situation even if it's doing traverses and kick turns, lots of sideslipping etc

on the other sub-topic reckon Hornster might have been confusing Nordic touring with Alpine touring. The distinction (if any) between alpine touring and ski mountaineering really is a topic for a rainy day snowHead
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Arno, Good points. snowHead I've been in similar situations to you Shocked Although in my experience folk with climbing/moutaineering make much better partners than other. snowHead

Nice photos by the way ! snowHead
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David Goldsmith,

You obviously have loads of experience and therefore know what you are talking about. Looks as though i'm going to have start all over again!! Only this time it will be off-piste.

Thanks again.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Hornster, I assume that you will be going on a short holiday when you are skiing again (as opposed to doing a season).

For you first day, don't bother to hire a teacher to bring you off-piste. Use the first day to get your ski legs back. This will involve skiing more blues and red than you probably did on your last day out last season. Don't worry about this, but use the blues and reds to check out new lines. The blues in particular will meander all over the mountain. When you are feeling confident with your skiing, cut off one of the corners as the piste curves around. You will be then skiing off-piste, but you will never be further that 100 metres or so from the piste.

Also ask any mates that live in the area were you are going if there are some nice easy off-piste tracks that you are good enough to ski at the moment. They'll know the area pretty well and will know what you are capable of skiing.

Also go to the edge of the piste and go outside the marker poles. This is the easiest way to go off-piste and you are never very far from safety.

When you get a bit more confident, hire a teacher for a morning. Don't even bother with the whole day, becuase generally it's more difficult to ski off-piste, and if you are skiing hard for the morning, take an easier afternoon and come back the next morning to give it laldy

Smile
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smolo wrote:
Also go to the edge of the piste and go outside the marker poles. This is the easiest way to go off-piste and you are never very far from safety.

Don't let your proximity to the piste lull you into a false sense of security. This quote is from Henry's Avalanche Talks which highlights aspects of avalanche risks:
Quote:
Since Henry has been living in the French Alps (about 13 years), most of the accidents and resulting deaths that he has witnessed have occurred right next to the piste, due to ignorance. They could therefore have been avoided. If you are a good skier or snowboarder who mostly skis on the piste and you play around next to the piste, then you are a prime candidate for an accident. The same goes for climbers: statistics show that the typical victim of an avalanche is a male in his mid-late 20's, has a good level of knowledge about skiing, boarding or climbing, but very little knowledge about avalanches.
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I agree with Rob. Be very careful off piste. I have skied with experts and they have said "do not go there" and I have not had a clu as to why. A few minutes later you look the same slope from a different viewpoint and can see the problem, it may be rocks or drops or any of a host of other things. Good guides see such things from almost invisible clues.

Which resort are you going to? Perhaps members of Snowheads could advise you on good ski schools or ski teachers in that resort.

Consider teaching holidays. The Ski Club has some great introduction to off piste holidays. You could even ski with a Ski Club rep in a resort, they never teach but they do wait patiently while you fall over. If you tell them you have not skiied off piste before they will probably keep a special eye out for you.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Off -Piste doesn't mean just powder, its anything that the mountain / conditions can throw at you, and the reason most stick to the prepared runs is that you invariable only have to concentrate on one or two conditions on a fairly flat surface. Off Piste is about sking in different conditions, slab, breakable crust, ice, and of course powder. They all require a different technique.
I would echo in getting some proper tuition, that also includes the safety aspects, and use someone reputable, like Phil Smith at Snowworks, sounds like his Back Country week would suit you, and they provide all the safety equip as well.
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I fell down a five foot hole in what I regarded as "safe" off piste, out of sight of my mates. Took me ages to dig myself out (no shovel no nothing). Looking back I'm quite glad it happened as I learned a very good lesson and came away unhurt.

I'm hoping to book an off pite course in the next month, the Snoworks backcountry is on the shortlist.
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Hornster - As above - I remember easiski getting us all to commit to letting gravity take us straight down before starting to turn during an intro to off-piste lesson. Building up a little speed makes the turns so much smoother. Nice to see another climber here - I've only just started getting into the off-piste stuff but have done a bit of ice over the years and spent a lot of happy times in the UK in snow gullies - must get better and try to ski down some of them snowHead


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Mon 24-10-05 17:54; edited 1 time in total
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Rich - sounds nasty - I once went up to my chest in an easy Welsh gully and it took me ages to get out - nothing to pull onto. Made my mate laugh his head off though Laughing
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Its very scary when your head goes under snow for the first time and you have to bash away with that head to clear airways.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Hornster, I'd second (third/fourth) the idea of booking yourself onto a course. I first started getting into this off-piste lark about three years ago when I went on my first SCGB holiday - it wasn't officially an off-piste week but the leader was fairly allergic to the pistes and the group was up to it, so we spent most of the week in the "easy" off-piste. Previously I'd been doing a bit of the knobbly bits around the edges of pistes, and searching out all the ungroomed runs, but that was about it. I followed that up the following year with a great SCGB course in Flaine - which opened up a whole now world. They run a variety of courses there pretty much every week throughout the season, probably concentrating on the more basic/intermediate off-piste end (they tend to concentrate on the next level up in Argentiere). Yann there is a great guy and if he doesn't enthuse you and transform your skiing experience then you should give up! The point about a course is that they will take you places that will stretch you sensibly, but that you'd never dream of going (and it would be dangerous for you to go) by yourself. I mixed that with a bit more guided stuff last year, and a bit of touring. This year I'm trying one of the Snoworks Back Country courses mentioned above, and I'm also going for a bit more touring.

As for how different/difficult it is, I'd of course concur with what was said at the top of this thread. The biggest difference is that the snow underfoot changes pretty much every inch/foot/yard along your track, and you have to react to those changes. How difficult you will find it depends very much on how good your on-piste skiing really is. If you have a great time muscling you way down anything you'll find it exciting but difficult and tiring, and you'll probably fall over a lot. If you're really well balanced and fluid on your skis, and have great reactions, you'll find it a breeze - although there will be some technique adjustments to make, which the instructor will point out - and it'll be even more thrilling (or so I'm told Wink ).
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You know it makes sense.
"I first started getting into this off-piste lark about three years ago when I went on my first SCGB holiday"

Who or what are SCGB and Snoworks and where are they based? How much do they cost and how long are their off-piste courses?

I would consider myself very confident and experienced in rope work, glacier travel, crevasse rescue, avalanche awareness and rescue as well as general mountain travel. However, all of that is from many years climbing mountains with big boots and crampons and ice axes, not with skis strapped to my feet which is altogether different.
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Snoworks
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar.org.uk wrote:
Snoworks

Just so long as you're fit enough to keep up - when I saw Phil Smith on Saturday he paused for a minute to chat before running up another mountain and barely seemed to have broken into a sweat Very Happy ...
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http://www.pistetopowder.com/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Alternatively go to the US or Canada where the resorts tend to have an in-bounds/out-of-bounds policy rather than on-piste/off-piste. In bounds is patrolled and controlled so your off-piste excursions are likely to be (though not guaranteed of course!) much safer. If you want to jump (often literaly!) in at the deep end, go to Whistler and do an Extremely Canadian course wink
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I would second what stuarth said. Yes, there was an in-bounds avalanche fatality in May 2005 (Arapahoe Basin) but it was a freak slush slide, and the first in-bounds fatality for 30 years. In North American resorts you can explore off-piste terrain without a guide to your heart's content, and I'd say it's 99.9% guaranteed safe. Basically, before the patrol open any terrain with new snow, they bomb the cr@p out of it to check that nothing will come down.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Martin Bell,

They are so terrified of litigation they try their utmost to make the mountain safe. I was with the head of safety at Silverton a few weeks ago, he'd worked at A-Basin for years and could barely believe there had been a fatality.
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