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Camelbak (?) running/skiing ...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
After continually forgetting/sitting on water bottles, the last thing on my list is a backpack with water hydration bag tube thing. I'm torn, and seek your collective wisdom.

Want something pretty small - to hold nowt more than a few mars bars, *maybe* a thermal layer, but not too bothered. Wallet, sunglasses. That's about it.

Was looking at the winter camelbaks - as friend had an issue with her tube freezing up, and the insulation might help prevent that a bit?

However, I also run (irregularly), and have always had to run without water as I can't carry anything in my hands, and hate the joggling/counter-swaying of a normal back pack (up to 6 miles without water is fine, after that less so*). Apparently waist straps help with this (and I guess maybe having a really low profile one would help)?

This would be more used for skiing/general use than running, but don't want to rule out running altogether (in case I sign up for a toughmudder and need to train distance).

Wondering if anyone else doubles up the backpack / has suggestions?

Looking at winter camelbaks - http://shop.camelbak.com/2012-gambler/d/50051_c_1410_cl_2148 - has straps. But it's mainly designed for off piste - probe bits/shovel - which I wont have. Is that overkill? Would it even work for running?

Or would I be better off getting a running pack and buying insulation sleeves and bits to convert it to skiing? Would that be enough to stop it freezing, or is there more to the winterbags than just insulated tube? http://shop.camelbak.com/2012-octane-xct/d/1047_c_6_cl_438

Alternative suggestions welcome!


*after a 12 mile run I was so dehydrated/tired I ended up hugging a friend's toilet after attempting water/food, couldn't take on board anything for a few hours. Sucked.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
OliviaDB, You can't have been breast fed as an infant to get this indecisive in your dotage rolling eyes

Dakine makes a military backpack that is just a bladder pack with the ability to clip on additional modules to take it up to a 25ltr equipment pack. I'll dig and see if there's a civilian version, if not I'll see if I can access another issue item. There are two sizes . . . a wee birdy says ya may be . . . ahem . . . a rather 'robust' young woman Embarassed

edit: there's no color(sic) choice.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
How much water do you need when running? Many/most camelbaks are all 3litre. And judging by the fact that the straps need cranking down for MTBing, might be a bit unpleasant running. That's either a lot of weight moving up/down, or a kg of water sloshing up/down. I'd say it's the chest strap that's more important (and the one that causes injury with MTB crashes), rather than waist strap.

See lots of runners (and inline skaters, and the guys training for XC skiing on those skis with wheels) when I'm out on the bike, and all tend to have bottles on a hip/waist band thing. No clammy back and soggy clothes.

For skiing... as you may or may not have noticed... I just fit what I need in pockets. Wear the bonus layer, so can unzip jacket to cool down, rather than add a layer to warm up. Rehydration c/o bars on the mountain (OK I can understand people not wanting to pay for too many drinks at French mountain prices). Spare gloves might be a nice to have, especially if there's nowhere to dry them at lunch stop.

Someone else can comment on stopping the pipe freezing. AFAIK the neoprene outer does sort of work.

Would have suggested Octane (many variations of that) as a small one. Or the hydroback, or the hip-pack. None of those will have space for fleece layer. That's just camelbak TM. Deuter are good too, but try them on. I think the straps are too close together.

Think my smallest is a Camelbak Lobo. 3 liters water, space for more mars bars than you could need on the mountain, but no space for a fleece or gloves.
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I've had a few backpacks with water bladders, can definitely confirm you will have problems with the tube freezing up. (i even had problems with it in Arabba where it was quite mild)

I've never been one for brands, personally I'd by them as seperates, a nice backpack, then a bladder and a insulated tube.

Alternatively, you could buy a normal bladder and fill it with alcohol..
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
oooh now a 3 litre hipflask filled with rum... now you're talking.
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I stopped the tube from freezing by just blowing the water in the tube back into the bladder. Worked for me.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Masque wrote:
OliviaDB, You can't have been breast fed as an infant to get this indecisive in your dotage rolling eyes

Dakine makes a military backpack that is just a bladder pack with the ability to clip on additional modules to take it up to a 25ltr equipment pack. I'll dig and see if there's a civilian version, if not I'll see if I can access another issue item. There are two sizes . . . a wee birdy says ya may be . . . ahem . . . a rather 'robust' young woman Embarassed

edit: there's no color(sic) choice.


I hate decisions. They genuinely bother me. Oh look there's even a fairly rubbish study thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less
Or better: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2012/nov/15/david-mitchell-soapbox-freedom-choose-video

I'll look at Dakine. And robust?! I can't work out if that's referring to my not quite tall enough but almost height, my build, my boobs, my weight... It's all very well being polite, but not when I can't work out whether you have the correct impression. (Btw - you can see my completely normal build in my apres joyful ski post.) It's certainly not a strength thing, as I have pathetic upper body strength for my size.

Razz
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Echo the comment abive, blow the water back into the bladder to eliminate freezing. The one time I didn't do that, I was suffering in need of water!
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Masque, she lies. She could pick you up and throw you into the snow, despite initial appearances Wink Shocked Must be ninjitsu technique.

Dakine (pita trying to type that on android with auto correct - comes out as famine) is worth a look. Osprey are the dogs danglies but might be too big - might be an off piste type pack?
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The BCA Stash rucksacks had/have a tube that is insulated and zips into a shoulder strap. I have one and have used it with some success - especially with blowing the water back like michael suggests.

However, these days I hate bladder systems with something of a passion. They are delicate so you can't just sit on your sack for lunch, they have a habbit of leaking or splitting (Mrs A had one dump almost its entire contents inside her sack) and they're a faff to clean.

If you're in resort then just stop at a restaurant. Otherwise, a Nalgene bottle all the way.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Does cold make them fragile? Stacked it too many times on the bike, and my camelbak tm ones seem robust. Wouldn't sit on them with my weight. I know the tubes go a bit stiff.
Cleaning can be a minor faff, but you don't need to do that daily whilst away. I just have this habit of not emptying them, and leaving them half full for 3 weeks.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
andy wrote:
How much water do you need when running? Many/most camelbaks are all 3litre. And judging by the fact that the straps need cranking down for MTBing, might be a bit unpleasant running. That's either a lot of weight moving up/down, or a kg of water sloshing up/down. I'd say it's the chest strap that's more important (and the one that causes injury with MTB crashes), rather than waist strap.

See lots of runners (and inline skaters, and the guys training for XC skiing on those skis with wheels) when I'm out on the bike, and all tend to have bottles on a hip/waist band thing. No clammy back and soggy clothes.

For skiing... as you may or may not have noticed... I just fit what I need in pockets. Wear the bonus layer, so can unzip jacket to cool down, rather than add a layer to warm up. Rehydration c/o bars on the mountain (OK I can understand people not wanting to pay for too many drinks at French mountain prices). Spare gloves might be a nice to have, especially if there's nowhere to dry them at lunch stop.

Someone else can comment on stopping the pipe freezing. AFAIK the neoprene outer does sort of work.

Would have suggested Octane (many variations of that) as a small one. Or the hydroback, or the hip-pack. None of those will have space for fleece layer. That's just camelbak TM. Deuter are good too, but try them on. I think the straps are too close together.

Think my smallest is a Camelbak Lobo. 3 liters water, space for more mars bars than you could need on the mountain, but no space for a fleece or gloves.


Not tons. Because I've never been able to take it with me, I tend to down a litre on my return. Which probably isn't good. 3litres is probably too much.

Hmm. So maybe I should just get a different thing for running, which would make ski choice easier. Or harder, because then I'd be back to every ski bag with no other consideration limiting numbers. ARHGGHHHh.

I've been surviving via bars - but the contrast between the amount of water I drink at home (lots) and skiing (almost none till evening) is great, and definitely the wrong way around!

I'll have another look around the shops in the next couple of days.

Hate choice

Thank you
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Kelv1n wrote:
I've had a few backpacks with water bladders, can definitely confirm you will have problems with the tube freezing up. (i even had problems with it in Arabba where it was quite mild)

I've never been one for brands, personally I'd by them as seperates, a nice backpack, then a bladder and a insulated tube.

Alternatively, you could buy a normal bladder and fill it with alcohol..


... I was saving my Christmas hip flask for that. Don't want to drunk ski - I'm malcoordinated enough as it is!

andy wrote:
oooh now a 3 litre hipflask filled with rum... now you're talking.


I think that would probably be enough to kill you. You'd have to share. wink

michael stocking wrote:
I stopped the tube from freezing by just blowing the water in the tube back into the bladder. Worked for me.


Useful tip. If I ever make a decision, I'll try this!

Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
andy wrote:
Masque, she lies. She could pick you up and throw you into the snow, despite initial appearances Wink Shocked Must be ninjitsu technique.

Dakine (pita trying to type that on android with auto correct - comes out as famine) is worth a look. Osprey are the dogs danglies but might be too big - might be an off piste type pack?


Depends how much he resists. And if I'm doing it right, it shouldn't need strength.
Now, ROSIE on the other hand, could throw anyone. But she's terrifying (awesome).
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
altis wrote:
The BCA Stash rucksacks had/have a tube that is insulated and zips into a shoulder strap. I have one and have used it with some success - especially with blowing the water back like michael suggests.

However, these days I hate bladder systems with something of a passion. They are delicate so you can't just sit on your sack for lunch, they have a habbit of leaking or splitting (Mrs A had one dump almost its entire contents inside her sack) and they're a faff to clean.

If you're in resort then just stop at a restaurant. Otherwise, a Nalgene bottle all the way.


Will check BCA ones too. Thank you.

My issue with a bottle is I remember my bag, but never the bottle. That said - it's because airports confiscate my water ones, and I forget to buy a new one the other side. If it's a nalgene one I reserve for skiing, I'd not take it filled/in hand luggage -so I'd have it to hand and not forget.
Hmm.

I wil consider that option. Thank you.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I have a small backpack with bladder, designed for runners but is the perfect size for skiing - about £15 from DW Sports, their "Mifit" brand.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Don't try to get the same thing for skiing and running; it'll end up being disappointing or irritating for one or the other (or both).

For skiing, you'd be better off with a bottle, even uninsulated, stuffed in your bag. Unless you're doing some sort of epic ski marathon on nordic gear, there are always opportunities to stop and drink, right?

If it is really cold, blowing water out of the tube of a camelbak-style thing won't be enough because the little droplets leftover in the tube and in the valve will still freeze evemtually. Once the valve has frozen the bag will be less useful than a bottle, and you do run the risk of permanently damaging the valve (voice of bitter experience here!). The rucksacks which have an insulated sleeve built into one of the shoulder straps are probably the best way to go, but they're not perfect.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My daysack accepts a hydration pack, and has an insulated, and zippered sleeve on the shoulder strap to accomodate the drink hose. Even then, it still freezes. One method you can use to help prevent it is to blow the fluid back through the hose into the pack, so the hose is empty. However, it still sometimes suffers freezing in the drink valve as that can't be completely cleared, and you also risk inflating the pouch oif you're not careful, and it could pop if you fell on it and it was inflated too much.
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Whatever one you get - keep it clean - trust me on this Shocked

Sterident tabs do the trick. Stick empty bladder and hose in freezer when not in use. Neoprene hose (a la the bca stash) does a good job of preventing freezing (the Stash itself threads the hose through the shoulder and strap for further insulation - never had a freeze up - top kit though not sure they do small versions that you' prefer)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Another vote for the BCA stash. Skied through -12 last week and no problems with freezing.
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I'm a runner (distance) and skier and I tend to swap between a low profile backpack water system and a bottle in a waist belt. For short runs i will use the bottle and a waist pack these are great, easy to access and allows you to monitor your water intake more easily, but the packs can move about a bit when running, I have had some nasty blisters from this, but this was mainly due it being very hot and stupidly wearing a cotton t-shirt! Not sure I would use a waist pact for skiing as the bottles can fall out if you're not careful about using the bungy cords most of them have.

For long runs (3 hours plus) where clean water is going to be a potential issue I will use a 2litre backpack hydration system (sometimes combined with a waist pack if I need to haul a lot of water or extra gear). Backpacks are fine as long as you do not sweat heavily, but I have never noticed water sloshing about in a backpack. I use a camelbak system, one that only carries water and has a tiny pocket that will just take a couple of power bars and micro coat, not extra pocket or straps - this low profile means I can put a rain coat on over the top of it while running. This is also what I do skiing, I tend to wear the camelbak under my jacket, never had it freeze and the pipe is still easy to get to, not great for carrying gear, but that's what pockets are for!

I also I use dishwasher tablets to clean the bladder of the camelback - seems to work a treat!

You'll and up buying both and swapping between them, then you'll get different waist packs for different events and find you have to use your "lucky" bottle.....

my waist pack - http://www.inov-8.com/New/Global/Product-View-RaceElite-3.html?L=26
older version of this sort of thing - http://shop.camelbak.com/2012-zoid/d/1048_cl_399
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
JUst got one of these myself:

http://www.ldmountaincentre.com/snowboard-c23/luggage-c48/rucksacks-c55/osprey-karve-11-backpack-p3408?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=osprey-karve-11-backpack-size-l-24050009004&utm_campaign=product+listing+ads#11645

nice and slimline, not too big, just enough for a few bits and bobs.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Bought myself one last year from Decathlon (I ain't ashamed). Holds a small digital camera, extra fleece and two protein bars (just) as well as about a liter of water. Ive never had it freeze, but to be honest Ive never really been below about 10 degrees (without wind chill) with it.
As it is for running it has a webbing which fits rather like a waistcoat to stop it moving. Its also flat enough (and my snowboarding baggy enough) that I could probably put my jacket over it if I was really concerned about stuff freezing.
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You are all wonderful. Might head to Decathlon Mon morning, see what they have. Suspect BenAS is correct about getting separate things...

So much to get before 2 weeks time. *whoooosh!*
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I use a winter camelback, blow in tube, been ok so far. Use Milton fluid for cleaning them, if it's good enough for babies bottles it'll work on bladders.
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