Giving Tips In A Snowdome - 'Fraid not sir

A snowHead

I'm just wondering about the ethics involved here. Last week I took my lad, my daughter, her mate and myself to Xscape at Castleford. For a two hour session, that's over £100. It was nice and quiet, towards the end we nearly had the place to ourselves.

The problem was that my daughters friend only had a couple of hours experience in lessons, and that was from last year. back then she could ride the poma, snowplough turn and stop - so passed the criteria to use the slope.

But, as she hadn't been since, my daughter asked if I could give her a few tips and pointers when we first went on the slope to get her confidence back.

So, rock up and walk up the beginner slope - no lift, really gentle slope and one class on it, so we walked up the far side where no one was. Within about 30 seconds the instructor had scooted over to tell me that private lessons weren't allowed and that we had to use the main slope.

Fingers crossed, we went over to the pomma and she got up to the first stage without drama. I gave her a bit of a pep talk and told her just to do a couple of straight runs with a nice wide plough at a slow speed while she got back into it. Again, straight down without drama. But at the bottom another guy in Xscape kit told me that private lessons weren't allowed, I told him I wasn't an instructor and was just helping her build her confidence again. He tells me that running straight in a plow isn't skiing and if she needs lessons she had to book them through Xscape.

For the next few runs I leave her alone with my daughter, but on the fourth or fifth trip up she falls off the poma halfway up. Straight away a third Xscape employee tells me that if she falls off again she'll be asked to leave the slope with no refund.

As it turns out she didn't fall off again all day and, despite the tips I gave my daughter to pass on as drills, she seems a natural. She ended using the main slope to the top and showing some decent turns.

While i can see that private lessons shouldn't be allowed, what's the problem with helping people out?

One thing that stuck in my mind was the first insructor saying it was like taking sandwiches into a pub; must admit they don't usually charge £120 to get into a pub.

So who's in the wrong here?

A snowHead

Mosha Marc, jobs worths protecting their job's worth . . . there's nowt like a wee uniform to grow a bigger willie rolling eyes

You see that a lot over here, overt protectionism of territory from perceived fiscal threat . . . and as the UK is gleefully joining swimming in the same mental toilet as the US, you're going to see a lot more of it . . . an awful lot more.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Mosha Marc, Probably wondering if you had public liability insurance given how quick the average Brit is to run to lawyers for the smallest thing. Sounds to me like they were doubting friend was up to the required standard to be loose on the main slope and if anything had happened the lawyers would claim you were instructing so liable.

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Mosha Marc, it's a private place so you are in effect bound by their rules. I'd find out what they are though because it might not support what you were told. If at all feasible I'd go somewhere else more accommodating but can appreciate there isn't likely to be much local competition.

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Mosha Marc, I'm with you. Over-zealous idiots need to get a life rolling eyes

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Plsying Devil's advocate I suppose if they didn't say anything and as a result of you 'teaching', something happened to your 'pupil' and the dome was sued (etc) then the employees would have failed their employers. It sounds preposterous and there could be a million-and-one scenario, one possibly involving an ACME anvil falling from the sky, but in litigious times they're always going to be wary....

I've been on the end of it when I took the missus to MK for a 'refresher' before we went on holiday - she wasn't that confident back then - and I was helping her on and off the drag lift. I was told off but fortunately, only once as most of the on-slope staff were dealing with sorting out the park for the evening. It still got my goat up because I was clearly helping here make sure she didn't get bashed by the drag and/or other punters.....

I'm sure you've taken it on the chin.... Smile

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Hemel is a bit more relaxed, from what I've seen. The nursery slope is off limits to everyone except Snow Centre instructors, which I think is the correct policy. Doesn't seem to be a problem with friends helping out friends on the main slope providing everyone skis in control.

After all it is free

Sadly, from my experience of Hemel they don't seem concerned about whether people are in control and competent to be on the main slope. I was pleased to read that Castleford actually take the requirement a bit more seriously.

Mosha Marc, I agree that attitude seems unreasonable, and it's nothing like taking your own sandwiches to a pub. It's more like paying to rent a boat at a facility where you have to show a certificate of competence to be allowed to do so without an instructor. What if she had been a more competent/safer skier, and you had been giving her a few more advanced tips about how to improve her turns? Would they have objected to that, too?

I wouldn't buy a "safety concern". They don't seem to rush to remove people skiing rather dangerously out of control.

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Mmm, I've got to admit that the liability issue hadn't crossed my mind. I'm from the "you know it's a dangerous sport, so accept what you get" school.

It certainly felt like they'd presumed I was on the "scotch" straight away, so were watching us from then on.

It didn't really bother me then (unless we were going to get thrown off without a refund) and hasn't since. I was just wondering about the whole idea of giving a helping hand being frowned on.

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I find the rules applied hit and miss.

I was at mk a few weeks ago with my 2 children, i wasnt instructing but was providing verbal guidance whilst following. I was told by one slope policeman that i couldnt instruct, but another mk snozone chap proceeded to give my eldest some guidance.

cut to today and in the mk fridge, i was with my 2 children again, there were 2 or 3 people who clearly wouldnt have met the requirements for main slope passes (turn control speed, use poma lift) but were still on the slope.
One poor lady was frozen on the slope with here brother, boyfriend, friend pointing at all the other people who can ski and telling her to move. All within 10 foot of a piste patrol.

ahh well.

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Nothing like as silly as your experience, but we had a family outing to a Snowdome in Glasgow (which I shall not name, lest I be sued), and we had lot's of grumpiness about taking photographs - I guess as they have their tame photo bunnie.

At one level,umm, fair enough, but at another?

Different issue but at a West Yorkshire fridge this week I started to get a little tired of certain "dudes" being merrily allowed to bypass the fairly lengthy lift queue (not instructing, not in uniform, just a lad with facial hair zooming around) repeatedly.

You know it makes sense.

Here is an operators point of view (I am one at The Snow Centre Hemel Hempstead)

We have a minimum standard to use the main slope, but this is a self declaration process and people do over rate their ability! So inevitably people do get it wrong (and some try it on). Our philosophy is to try and add to peoples experience at TSC. I really don’t want to be kicking people off and would rather convert their lift pass towards a lesson if they need one. We generally try to find a solution as “kicking “ people off is a loose loose situation. However we have a duty of care to the other users on the slope who have the right to enjoy their skiing and snowboarding in a safe and enjoyable environment.

If a user is rusty and just needs a little informal coaching from a friend etc I see no problem. In fact many of our slope patrol staff are instructors (this is a policy I am further pursuing) who will actively help wobbly users within reason. I guess the question is what is within reason.

Equally I have dealt with very intolerant recreational users who fail to see that they are sharing the facility with other people who may be a bit wobbly. I have had customers who expected the immediate expulsion and life ban from a child in a lesson who just had a bad run (that’s why she was in a lesson, to get better)! Also had comments as to why we allow so many children to ski at the weekend??????

We don’t allow use of the nursery areas as a) we need to space for our lessons which is the core business b) if a customer (without an instructor) was to ski in to child (with one of my insured and qualified instructors) and injured them where does the liability sit? What am I to tell the parents of the injured child who was booked in to a lesson for added security? Very messy situation. Also our nursery area is very busy and all the instructors are working to a grid (which is not visible) so they know where they should be teaching. A customer who is on their own would have no idea of this and possibly be teaching in an area that is allocated to a lesson. This would increase the risk of someone getting hurt.

The whole thing is a balance that takes constant adjustment and smart decision making. We have duty managers (snow side) who are making these decisions every day and trying to maintain the balance.

Ultimately we are a leisure facility and all about having a great time. Our slope side staff, instructors and Duty managers are there to try to maintain the balance between safe practice and a great experience. This requires flexibility and a little thinking out of the box at times considering every users desire for being at TSC. Not easy but generally we do get it right.

Pete Gillespie

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

gilleski, difficult balance but one I feel your team get right more often than not - with the possible exception of instructors (& far more parents) who persist in taking kids up the left hand lift for their poma training.

A snowHead

gilleski, A well balanced reasonable policy. The only beef I have with people giving "tips" is when parents take kids / mate take mates to the top when they obviously aren't ready and then proceed to do dangerous things (skiing the kids between their legs, people crashing into the walls etc). When politely quizzed the usual answer is they are "a bit rusty and just need a couple runs to warm up", sometimes this is genuinely the case but imv usually done to bypass lessons. I tend to advise them (although not my place to) to get off half way up and that usually sorts the problem out and makes the slope and the newbies safer.

fatbob, I have never seen an instructor taking newby skiers up the left hand side but I see plenty of early stage boarders who go on the left hand poma (that services the jumps and features), cant see the button coming from their blind side and take forever to get on...

A snowHead

Mosha Marc, I have only ever been tipped once in a snowdome at that was a tenner at MK wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Mosha Marc, I've moaned on sH before about the same thing at MK. Girlfriend fell over, I scooted up to her to give some 5-second bit of advice ("keep your weight forward a bit more" or something similarly revelatory) and within literally seconds a piste womble appeared from nowhere and gave me a bollocksing.

Doesn't happen so much at Hemel, they seem a lot more relaxed about it.

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gilleski, I agree and the times we have been to Hemel it's much more relaxed, and the snow is better.

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Mosha Marc, thats why it is all about dynamic decision making and constant risk assessment. There can not be a "fits in a box off the shelf policy" IMO.
We try to remain customer focused.

PSG

After all it is free

ajrduff, I feel pretty much the same.

I think you were just unlucky, i reckon you drew attention to yourself when you tried to use the nursery slope. Their so easy going there (slack) in 3 years i've only been asked for a lift pass once Laughing

the only thing they seem to be pro active about is people who clearly can't ski trying to blag there way down the main slope.

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ajrduff, laundryman, Not sure what level you ski at but imo anyone up to about Level 9 (on the inside out scale) can really learn something in a fridge provided they have the eye of an instructor on them. That's what makes such a trip really interesting. Otherwise practice carefully the aims and drills from your last lesson (which we all write down don't we ) and again something is learned and it is interesting.

JUst going up and down is also good in that it's mileage and gets the rust off but it really pays dividends with an instructor on hand who is alert to your level.

I am lucky in that I go to sessions where the volunteer instructors from my local Club are cleared to do this teaching so I get personal pointers though I don't know how the Fridge instructors respond to this need --do they have graded lessons right up the scale ?

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Minimum_1 and myself had 1.5hrs at Chill Factore this morning, there was a person on the slope snow ploughing down with a toddler between their legs and two parents very obviously (at least in my view) teaching a barely snowploughing youngster from the top of the slope, I didn't see either party stopped from doing either activity.

I can't say I was very impressed with the lower LH quarter of the main slope being fenced off so that a team of about 10 adults could sledge on jumped up inflated lilos either.

However, in terms of ad hoc instructing I wonder how my situation would be viewed, i.e. when I turn around and ask my 13 yr old daughter how I am doing and what she has seen that I didn't catch myself doing and could improve on!!

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Generally I feel the piste patrol get things right but not being able to assist a friend / relative is a bit harsh and not something I would accept. It maybe someones trying to make a presence . If you feel you are being hard done by, get your phone out and inform the piste patrol that you are now going to record the remainder of the conversation to which you will then take to their management for further discussion.

Farley Goode, all true, no doubt. If skiing were my only interest and I had fewer duties to perform, I'd be there. I'm lucky to be getting about 20 days' skiing in the mountains this season, and I'll have plenty of distractions when I'm home. I don't live particularly close to a dome either. So it's just a matter of priorities for me, and visiting a snow dome (which I've done a couple of times) is fairly low down the list.

You know it makes sense.

FWIW I think more people would take up lessons in a snowdome if they weren't so terribly expensive. I've just checked chill factore and to get a private lesson for 2 people for 50 minutes (which would probably give you no more than 10-12 runs down the slope) its £130. I've just paid around £60 per hour for two people to have an instructor between them in Austria (which I think seems dearer than lessons in France if memory serves), but although that seems expensive to me it is nothing in comparison with the costs of the indoor lessons. However, I think a bit of common sense is necessary on the part of everyone - the slope management and the users, it is natural that everyone with any experience on the slope with friends and family will sometimes think of something that might assist them. IMO there is a world of difference between a couple of 5 minute pep talks to improve the skiing of a friend or family members and spending a whole hour with someone teaching them to ski.

It sometimes seems to me that the recreational skier who just wants to ski gets some of the worse deals. We pay a fair amount of cash, where ever we go (and I've skied HH, MK and Manchester Chill Factore), and rarely get the slope that we have paid for in its entirety - often we have to deal with left over obstacles from freestyle nights, bits of the main slope cordonned off etc. and then we are scared to open our mouths to assist family and friends for fear we get slung off for 'teaching'.

I also can't see why non-instructor accompanied people can't use the beginner slope, I saw a very newbie kid with an instructor yesterday making what were clearly her first runs down the main slope - big wide snowplough turns - very nervous. Certainly the sort of learner who could easily have their confidence knocked by someone ploughing into her and IMO just as much chance, if not more so, of that happening on the main slope as on the beginner slope when you look at some of the people that were also using it (at least one chap I saw yesterday) springs to mind Shocked

I have a good deal of sympathy with the OP.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, i dont think its just the cost that prevents people but once you get to a certain level you probably need to be really specific about which instructor you get too,

I know you've got the likes of skimottaret, doing levels right through the range of abilities but if you turn up at a dome adhoc I don't know if you will find a suitably trained Instructor on duty or free to take you to the next level.

A snowHead

Our impression on our Hemel visit was that the slope was neither long nor steep enough for anything other than shaking off the rust or checking the fit of new boots. Great for beginners though.

Having said that, I had been considering taking a refresher lesson until I checked the prices. Talk about extracting the urine.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Talking of how not to teach kids skiing. This video is doing the rounds at the moment, how to put your poor child off skiing for life.

http://youtube.com/v/LrobfTFOfzk

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Elmer,

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FENTON!

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After all it is free

Hi all just been reading this thread with interest as I was at hemel on Sunday night and in particularly Pete gillespies thread about maintaining a safe environment.

I am sorry Pete but if you think the main slope of hemel is a safe environment then you are severely wrong.

Of the skiers and snowboarders using hemel I would say that less than 50% of those were going a speed that matched the skill possessed now I could spot this within minutes but your slope patrol seem more concerned with showing off on the slope than having a word with anyone.

One favourite gentleman I was watching in a pair of jeans that must of been sprayed on skied from the top managed to take out a skier do a lovely frank Spencer 360 and than completely remove the safety netting (which was just as well as he was heading towards the poma) within a yard of a ski instructor only to still be using the slope as his own personal demolition derby for the rest of the evening.

I saw a boarder who thought he was peter pan get some air take out another boarder get back on the poma asked by the slope patrol to leave only to say "it wasn't me it was an accident" and see the clearly intimidated slope patrol completely back down and apologize to the idiot.

But my favourite still has to be the idiot who decided to buzz the blind skier then jump next to her making a big whoop as he did and clearly leave her distressed going a speed best suited to his drive home.

Let's be honest about it you know that a large percentage of people using the slopes should not be but your in a business to make as much money as you can and peoples safety clearly comes second to this.

I feel apprehensive coming down the slope I would hate to be a beginning going a speed which I was in control at only to be taken down from behind.

As someone who is still learning and used Hemel a lot in December I have to agree that some are out of control. Mainly due to thinking they can go as fast as they like and not having the ability to stop or control their speed and yes I've seen them go straight through the nets, this is not due to catching an edge. I personally am not small and know the damage you can do by running over someone and probably ski slower than I should, but with traffic this is what I'm comfortable with.

There has been 1 or 2 that I would question whether they've even had a lesson, they should have been removed.

Buzzers! ie; the guy that scared the blind skier. They really should go.

Those that have done lessons and can control their speed and turns are entitled to be on there, even though the faster more experienced see them as dangerous due to skiing across the slope rather than going straight down.

I've also seen a few who have lost confidence as they haven't skied for 10 mths or so and obviously still learning, these people are usually skiing to their ability after a few runs and controlling their speed. My missus was one of these and the patrol helped her massively as it was just about confidence, she was fine within 3 runs.

Bottom line, small area with a massive difference in ability is going to cause problems. It is quite a relaxed atmosphere which works for me and the patrol and everyone who works there have been excellent, the last thing you want is power hungry jobs-worths with a jacket on.

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Giving Tips In A Snowdome - 'Fraid not sir

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