 Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, and if you'd said the movement should have been sideways I wouldn't have a problem. But there is a significant difference in the direction of the movement you want to make when you are carving compared to other ways of steering your skis, such as a turn on steep terrain where you blend in much more rotation of the skis. So while you might think that what you wrote wasn't about technique modification I'd say that many clients would take it that way (unsurprisingly because you focused on making movements while trying to stay relaxed), and perhaps begin to develop a movement pattern which wouldn't serve them well.
I see quite a few skiers who are stiff and wooden legged, but without exception they are all very low end intermediates, barely out of the beginner stage. What I see much more of is experienced skiers who are excessively flexed from very early in the turn. Which is why I have debated this with you because buried in your long list of words were some phrases I thought would contribute to that kind of movement. In the group that pam w was in that I mentioned earlier there was one chap who was a strong skier, will certainly be a very good BASI L2 candidate when he signs up for it. His one key problem in carving was sinking down way more than was necessary in the turn. It's a common problem.
As for the racer, he skis pretty good and certainly good enough to illustrate the point I wanted to make. To be honest I thought your critique of him was well wide of the mark. He got popped off the snow at the end of one turn and didn't get balanced on his outside ski until he was almost at the gate of the next turn. As a result he was late on that gate and tight on the next one which will undoubtedly have lost him a bit of time. Beyond that someone with a more experienced race coaches eye will need to chip in, because for me he was skiing with good balance and creating a solid platform with an appropriate amount of angulation and counter to allow his skis to run cleanly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| ... who seems to be doing a reasonably good job in an ugly way? |
Form or function, what's the more important aspect of our skiing?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, Thank you, I'm making the assumption (terrible thing I know) that the skier already has a developing good technique and that it's fear of speed, steep and rough that's the problem. I'm trying to address that. If you mean that you want more hip movement then no, that's not where I'm targeting this. The stance and body position is entirely in your hands on this one and the skier will not be in an deep, hip to the deck carve, this is a mental exercise that needs the skier to be in the best position they have in conditions that are just at the edge of their comfort zone in roughness but not speed. We don't want to scare them into stiffening up. We want them to experience absorbing the surface irregularities in a safe environment. To do that you have to 'unlock' the legs that are fine on smooth piste and that is realistically achieved by either flexing or extending them by a small amount mid carve. Once they have experienced that tension release they can recognize it and practice repeating it.
The ultimate progression of this would be running big GS carving turns down alternate borders of the piste off the smooth and onto the crud and back again.
On to your fella who's over flexing. That's an illustration of a comfort position and in this case is more of a problem for you as he will continue this. I had a tumbler who used to habitually cock one leg in his somersaults and I was given a trick that might help here. We used an elastic bandage to strap a punctured tennis ball to the back of his leg so that he would feel when he bent his knee. The puncture meant it couldn't blow his knee out on landing. Took a little while but it did cure his habit. You could try something similar to give the guy a physical reference to feel when he's flexing too deep.
I would be interested in a race coaches comments on the lad. I see that lift off the snow as a result of a more aggressive left carve and he's positioning himself back to prepare for the right and he's already out of balance as the hill drops away under him, all his right turns are weaker, but that's only half a dozen gates to observe.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| ... who seems to be doing a reasonably good job in an ugly way? |
Form or function, what's the more important aspect of our skiing? |
Shirley both ? 
They share equal and overlapping roles . . . they are the ying and yang of skiing [/zen]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, Thank you, I'm making the assumption (terrible thing I know) that the skier already has a developing good technique and that it's fear of speed, steep and rough that's the problem. |
If they have good technique it's likely that their speed threshold is pretty high and they will already be able to cope with the variations you naturally find on piste.
| Masque wrote: |
| We want them to experience absorbing the surface irregularities in a safe environment. To do that you have to 'unlock' the legs that are fine on smooth piste and that is realistically achieved by either flexing or extending them by a small amount mid carve. Once they have experienced that tension release they can recognize it and practice repeating it. |
I know this is a big deal for you but I have to say that I've never seen undulations in the terrain being a major issue if people have a modicum of technique, at least until you get to proper sized moguls. The only people I see who ski around with no movement at the ankle and no natural suspension are kids (generally) who appear to be self-taught. They're always in the back seat, steer their turns from their shoulders and often ski faster than their technique is capable of. To be honest, with skiers like that you really wouldn't be introducing carving.
| Masque wrote: |
| On to your fella who's over flexing. That's an illustration of a comfort position and in this case is more of a problem for you as he will continue this. |
Not comfort, just a movement pattern you see in all his skiing which had developed over the years. He has a high speed threshold, and definitely doesn't sit down/back when it gets a bit fast. It's was more of an issue for him in carved turns because the forces you have to work with are much higher. It will be tough for him to change as it is an instinctive movement, developed over many repetitions. But he made some good progress with a couple of drills I suggested and had a clear idea of why I was giving him the feedback I was, especially once he'd seen his video and compared it to the clip I posted above.
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Nah, bollocks.
If he's skiing effectively it doesn't matter what he looks like. In that setting (GS training) only the clock counts. If he's making ugly movements which make him fast who cares, but if he's making pretty movements that slows him down coach will have a thing or two to say.
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Kid looks pretty good to me. If you soften the leg you lose all that energy, you need to resist and use the energy that builds up to accelerate through transition hence the pop. None of this ski-instructor constant pressure throughout the turn stuff here . Not much angulation either in modern ski racing - ever heard of the 'Austrian No Angulation Turn'? I kid you not. Basically mainly inclination then level the shoulders near the end if necessary.
But that's ski racing and it doesn't always look pretty and it does require strength.
Masque, this kid will crush you in the race course, but you will undoubtedly look prettier. Neither is wrong IMHO.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Nah, bollocks.
If he's skiing effectively it doesn't matter what he looks like. In that setting (GS training) only the clock counts. If he's making ugly movements which make him fast who cares, but if he's making pretty movements that slows him down coach will have a thing or two to say. |
 you lot do like your racers . . . you've got to remember I'm a boarder first and always. We are imbued with a natural affinity to the more aesthetic moments in life and snow . . . all that blows straight through the legs of you brutish thugs on two planks.
Where we differ is that I would never use a racer to illustrate technique for the reason you give yourself
| Quote: |
| In that setting (GS training) only the clock counts |
at that level you cannot grow function without knowing form and that's why they are ying/yang. Of course if you're pushing students toward speed training you would point out racing examples . . . but your students (punters not basi postulants) have a great deal to learn before that.
All skiers have their limit where technique is trumped by terrain. All I'm offering is a way to break through that particularly for those at the blue /red interface.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Nah, bollocks.
If he's skiing effectively it doesn't matter what he looks like. In that setting (GS training) only the clock counts. If he's making ugly movements which make him fast who cares, but if he's making pretty movements that slows him down coach will have a thing or two to say. |
Agree, ski ugly if needs be when "racing against the clock" but in "training" I'm not entirely sure this applies so much, ugly might be fast now at a skiers current level, but ultimately training should be to iron out undesirable movements that may inhibit full future potential, no?
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Masque,
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I really take it on board that I have to develop a much simpler, probably terse (in my terms) instructor face.
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If it's any consolation, I enjoy reading your posts (and the replies they generate) as they are 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Masque wrote: |
| you've got to remember I'm a boarder first and always. |
I know, I think it's a big problem for you
| Masque wrote: |
| ... at that level you cannot grow function without knowing form and that's why they are ying/yang. |
Not entirely I sure I know what that means, but if a skier is making effective movements in challenging conditions (eg skiing fast through a course designed to test their skills) then their skiing will have a lot of things that we can draw on to inform our recreatiuonal skiing. That's not to say that we should, even if we could, mimic their every move, just that we can learn a lot from how they ski and translate that into our recreational skiing.
| Masque wrote: |
| All skiers have their limit where technique is trumped by terrain. All I'm offering is a way to break through that particularly for those at the blue /red interface. |
The skiers that I see who stiffen up on blue or red runs have poor technique, not a low threshold for steepness. Confidence improves as control becomes easy. Have to say in my teaching I have no interest in boosting skier's confidence if I don't think that they have the control to ski increasingly steeper terrain. It's different for speed - plenty of technically precise skiers who don't like to ski fast, but are happy to ski steep terrain at a pace they are comfortable with.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, bit late now, since I've booked my lesson , but is it actually possible to practise that 'side-to-side' effectively in a fridge? I've realised, correct me if I'm wrong, that it won't work very well - remembering the bicycling analogy - at slow speeds.
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| ... ultimately training should be to iron out undesirable movements that may inhibit full future potential, no? |
Yes, agree entirely. But that is skiing effectively IMO, not stylishly. However, this might just a be a semantic argument.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Pedantica, there was a video once posted in BZK that I don't know how to find again, but it made a big impression on me when I saw it, and I long to ski the way the chap did in the footage. You comment on side to side action reminded me of it. I wonder if someone recognised it.
It was a skier (fairly well built chap I think) coming straight down a hill towards the camera. He seemed to do nothing but face down the hill and he remained incredibly central over his skis as his legs seemed to move from side to side under him. The side to side action was really fast, but I'd long to be able to replicate it even at lower speed. I wish I could find the video again, but I can't remember exactly what he was demonstrating vs. what the vido might be called. Do you or anyone recognise it?
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, Cheers, gotta go, have a good night 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kenny wrote: |
| Not much angulation either in modern ski racing |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, thanks, see you Monday week. I believe you're away next week, hope the course and the snow are good.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, sounds a bit like Phil Smith
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Masque, the lad in that video is skiing a challenging line flat out very skilfully and how do I put this politely you don't even begin to be qualified to analyse his movements in that clip (sorry, best I could do  ). Neither am I and I'm gonna guess I have had rather more exposure to that sort of thing than you over the last few years, some from the skiing it side but actually mainly from the watching/analysing/helping maybe some hindering side. I'm confident that a clip of him skiing recreationally would show him to be more precise and more efficient in all his skiing skills than the vast majority of skiers on this board.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ansta1 wrote: |
| Graham Bell did the same exercise on hi altitude a few years ago, i think it was with colin jackson, Graham pops in occasionally but guess he is a little busy at St Anton right now. |
I know the drill and I think I can recall that clip when Graham was working with some celebrities to get them run GS gates faster. The frame that you create with your ski poles sits on your hips and is normally used to focus attention on what your movements your hips are making. I think in the case of the Graham Bell example it was to help keep the hips reasonabley square to the skis (ie, pointing in the same direction) rather than twisted too much inside or outside the turn (which is what I didn't like about the Klaus Mair clip earlier in this thread).
I've done that drill a couple of times and it makes me very nervous when doing it at high speed. The potential to get something wrong and skewering yourself on the poles seems pretty high. |
Rob, and if i recall correctly, Graham made a very clear point that it was something he didnt often do or would advise others to try due to the potential injury risk as you mentioned.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ansta1, thanks, I didn't remember that bit.
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I am sure if Graham ever gets back from the Editing suite (nee bar) and checks in he may pipe up.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| I am sure if Graham ever gets back from the Editing suite (nee bar) and checks in he may pipe up. |
I'll ask skimottaret if he used that drill as he's done a couple of weeks coaching with him.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, I am qualified to analyze body movement and balance (they're a little ancient) but not how they pertain to skiing. And I said that at the start. And I'm dam certain he's a far better skier than the vast majority here. I also know how young men use their growing musculature and strength to compensate in many ways for less technique finesse in many sports. Sports development has moved on greatly since I was involved but basic human physiology hasn't. I didn't comment on his ability or skill, only the differences in his balance, positioning and movement which are quite marked and quite common in young men. I also said it was a very short piece of film so there are limits to that.
Sorry to pee on you BBQ.
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pam w, I had a look for that name - I can't see the clip I am hunting for. The clip showed the skier with an incredible central and still torso and it was as though his legs were just switching from side to side directly under him - I htought it was amazing skiing. I'd like to find it as I was going to ask what I need to do to work towards it.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I was going to ask what I need to do to work towards it. |
Slalom skis... 
Well they turn themselves don't they!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, lessons, lots of 'em.
Plus what gatecrasher said.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, and sorry to crap on yours. The guy is skiing a challenging line flat out. Your analysis is like saying a premier league footballer taking an airborne sideways volley at full stretch wasn't very symmetrical with his hair out of place. Strong ski racers like this lad, from the under-16 category onwards, aren't just physically strong and fit (which they are) but are also highly skilled. They don't use their muscles to get away with stuff except when at their technical limits. And their technical limits are way way beyond anything that'd be considered normal skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, It's not the clip I had in mind, but the action is similar - it looks so controlled (esp. the bit around 55s), I'd love to be able to ski that well.
NB. I'd also like to be able to book snow and visability like that in the video above on every trip!! (in fact maybe I have better odds with the skiing part of it )
In the clip I had in mind you could really see the extension occuring in the outside leg each time, and the skier was hardly moving across the width of the mountain at all, even shorter turns (well they were hardly turns at all) than in the clip above. I keep trying to work out what was driving the side to side movement, whether the legs controlled it through their side to side muscle movement, or were the legs just following where the skis were going because they had been succesfully turned on their edges (sorry that might not make sense, but I know what I mean).
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slikedges, That's precisely why I loath it when peeps here are asking questions about their skiing levels and we end up with pictures and videos of racers at their technical limits. As for pro footballers they spend a great deal of time and effort to keep a balanced body form as ball skills training creates a bias in legs and lower spine. Your analogy is flawed as a skier has to perform equally to both left and right and any weakness or bias will have an effect on that. AFAIK footballers are not tasked in that way or with the speed and G forces of skiing.
In this case the skier, over the limit of the vid, showed a 'consistent' bias toward his left turns, his body was more stable and poised and although I straying into skiing, would you agree that his skis and his position over them were better controlled? On the right his body shape and positioning are markedly different, and he's not as balanced. it is very clear. How that effects his skiing is down to you guys.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| pam w, I had a look for that name - I can't see the clip I am hunting for. The clip showed the skier with an incredible central and still torso and it was as though his legs were just switching from side to side directly under him - I htought it was amazing skiing. I'd like to find it as I was going to ask what I need to do to work towards it. |
You have a very keen analytical eye Megamum. The instructor in the video looks more like a pendulum whereas racers tend to look more like a metronome. Sorry Gatecrasher I couldn't keep my gob shut.
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Masque, one thing springs to mind when I see vids where people appear to be skiing asymmetrically is it's sometimes difficult to see for possible slope cambers on film.
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Kenny, I love that analogy and can picture that instantly  - I bet you are brilliant at explaining things succinctly! Yes, it's that pendulum motion that I like - still and central upper body with the legs doing the side to side bit underneath the torso.
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gatecrasher, I agree and this was a short vid to be definitive in any way but I was asked for an opinion . . . I didn't offer one out of the blue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| Masque, one thing springs to mind when I see vids where people appear to be skiing asymmetrically is it's sometimes difficult to see for possible slope cambers on film. |
+1
and the course set is never symetrical either. He's not just going left 1-2-3 ... right 1-2-3 ... identical-turn-shape-repeat-indefinitely-pose-for-the-cameras on on some easy groomer .
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FAQ
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