smagsmith, I have a feeling that you were on the off piste route not the black piste. They are separate.
Even if it was an unpisted black, it should still have had piste markers along it if it was open and I did not spot any on the video.
Looking at the narrow exit at the end, that also looks to me like the end of the off piste route.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Dr Rock, Hard work???? It finished me off for the day.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes to me it also looks like the vallon de sache off piste route. I have skied off piste from the col de la sachette down through the vallon de sache and the nature reserve. And your vid looked like it was half way down the route I did, and your exit back onto the tail end of the sache piste is from memory where we cut across the sache piste before traversing along again off piste and under the sache gondola and then skiing down to brev.
I'm glad you safely negotiated your way down. You could easily have ended up down a cliff towards the end of the route but managed to find the very narrow path back through the trees onto the Sache piste.
Your video also showed one of the biggest dangers when skiing in such terrain. The snowboarders ABOVE YOU set off a very small slip of snow which could have been a lot bigger with different consequences. All too often when sking off piste, even with a professional mountain guide and equipped with "avi gear", others will simply follow us and endanger us because they haven't any idea of what they are doing.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
welshflyer wrote:
smagsmith,
Your video also showed one of the biggest dangers when skiing in such terrain. The snowboarders ABOVE YOU set off a very small slip of snow which could have been a lot bigger with different consequences. All too often when sking off piste, even with a professional mountain guide and equipped with "avi gear", others will simply follow us and endanger us because they haven't any idea of what they are doing.
^+1
Unfortunately that is always something you have to manage, esp somewhere like the Sache off piste. It may be a question of not skiing a popular run like the Sache if you have a lot of other groups on the slopes and the risk is 3 or higher. It may be a case of having the last skier stop (or attempt to stop) other skiers entering the slope or in the case of the sache entrance, traversing to where there are fewer skiers. Not easy, esp. in somewhere like Tignes where you have some aggressive people.
The video is quite scary really. It shows the dangers of poor skiers accessing this kind of terrain, in fact they didn't even know exactly where they were (off piste on a risk 3 day on a slopes that had previously avalanched on the 12th seriously injuring a skier). One of the skiers falls repeatedly so is out of his depth here [not sure if he was part of the group]. A fall puts a much higher load on the snow pack than a turn. We've also got the snowboarders slope cutting with obviously instabilities, a bigger pitch and even that depth of slide could have serious consequences.
A closed piste will have a "closed piste" sign on it. An "unpisted" piste will have piste poles either side at 100m intervals with the piste name. (some resorts just put a single pole down the middle). That is the European standard. The exceptions might be pistes cut through woods where there the piste is obvious from the trees and where a piste has not yet been opened for the season :- http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/off-piste-avalanches/
Honestly Tignes and Val d'Isere are not places to be blundering around off piste as other posters have said, get a guide or better an instructor who does off piste tuition; you will have a lot more fun.
No harm done, lesson learned, we've all done stupid stuff and made mistakes and it was a bit of an adventure.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 1-01-13 13:48; edited 3 times in total
davidof, thanks. The video certainly scared me and, as so often, I've learned a lot from your post.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
davidof wrote:
A closed piste will have a "closed piste" sign on it. An "unpisted" piste will have piste poles either side at 100m intervals with the piste name. (some resorts just put a single pole down the middle). That is the European standard. The exceptions might be pistes cut through woods where there the piste is obvious from the trees.
.
I guess that was my point. I could not see anything saying unpisted or closed. Had there of been signs, then maybe we would not have gone down it.
cheers
Smag
After all it is free
After all it is free
smagsmith, I think the point is there was nothing to say it was a piste, ie it was off piste. Really glad you and your buddy were ok but it was a scary video to watch, with you guys clearly out of your depth in a dangerous situation.
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smagsmith wrote:
davidof wrote:
A closed piste will have a "closed piste" sign on it. An "unpisted" piste will have piste poles either side at 100m intervals with the piste name. (some resorts just put a single pole down the middle). That is the European standard. The exceptions might be pistes cut through woods where there the piste is obvious from the trees.
.
I guess that was my point. I could not see anything saying unpisted or closed. Had there of been signs, then maybe we would not have gone down it.
cheers
Smag
Yes a case in point being the Ancolie run where Rafe Hattaway died in Tignes, I've added the link to this.
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smagsmith, I think the point is that there were no poles. So it was off-piste. So there was nothing to sign.
Edit: sorry, cross post, the phone rang before I pressed 'submit'.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Pedantica, I agree. It may have helped if at the top of the run, there was a sign saying not pitsed yet. The standard sign was there pointing to the Sashe, but nothing stating it was unbashed. I think there should have been some indication as to the state of the run before you enter it. If I had skied it before and had pisted conditions, I could have presumed it was the same this year as there was no unpisted sign. To the piste skier (me), there was no indication what was in store apart from a black run.
Like others have said. Lessons learned and an interesting experience.
Cheers
Smag
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
smagsmith wrote:
If I had skied it before and had pisted conditions, I could have presumed it was the same this year as there was no unpisted sign. To the piste skier (me), there was no indication what was in store apart from a black run.
Like others have said. Lessons learned and an interesting experience.
From your video and what you have said I think some sign posting would be a good idea.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I came across this which shows the perils of route finding if you are unfamiliar with an area. I can't help thinking these guys were a tad lucky.
If I had skied it before and had pisted conditions, I could have presumed it was the same this year as there was no unpisted sign. To the piste skier (me), there was no indication what was in store apart from a black run.
Like others have said. Lessons learned and an interesting experience.
From your video and what you have said I think some sign posting would be a good idea.
There does appear to be some confusion with early season piste marking. To save confusion I don't see why the piste patrol don't erect 'closed' banners on variations which have yet to be opened.
In Tignes early December I along with many others we skied a 'piste' with a rolled up closed sign at the start, but no piste marker poles at the sides. On reflection it's hard to imagine that the rolled up closed banner had been there since the spring which further suggests it was open...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
AndAnotherThing..,
A TAD lucky, a few of falls; one down the gully that could have been game over; one onto a rock that could have had a similar outcome. Immagine Evac in that viz/snowfall.....
Couple of small av's and one lost pole. I think the faces at the end say it all.... Opps, feck that was stupid....
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
AndAnotherThing.., that video could have easily been an "in memorium" if those guys had been just a bit unlucky.
God forbid anyone else sees their tracks starting off and thinks it will be alright....somebody else has been down there.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
..or indeed put a little cover over the signs for pistes that are not opened yet.
However, I doubt that will ever happen. I think this reflects the different attitude of the French towards danger. In Tarn Hows in the Lake District there is a sign that warns that grass can be slippery when wet. In France you are expected to take more responsibility for your own safety. I suspect this instills a greater natural awareness that keeps people out of danger.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
smagsmith, I was in Val d'Isere that week, all the major imfomation boards and resort website had details of which runs were open. The Sache was closed all week, as we had intended to ski down it.
smagsmith, I was in Val d'Isere that week, all the major imfomation boards and resort website had details of which runs were open. The Sache was closed all week, as we had intended to ski down it.
Thats another lesson for me to learn then. We never looked at info boards once. We always stick to the piste ( except on this occasion), and make decisions on where to ski next at the top of each lift. I have never checked info boards, because I stick to marked and open pistes usually. The next time, if ever, I want to try something a bit different, then I will make sure I am making informed decisions.
On reflection we took a lot of risks, but at the time it seemed a safe option and was unaware of the dangers. Normally I am a very safe kind of person who never takes risks. I guess I need to educate myself on how to spot the risks, then at least I can make a educated decision. At the time I remember thinking, there are no signs saying it is closed, so it must be ok.
cheers
Smag
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
I came across this which shows the perils of route finding if you are unfamiliar with an area. I can't help thinking these guys were a tad lucky.
All the gear but FFS they can hardly ski, even for the intended route let alone the one they ended up on! I cannot be the only one thinking "GSA's" and that they really should learn how to ski before trying poo-poo like this. It could have been so much worse and they seem utterly oblivious to this. WTF
AndAnotherThing.., holy cow!!!!
The great thing about the fact that so many people now have head cams is that at least we can all learn something from watching madness like this.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Dunk wrote:
smagsmith, I was in Val d'Isere that week, all the major imfomation boards and resort website had details of which runs were open. The Sache was closed all week, as we had intended to ski down it.
Info boards give a good 'spot check' but the situation will often change through the day, especially with itinerary type runs. It's not unreasonable to make a decision at the top.
I had to laugh last week when I reached the start of an off piste itinerary where the closed gate was rolled up. The info board had said it was closed but the gate had been up the previous day. The start is next to a piste security hut so I popped over and asked. The answer was a shrug and 'Maybe'
After all it is free
After all it is free
Elston wrote:
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
I came across this which shows the perils of route finding if you are unfamiliar with an area. I can't help thinking these guys were a tad lucky.
All the gear but FFS they can hardly ski, even for the intended route let alone the one they ended up on! I cannot be the only one thinking "GSA's" and that they really should learn how to ski before trying poo-poo like this. It could have been so much worse and they seem utterly oblivious to this. WTF
The guy with the helmet cam hucking the cliffs was brave[1], considering he didn't really know what was below but a couple of them didn't look great skiers. Then all the blether at the end "ach we woz out there, skiing the space, chilling out, getting into the flow, four buddies on an epic adventure bla bla bla". He must be Alec Salmond's son with that blether.
[1]that can mean other things!
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If you carry a load of tat, spare slings, ice hammer and a few pegs and hexes you can get away with a lot of descents. As said above, these guys were lucky quite a few times and in the poor vis may have ended up getting stuck above a drop too far to ab in one go.
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davidof wrote:
Elston wrote:
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
I came across this which shows the perils of route finding if you are unfamiliar with an area. I can't help thinking these guys were a tad lucky.
Check the map at 3:12
All the gear but FFS they can hardly ski, even for the intended route let alone the one they ended up on! I cannot be the only one thinking "GSA's" and that they really should learn how to ski before trying poo-poo like this. It could have been so much worse and they seem utterly oblivious to this. WTF
The guy with the helmet cam hucking the cliffs was brave[1], considering he didn't really know what was below but a couple of them didn't look great skiers. Then all the blether at the end "ach we woz out there, skiing the space, chilling out, getting into the flow, four buddies on an epic adventure bla bla bla". He must be Alec Salmond's son with that blether.
[1]that can mean other things!
I don't know the skiers involved but leaving aside their daft decision making, it seems obvious that they all managed the actual skiing rather well, especially bearing in mind the the piss poor visibility and the steep, unfamiliar terrain that they were likely terrified to have found themselves needing to tackle.
But then again, to me, the judgemental snowheads skiing gods seem more like TGR's every day.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
That video has the worst music ever.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Moffatross. I agree. The guys can ski.
Which is lucky really, as they can't navigate for sheeeit!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
moffatross wrote:
But then again, to me, the judgemental snowheads skiing gods seem more like TGR's every day.
You are being over generous. The guy with the helmet cam and the guy in green ski well, especially given the conditions but the other two look sketchy. Probably ok ripping it up with their fat skis but clearly not made for the "fall you die stuff".
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
davidof,
Quote:
the other two look sketchy. Probably ok ripping it up with their fat skis but clearly not made for the "fall you die stuff".
That's exactly what I thought. In fact I thought, as I was watching, that those two could have done with having studied that marvellous Lecluse video which has been posted up a few times, in which he showed how to do a single, super-controlled turn - on an extremely steep pitch - on a postage stamp.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Pedantica wrote:
that those two could have done with having studied that marvellous Lecluse video which has been posted up a few times, in which he showed how to do a single, super-controlled turn - on an extremely steep pitch - on a postage stamp.
I bet they didn't expect to be skiing that kind of terrain. I wonder when they realized when they'd gone wrong and whether climbing out would have been an option? They seemed competent setting up the belays and thank god they had at least a 50 meter rope with them; there were some epic rappels. If they'd called the rescue services they would probably have had to set up a whinch at the entrance to the pitch and try to get them out that way.
2000 meters of descent instead of 200 meters! What a mad day out.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yes the visibility is bad and maybe I was a bit harsh with my comments but I stand by my point that they do not look technically strong enough skiers to be seeking terrain like the intended route let alone where they ended up skiing.
Not sure I agree, although easy to say this watching a video from the warmth of home. He wasted two minutes getting the transceiver when someone else could be heard saying that they could see the person. Not sure what went wrong with the gloves, but after a brief attempt to put them back on he threw them on the snow only to struggle 5 minutes later with hands too cold to continue digging. He swapped the backpack for one containing a shovel with apparently no handle. So, while there was no audible panic, I think he was probably quite panicked inside, and who wouldn't be.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
moffatross wrote:
But then again, to me, the judgemental snowheads skiing gods seem more like TGR's every day.
+1
The video is worth posting for the 2.30 "whoa Philip" moment alone.
I've no idea how well that party can ski but I doubt this video is a fair reflection of it, they admitted to being out of their depth and no doubt were pretty tired with the rappelling,etc.
I'm guessing from the body language etc that this was a guide or instructor with clients. I can't turn up the volume to hear all of what was going on.
It's easy to judge from the comfort of my own home but, since we are supposed to be learning lessons, I'll throw in a few comments:
1) 'guide' followed the victim during the fall (good). Did he warn the others (I couldn't hear properly)?
2) 'guide' quickly took command of the situation (v. good) but then started separating another 'client' from their gear (WTF)
3) IMV, he should have assessed their safety and then sent down a runner to look for clues.
4) a difficult judgement with inexperienced 'clients', but IMV, the commander should stay in a place of safety out of the search and just direct operations. Not only does this help them keep a balanced overview it stops him getting panicked by the search.
5) once the victim was found, all the other 'clients' stayed safely out of the way as much as possible (v. good)
6) a handle on a shovel is always useful - no matter how close to the surface the victim appears
7) gloves on / off / on / off - wasting potentially valuble time
I think the lesson is: don't just practice the beacon search - go the whole hog and see how your team can manage the whole situation. Also bear in mind that anyone could end up being the commander.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 2-01-13 22:06; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yes the visibility is bad and maybe I was a bit harsh with my comments but I stand by my point that they do not look technically strong enough skiers to be seeking terrain like the intended route let alone where they ended up skiing.
The group is only as strong as the weakest skier.
Don't forget that they were probably pretty tired given the complexity and length of the eventual descent. I didn't take much notice of their skiing but even 'good' skiers will be pretty ropey when exhausted in difficult conditions, and of course that increases the risk.
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Well I reckon I'm a better navigator but I wouldn't mind being able to ski as well as the weakest skiers in that group.
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AndAnotherThing.., that's an important point I hadn't considered. Many thanks
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