any suggestions for a ski that works in powder, crud, slush, carving on piste AND hardpack.. not true shiny ice (does anything work on that stuff) but the hard stuff you can hardly dent with a pole?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Jack of all trades, master of none sort of ski?
Welcome to snowHeads.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
All ski choices are the art of the compromise. The more suitable it will be for one thing, the less suitable it will be for other things. Perhaps it's best if you describe what you typically ski: more on piste than off? Off-piste in any snow, off-piste only when the snow is deep and untracked? Race training or bumps? Etc, etc...
wantalot, Oh I'm going to get into trouble for this . . . walk into a ski shop . . . close your eyes . . . turn around three times . . . and walk forward. If you're luck you'll reach a nice nubile sales associate, otherwise pretty much any ski in the shop will do the job in differing conditions to a greater or lesser extent. It's your skill that defines where you ski and not really what're on your feet.
Welcome to the nuthouse there'll be plenty along soon to tell you what I'm talking out of
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
On your criteria a ski between 80-100mm in the waist, traditional camber with perhaps some tip rocker. Stiffness to suit skill level.
Masque is correct to an extent, skill trumps gear but IMO something like the above will work well for most people in most euro conditions.
After all it is free
After all it is free
wantalot, I chose HEAD iTitan for a ski that will literally do pretty much everything, it won't be the best at everything, but it's more than capable of handling anything that's thrown at it.
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meh wrote:
On your criteria a ski between 80-100mm in the waist, traditional camber with perhaps some tip rocker.
Which is to within 2mm a pair of TSTs, cracking good skis!
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Masque.. a lot of money being wasted on research in the ski industry then
Rob Rar - all pistes, all conditions, off piste & bumps in good to fair conditions, no actual racing but carving on piste.
i'm finding all mountain skis at about 90 underfoot pretty good for most things, but rubbish on hardpack.. and want someone to tell me it doesn't have to be that way.. or do i still need to pack the race skis as well..
the reviewers are making some of the latest crop of OM skis sound great, but should i be cynical about that?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
What meh said and what Masque said. Select point on the 80mm-100mm scale in direct proportion to the BMI of the driver.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
wantalot, Do you think there is THAT much difference in skis? It's got to the point where it's like closing a door half way, and half way again, etc. it can never close more than half way . . . but there's still wood in the 'ole. As the others have said, any mid fat, mid to high end ski will take you anywhere on the hill. OK I'll throw one out for you White Dot One or Preacher
Friend to snowHeads, with a excellent reputation and a lot of fans here. Not your run-of-the-mill ski so a bit of piste kudos too.
Then go get some lessons
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
wantalot, Keep on with wider skis but get them stiff and set the edge angle to 3 degrees. Makes a big difference in hard conditions but still gonna be way off what you could do with a piste or SL ski.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
wantalot wrote:
i'm finding all mountain skis at about 90 underfoot pretty good for most things, but rubbish on hardpack.. and want someone to tell me it doesn't have to be that way.. or do i still need to pack the race skis as well..
That's my experience as well. I have a pair of 90mm underfoot, slight tip rocker and not too stiff which I really loved in the variable range of conditions we had in December (a pair of Head Rev90s which were great for nice powder snow, tracked powder, slightly slabby snow, loose snow on piste, etc). However, they were not up to much for on piste performance on firm snow. For those conditions I needed to drop down to 80mm'ish and much stiffer with a traditional geometry (the Titans referred to above). For days when piste performance wasn't a big deal I skied on the fatter pair, for days when piste performance was a big deal I skied on the narrower pair.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, yooz sayin' I can't carve my fat old Nomads on crust? draggin' ma knee . . .
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Masque, no idea. But if you can I'm sure you could do it with a higher level of performance on a ski which is designed with that particular task in mind. I can carve clean arc-arc turns with my Rev90s on blue pistes, but probably not a red piste. On the Titans I can carve clean arc-arc turns on a red piste. Same skier, the only difference is ski performance. As I said, all ski choices are the art of the compromise.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
r ob@rar, game on, I'm looking forward to being a total prat on my skis the moment you see me . . . not
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
all ski choices are the art of the compromise.
Yep, and to me, an 'all mountain' ski compromise means being able to safely negotiate the nastiest of all mountain conditions, not being able to go hell-for-leather on all of them. Specifically, when I see 'rocker' profile tagged to 'all mountain' ski specifications, it makes me think the designers have lost the plot and the thought of useful edge pointing up and away from the snow when you need it most is a compromise too far.
wantalot, Armada TST is a good ski, but huge tip rocker means that when snow gets really chopped and heavy it gets pushed quite a bit. I think Volkl Mantra is more like a ski you are looking for. I ski both TST and Aura (ladies' Mantra) so I can make a direct comparison between the two and go for Aura when conditions turn nasty. It's a real crud buster, and is very good on hard pack groomers too.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I've loved my Volkl Bridges and found they do well at most things on the mountain.
i expect to get some "lessons" when i take my level 4 this season...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
wantalot, The ski shape thats started to make a big impression for "all mountain" but still performs really well on piste, is tip rocker, traditional underfoot and a flat tail.
I spent loads of time on the Movement Trusts last season, and would be my everyday choice of ski.
Oh and before you all say that I am bound to say that, we have sold out already!
After all it is free
After all it is free
My All Mountain ski is the Movement Jam. This year's model has a bit of rocker in the tip. I recommend it to the house
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Quote:
powder, crud, slush, carving on piste AND hardpack
I've skied my Elan Magfire 78 Ti's in all that - I think they are a good choice, they are maybe just a little heavy for really fine powder, but are supposed to have a 20% off piste bias, so are seen as appropriate for a use in deep snow - they also come in a 82 width which is maybe slightly more capable off-piste. They have been quite excellent in crud and slush having the weight and stiffness to smash through most stuff, and have been really pleased with their performance on hardpack and ice.
However, I am biased, they are what I use and everyone will probably sing the praises of their own 'pet' skis.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
I think either Stockli VXLs or Kastle MX88 would the trick. I have the former and there is not a lot that unsettles it.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I have posted our little ski test vid before, but reading some of the comments above it may be worth it again.
Three skis feature in this vid, the Movement Jams with the new early rise tip, the Movement Trust with its tip rocker and flat tail (108 underfoot) and the Movement flyswatters 150 x 125 x 145 massive tip and tail rocker.
To identify who is skiing I am in the red pants and my son in the yellow pants, my son is always on the Flyswatters
The term rocker has to be looked at carefully sometimes its tiny like the Jams and sometimes its extreme like the fly swatters, they all have there place on the mountain and can work in lots of different conditions as hopefully the vid shows.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I may be in disagreement with a lot on here (and of course this is all stated as my opinion), but I have never skied a single ski that does everything as well as a specialist (and I am a ski tart, so will change them every day from the rental shop and demo whatever I can, whenever I can!).
Many skis are pretty good at most things - but the claim that an "all mountain" mid-fat thing is a really good piste carver seems to be a myth. Anything that is regarded as fast edge to edge when compared to something with a 70mm waist just isn't, in my experience.
Similarly, while you can ski anything in powder if you're good enough (I'm not), those lovely big rockered things just make it a really nice, surfey experience. They are of course horrid on piste. Mid fats help, but just aren't as effortless.
Hence my looking for a specialist piste carver to go with my all mountain skis. Neither do my all mountain skis do deep powder especially well. So I'm looking for a piste carver, and will probably change my 89mm underfoot things (Whitedot Ones - which were fine in hip deep alifornian powder in December, but not brilliant) to 100mm+ skis for powder at some point.
I actually bought a second hand pair of Head supershape Magnums recently, but sold them on after a rather good offer from a friend who was about to leave for a week's skiing, and I fancy some brand new (although not necessarily current) skis, so I am still looking. Current favourite is a K2 AMP Charger for piste, and Whitedot Preachers for powder (I'm a sidecountry bowl rather than full gnarl backcountry avalanche nutter, so don't actually need surfboards)
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 10-01-13 11:26; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Masque wrote:
wantalot, Do you think there is THAT much difference in skis? It's got to the point where it's like closing a door half way, and half way again, etc. it can never close more than half way . . . but there's still wood in the 'ole. As the others have said, any mid fat, mid to high end ski will take you anywhere on the hill. OK I'll throw one out for you White Dot One or Preacher
Friend to snowHeads, with a excellent reputation and a lot of fans here. Not your run-of-the-mill ski so a bit of piste kudos too.
Then go get some lessons
Love this post! You can have both lessons and the right kit for the right conditions - I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive.
1) the Preacher is a great ski (I shal be buying a pair). But it is no use on steep, hardpack, morning pistes. I get the point about edge tuning for conditions - I did this to my WD Ones - they have a 3 degree angle on them now. This made them better in such conditions, but still not great.
2) Yes, skill is more important than gear. But we're not all skiing gods - and while lessons always help, having the right gear for the conditions does too. If I want to arc lovely, clean, medium turns on a hard corduroy first thing in the morning, my skill does not let me do it with the Preacher (or even my Whitedot Ones). It does if I swap to shortish, stiff, piste carver.
Does this make me a flawed skier? Almost certainly. Does it make my morning safer and more enjoyable? Definitely.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
interesting topic.. i've been skiing on icelantic pilgrims for the past few years, with 3degree edges. They are brilliant on everything except that icy hard pack on the steep reds & blacks, where they have trouble getting a grip. This has led to me taking a pair of atomic race skis for those conditions, but it would be nice to just have one pair of skis to cart about instead of 2. Someone please let me know when the genuine all-mountain do everything ski is invented
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
See, I'm looking to buy just one sets of skis and stumbling across this thread lead me to the Whitedot Preachers... These are around a 60% piste 40% off-piste ski are they not? Whereas the K2 Chargers are much more suited for hard packed, groomed pistes are they not?
But the Chargers for £285 are a great deal, the Whitedots are twice that... FFS, why is this buying malarkey so difficult?!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
But the Chargers for £285 are a great deal, the Whitedots are twice that... FFS,
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Harry Flashman
Quote:
I may be in disagreement with a lot on here (and of course this is all stated as my opinion), but I have never skied a single ski that does everything as well as a specialist.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that at all. An all-mountain ski is always going to be a compromise in most aspects and require more skill to ski as well as a specialist ski in whatever conditions its optimised for but most likely the all mountain ski will be better in conditions where the specialist ski is out of place. Basically an everyday ski for people without fat wallets or who ski lots of variable snow conditions in a day.
The more I'm reading up on the Movement Jam ER, the easier it's getting to narrow down my personal short list!
I don't think anyone's got a bad word to say about it other than it won't excel in 753m deep powder........
The hunt continues.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Harry Flashman, Of course there's not 'one ski to rule them all' and I'm as guilty as the next snowhead for having 'quiver envy' and making 'inappropriate purchases'. I've owned and still do, too many skis but a few years ago I realised that looking for and buying different skis for different conditions was doing nothing to improve my skiing. So I decided to stick with just one and go back to learning how to ski and not how to shop . . . yes I like nice shiny and new . . . my Nomads are old, very scruffy and blunt, but there's nothing I wouldn't point them at and know that it's just my lack of skill that's going to put me or someone else at risk. They're fat with not a huge sidecut and on a hard icy piste they were a handful, until I learnt how to ski them. I may no longer have morning stiffness . . . well not where it might be useful . . . but I love being on first chair with them and they are not all freshly edged and razer-like, quite the reverse. Yes a piste carver is a wonderful tool and I still regret selling my Atomics, they even let me survive the grey, polished, stone-hard Grand Mot a couple of occasions but they didn't teach me anything about skiing only how to have immense fun while being a 'passenger'.
There are hundreds of great 'compromise' skis out there, quality materials, wonderful technology and decades of research . . . that last one may be a stretch given some of the 'new' shapes . . . but they ALL have one thing in common. In any snow or mountain condition it's the pillock on them that says they're crap or great.
As you agree " skill is more important than gear", I'll add that a ski that disguises or flatters a lack of skill is more likely to persuade a skier that they are better than they are and put them in places and at speeds they shouldn't be.
I may as well stick some 2x4" to my boots then....................
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ryan_w, only if they're longer than 2.5m
these are a little 'conditions' specific
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ryan_w wrote:
See, I'm looking to buy just one sets of skis and stumbling across this thread lead me to the Whitedot Preachers... These are around a 60% piste 40% off-piste ski are they not? Whereas the K2 Chargers are much more suited for hard packed, groomed pistes are they not?
But the Chargers for £285 are a great deal, the Whitedots are twice that... FFS, why is this buying malarkey so difficult?!
I really wouldn't buy Preachers as a one quiver ski. Excellent things, but they are unwieldy on piste and not carvey on steep, hard stuff.
They are good on piste for an all mountain, powder-biased ski. That does not mean that they are great on piste full stop - they are not.
Last edited by After all it is free on Thu 10-01-13 13:03; edited 1 time in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Masque wrote:
As you agree " skill is more important than gear", I'll add that a ski that disguises or flatters a lack of skill is more likely to persuade a skier that they are better than they are and put them in places and at speeds they shouldn't be.
Fully agree - which is why I didn't buy a Salomon BBR 8.9. Lovely things to ski - that rewarded awful technique a little too readily...
In a way, that's why I'm after an unforgiving piste carver and a piste incapable fatty. Both great for the conditions - and swap them on days when you feel like really pushing yourself - ski the narrow off piste, and the fatboy on hardpack. An all mountain will never be perfet in all conditions, nor will it push you by being completely unsuitable for the task in hand.
Weird logic, I know...but I got a perverse thrill from taking my all mountains into hip high Californian powder at Kirkwood and trying to survive. But I also wished I could have packed them away, put some fatties on, and surfed in the afternoon after a hard morning trying to stay afloat!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
wantalot, I went through the same process, trying to find something that would do literally everything. I got a fair way with the process and ended up having to compromise on everything - 85mm waist Dynastar Legend Sultan. That said, it can't cut it on boilerplate like a serious carving ski with 70mm waist - can anything? It also isn't as good as a 100mm+ powder ski when heading off piste. But it does all of the jobs fine, and matches my skiing, mostly on piste, but when we head off piste it copes with it despite my poor technique.
I tried various other skis at demo days, talked to lots of people with the kind of ski I thought might do everything, and discovered that pretty much everyone had the same problem - you either go skinny and it won't be much use in deep powder, or go fat and it doesn't hold a serious edge on proper ice. There is no real getting around this. I have never used a fat ski that did ice as well as a skinny one, and I have never used a skinny ski that is much use in powder.
The only ski that didn't exist when I made my choice, and I think might be worth considering now, is something like the BBR 8.9 - if that had been around, I'd have put it on the shortlist to test at least. Plus they look cool. And I'd go and play with the Whitedots - the One seems closest to an allrounder to me.
Your only other option is to go around all the brands, look at their all mountain skis, and try and find something that really can defy physics.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
there'll be plenty along soon to tell you what I'm talking out of 
but a few years ago I realised that looking for and buying different skis for different conditions was doing nothing to improve my skiing. So I decided to stick with just one and go back to learning how to ski and not how to shop . . . yes I like nice shiny and new . . . my Nomads are old, very scruffy and blunt, but there's nothing I wouldn't point them at and know that it's just my lack of skill that's going to put me or someone else at risk. They're fat with not a huge sidecut and on a hard icy piste they were a handful, until I learnt how to ski them. I may no longer have morning stiffness . . . well not where it might be useful . . . but I love being on first chair with them and they are not all freshly edged and razer-like, quite the reverse. Yes a piste carver is a wonderful tool and I still regret selling my Atomics, they even let me survive the grey, polished, stone-hard Grand Mot a couple of occasions but they didn't teach me anything about skiing only how to have immense fun while being a 'passenger'.
