 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm off to the gym, then skiing. See you in March folks 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Scrumpy, so, what you have to deal with (a number of SCGB members did their best in 2001) is ...
1. Why were the expulsion clauses of the SCGB re-written for SCGB Ltd, to remove the right of accused members to appear at Council meetings addressing their fate?
2. Why was the quorum specification for expulsions changed, so that SCGB Ltd members could be expelled more easily - with a lower proportion of Council members necessary to vote a member out?
3. Why was all this railroaded through a SCGB annual general meeting, with no circulation of the proposed constitution, and no discussion? After 90 years of a Club carefully refining its constitution, the entire thing was upturned in a trice!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SCGB insider wrote: |
| Scrumpy, so, what you have to deal with ...... |
No I don't have to deal with anything - you have to.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Scrumpy, you actually have lots to deal with ...
4. These people you communicate with. Have you noticed that they each have their main eye on the prize, not the good of the 'Club' they deem so precious?
5. Your own anonymity. It's an issue.
6. That half-price SCGB membership offer. Best, in future, if it's mailed out to people who are not in the 'expelled member' category. Probably best, from your point of view, if membership contracts are not granted to 'expelled members'. This is something to raise with the Membership Services dept.
7. Best not to give away free SCGB memberships either (e.g. to ski writers etc.). This indicates that the actual processing/payment of a subscription fee is not axiomatic to a SCGB membership being proven.
The heavy discounting of SCGB memberships in the past couple of seasons ('beginner' memberships at over 60% off, 50% off standard memberships) was preceded by these free memberships. It's even more serious that these 'free' memberships are undefined in constitutional terms - therefore granting controlling votes and ownership share of the Club to non-payers. It may be part of the schmoozing process, but it's not sensible in these contexts.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 20-01-15 17:49; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ Assume reps , leaders disappear due French decisions being followed in other countries too.
What happens then?
Difficult to justify Ambassadors - or so many of them, anyway. What do those used to "expenses paid" skiing do then?
Assume paying membership numbers continue to fall. Do the Club move more towards a Fresh Tracks supported by the assets built up by the Club? Or do they release the assets to existing members?
How is that likely to be decided?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Orl this Scrumpy and 'in' sider malarkey is making me quite thirsty, I'm orf for a gurt pint, anyone care to join me? 
Cider I up landlord!
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How fully does the SCGB obey the law?
Part 1: the SCGB environmental fund 'Respect the Mountain'. The missing money
This series will appear over the coming months, in New Ski Club of Great Britain chat forum, looking at various legal issues that directors of the Ski Club of Great Britain are obliged to deal with.
For the past ten years the SCGB has annually collected a 50p/member levy on each subscription to finance a charitable/quasi-charitable environmental fund. This fund is administered by the SCGB's Environmental Working Group, which advises the SCGB Council (directors) as to how the money should be allocated. Under the Club's marketing strategy this fund is also known as 'Respect the Mountain' and it has been promoted via green wristbands, t-shirts, hoodies, ashtrays (for use while skiing) etc. The revenue from that merchandise (which has included 35,000 wristbands for sale at £2 each) has been added to the membership levy. Based on the Club's declared membership levels, and an estimate of merchandise sales to date, the total fund collected is believed to be in the region of £100,000.
The two most prominent destinations of this fund in its early years (2004-2006) were:
a. The Woodland Trust, to initiate what the Club calls a "long-term tree planting scheme"
b. Academic research on Alpine environmental issues
Here is how the SCGB currently accounts for the fund ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/respectthemountain/environment/skiclub.aspx#.VL9FtCxCjQo
Full details of scheme ("vision"): http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/respectthemountain/default.aspx#.VL9HEixCjQo
| Quote: |
The Respect the Mountain campaign has donated £34,354.22 to date. This money came from the following sources:
£6,816.22 was raised from the sale of Respect the Mountain wristbands
£27,538 was raised from the Club's membership environmental levy of 50p per subscription
The Ski Club supports projects which will have a direct and visible impact in mountain environments and snowsports
Projects may relate to responsible tourism, environmental awareness, sustainable of renewable local energy sources, sustainable snowsports, pollution, travel within mountain areas, habitat, wildlife, hydrogeology, snow cover or biodiversity. Research study proposals are also considered which can be considered to be preliminary, but likely to lead on to specific projects.
Suitable projects are researched and identified by the Club's volunteer Environment Working Group, (EWG) which makes recommendations to Council.
The campaign has made donations in the following areas:
Woodland Trust tree planting scheme - £7500 donation to plant 600 indigenous forest trees in Britain. A further £1500 donated this year.
Research project by James Lewis, entitled "Sustainable Alpine Tourism: the British Ski Industry's Role in Developing Sustainability in the French Alps" - £4250 download the full report as a pdf
Eco-boxes through Summit foundation in Verbier, Switzerland - £816.22
Makesnowsportsgreener campaign and snowsports sustainability and resort makeover - £4000
"The Big Spring Clean" - Scottish resort clean up day. This year's cost was £2600
The Eco-guide to Mountain Gear - £1788
Ski Club Leaders Train Travel subsidy of £100 each to encourage travel by train has been popular. 23 Leaders took it up this year. Cost £2300.
Freshtracks is including train travel options to Les Arcs for members in this year's holiday programme. The EWG is allocating £1600 to help keep the travel costs comparable with plane travel.
Disposable ashtrays have been handed out in resorts by Club Leaders - £1500
The Chamonix Lac Blanc Refuge hydroelectric project has been approved in principle. This project is to replace an aging and polluting diesel generator. Cost £7500.
The historic Britannia Hut near Saas Fee was built many years ago with the help of the Club. Solar panels have been installed to help save fuel, water supplies and environmentally intrusive heli lifts - £3000
Researchers at Bristol University are looking into the role of micro-organisms in snow, and how snow longevity and possibly snowfall is affected. The Club has given a grant of £4000.
We have commissioned snowcarbon to provide the Club with ongoing information on 'green travel'. This will be included in the Green Travel section and help members to plan journeys by rail. Cost £850
Contribution of £4000 towards the University of Bristol's research into the biogeochemistry of snow in the Alps and the potential impacts on the snowsports industry and ski resorts. |
That information is clearly out of date. The figure of £4000 to Bristol University is stated twice - are these different grants/contributions?
Mainly ... where's the rest of the money?
Can anyone advise as to the law on this - accounting/auditing practice etc.?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
'Scrumpy' is clearly some sort of stooge for elements in the Ski Club of Great Britain.
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'SCGB Insider' is clearly Mr Goldloon having one of his little episodes. And?
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More information on the SCGB's environmental fund here ... including another breakdown of expenditure ...
[from December 2013]
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=94856&start=2760#2412737
Would the SCGB treasurer or finance director care to comment? These types of queries have been raised over a period of some 8-9 years, but still no accounts for this fund.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| dbeatski wrote: |
| Orl this Scrumpy and 'in' sider malarkey is making me quite thirsty,! |
Excellent.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Quick question...
I can read a piste map and without blowing my own trumpet, am pretty good at it. What benefit would I see from joining a club which is worthy of a 90+ page SH thread?
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| homers double wrote: |
I can read a piste map and without blowing my own trumpet, am pretty good at it. |
If you can read a piste map while blowing a trumpet, you are a multi-tasker. But apparently you don't do this.
| homers double wrote: |
What benefit would I see from joining a club which is worthy of a 90+ page SH thread? |
If you qualify to join at the £24 'beginner' rate (would you be a 'beginner' at SCGB membership?) that may be an option ...
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/join/default.aspx#.VL-9ZixCjQo
One possibility that emerges from this thread is a form of revolution - SCGB members (who own the Club's assets) using a general meeting to close the organisation in its existing form to re-work the assets (considerable) to create something genuinely worthwhile. In the meantime, the membership services are set out quite clearly on skiclub.co.uk .
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You know it makes sense.
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You're not really an insider are you...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| homers double wrote: |
| You're not really an insider are you... |
As previously mentioned, 'SCGB insider' represents David Goldsmith, who is an officially confirmed member of the Ski Club of Great Britain (and first joined in 1962). What's your definition of "an insider"?
An interesting post on the SCGB forum this morning ... includes points that could be valuable to any ski group organiser/member ... from SCGB member David Taylor ... [a specific URL for the post doesn't seem to be available. It was logged at 01.22 on 22 January] ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/membersonly/snowtalk/discussion.aspx/Skiing-And-Snowboarding-general?discussionID=15013#.VMCOlixCjQo
| Quote: |
I have only been a member for 3 years and to be honest when I joined it had nothing to do with the Club's leaders or their role. It had everything to do with the Freshtracks holidays and the chance to meet & ski with others who shared a passion. The leaders seem to have 3 main roles :
1. Organising the ski groups : a difficult job given the limitations of the information available to them. They should have skiing level + fitness level + skier expectations
2. Assessing the skiing levels of members : also difficult given the short time & opportunity available & the limitation of the current grading system. This could & should probably be left to the instructor/guide after discussion with the skier and not in secret meetings afterwards.
3. Advising and guiding members using their local knowledge : Advice on piste skiing & resort etc is fine, but in my view off-piste guiding should be left to the professionals.
I have really enjoyed both holidays I have been on and intend to go on many more. I do have one question though, at the Premier party, the leaders allocated 8-9 skiers to the 'lower' groups while the 'higher' groups had only 5-6 skiers. Several members questions the leaders on this without getting a clear reply. Why did this happen, because presumably we all paid the same towards our holiday? Such inequities have to be addressed if the club is to remain healthy for the future. |
Extracting from that (including point 2) ...
| Quote: |
| The leaders seem to have 3 main roles: ... 2. Assessing the skiing levels of members |
Does that really happen, when a SCGB leader accompanies fully-trained ski professionals - instructors or guides? Does the SCGB 'second guess' or perform a 'co-role' with the professonal in making the skier assessment? The SCGB's stated policy couldn't be clearer in denying that, as part of its standard liability disclaimer (see standard small print on this page) ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skiclubleaders/programme.aspx?programmeID=3001#.VMCSuyxCjQo
| Quote: |
| Important Notice: Ski Club Leaders are not professional mountain guides, nor ski instructors. They are Club members who have attended a training course with us and who volunteer their services. If you wish to ski with a Ski Club Leader you do so in full knowledge that the Leader will not assess your skiing ability. |
This may appear to be a detailed point but if/when things go wrong and a skier - in an organised group but on terrain beyond their ability - gets into trouble and injures themself their assessment (as distinct from self-assessment) may be a critical factor. A ski professional will be insured and professionally indemnified, in a situation where a mistake may have been made. What about a non-professional?
Are SCGB leaders actually assessing ski ability ... or are they not?
[Historically, this takes us back to the days when SCGB reps certainly did assess skier abilities - every week, through carefully graded weekly tests covering techniques that each candidate had to pass - on a bronze/silver/gold scale. The reps didn't teach - SCGB members were encouraged to join the local ski school(s) - but they certainly assessed, as a major part of their work. Much of this activity preceded the formation of ski schools in Britain (mainly from the early 1960s, on snow or artificial slopes) but it continued through the 1970s and possibly later. The exact year that SCGB tests were discontinued isn't known.]
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 22-01-15 8:04; edited 3 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Continuing on that theme, David Taylor's other key point ...
| Quote: |
| ... in my view off-piste guiding should be left to the professionals |
... is one that has been discussed for 12 years now, on this forum and the SCGB forum. Are SCGB reps/leaders properly trained for the off-piste leadership that they undertake? Back to the SCGB "Important Notice" ... and its disclaimed liability ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skiclubleaders/programme.aspx?programmeID=3001#.VMCSuyxCjQo
| Quote: |
| Important Notice: Ski Club Leaders are not professional mountain guides, nor ski instructors. They are Club members who have attended a training course with us and who volunteer their services. If you wish to ski with a Ski Club Leader you do so in full knowledge that the Leader will not assess your skiing ability.You are responsible for your own safety, and we expect you to participate in the safety of the whole group. Skiing is an inherently risky sport and you must be physically fit and have sufficient skill and experience to enable you to participate without risk to yourself or the safety of others.You must ensure that your equipment is in good working order and that you are suitably clothed and equipped for a day of mountain activity on snow. When venturing off piste it is advisable to wear an avalanche transceiver. Unless you are accompanied by a professional mountain guide or ski instructor, you must use your own judgement when deciding which route to follow. When you are skiing under the guidance of a professional mountain guide or ski instructor organised through the Ski Club you should follow their reasonable instructions. In the event that you feel that any route is beyond your capability to ski safely, you must inform the Ski Club Leader, mountain guide or ski instructor immediately. You must accept that Ski Club Leaders, mountain guides and ski instructors have the right to prevent you from participating in any programme organised by the Ski Club if, in their reasonable opinion, you cannot participate safely because of your standard of skiing or fitness is inadequate, or your conduct may present a danger to others. Neither the Ski Club of Great Britain nor the Ski Club Winter Arrangements Limited have any liability to you in these circumstances. |
Whether this 'catch-all' type of disclaimer works in law is an open question. Are there any views (legal opinions?) on that?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@SCGB insider, did any money ever leave your account with regard to SCGB membership?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| @SCGB insider, did any money ever leave your account with regard to SCGB membership? |
That cannot be answered, because it has not been checked. The membership commenced on 6 January, based on the offer-acceptance-payment guarantee that day (did you not see the previous postings on this?) ... quoted here (again) ...
| Quote: |
Ski Club membership confirmation
FROM members@skiclub.co.uk TO You
Dear David,
Thank you for joining the Ski Club of Great Britain.
Your payment receipt
Name David Goldsmith
Membership number Your membership number will be emailed to you on the next working day
Payment for Ski Club Membership: Individual
Payment ref XXX-XXXXXXXX
Amount £31.50
Date 06 January 2015
Direct Debit The Ski Club membership team will email you with confirmation of your Direct Debit within 3 working days |
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 22-01-15 11:38; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ringingmaster wrote: |
| That's a NO then. |
It is not a NO. It is a DON'T NO/don't know.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@SCGB insider, why not check your financial transactions?
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The "financial transactions" (account) will be checked in due course. Perhaps it's relevant to remind you of the SCGB's email of 7 January
| Quote: |
Ski Club of Great Britain FROM [Named SCGB executive] TO You 7 Jan
From
[Named SCGB executive]
To
'xxxxxxxxxxx@btinternet.com'
Hello David,
I can see that you have tried to join the Ski Club using the half price offer rolled out to Registered users. We are declining your application for membership, consistent with the communications you had from the Club terminating your previous membership.
You will have received an automatic response from our site thanking you for joining the Club. This is a standard automatic response from our site, but is not proof of a fully processed membership. As your membership has not been authorised I can confirm that no money has been taken from your account.
You do have a registered user account for the site and at this time this is not affected.
Kind regards,
[Named SCGB executive]
Ski Club of Great Britain Limited |
To repeat (once again), the wording of that email is strongly contested, since a membership contract was confirmed on 6 January.
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Have you or your alter ego actually had any further discussions or communications with the ski club re Your/his membership status? I feel that bleating on and on in the 3rd party is pretty pointless if you are not discussing the issue directly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You're quite right - there's nothing to discuss, so why discuss it?
In membership terms, it's the equivalent of a live parrot.
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| SCGB insider wrote: |
You're quite right - there's nothing to discuss, so why discuss it?
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dont quite agree there - Im quite confident that some Lawyers could argue it out for both parties in exchange for much moolah.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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That may be, but DG will not waste his moolah on men with quills/wigs. Any court of law would regard the communications above as laughable.
The 6 Jan "membership confirmation" declared "Your payment receipt". The 7 Jan email declared "no money has been taken from your account."
You see room for argument there? When the SCGB is arguing with itself?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 22-01-15 12:43; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That's one episode of that god awful programme that I'd make an effort to watch.
Come on Comedy David Insider Goldsmith you know it makes sense.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
That's one episode of that god awful programme that I'd make an effort to watch.
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you think they could limit it to one episode? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Do it!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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DG has no further comment on legal aspects of this matter, at this time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Justice is just a phone call away!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not a lawyer, but I thought that in terms of buying/selling there were three stages:
1) Invitation to treat - an item displayed in a shop with a price. (or the half price membership advert) NOTE: this is not an offer.
2) Offer - it's the purchaser that makes the offer by taking the item to the till and offering to buy it at whatever price. (DG fills our application and makes an application).
3) Payment - a legally binding contract is formed when payment occurs. If no payment is made then no contract has been formed (of course automated emails etc might be triggered and the like but it's the payment that seals the deal)
The question is DG/SCGBI was payment taken................ if it was contract formed, if not there's no contract.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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it wasn't and no membership card/number was ever received. QED the insider is in fact not an insider but an outsider who think he or his alter ego is an insider. I am now going to make an earnest attempt to walk away from this thread and submit no further to discussion unless one party or the other decides to 'prove' conclusively in a court either way.
DG you constanly ascert that the club is being run badly (I am not going to argue on this because I think you probably have some merit on that point) but apart from frequent postings on a forum choose it seems to do very little. Your claim that you don't want to run through legal process formally as it would not be in the clubs interest is in some respects admirable but also sometimes you have to get the facts stated and a decision made. Perhaps a court would be the place to do that.
bye bye.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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it wasn't and no membership card/number was ever received. QED the insider is in fact not an insider but an outsider who think he or his alter ego is an insider. I am now going to make an earnest attempt to walk away from this thread and submit no further to discussion unless one party or the other decides to 'prove' conclusively in a court either way.
DG you constanly ascert that the club is being run badly (I am not going to argue on this because I think you probably have some merit on that point) but apart from frequent postings on a forum choose it seems to do very little. Your claim that you don't want to run through legal process formally as it would not be in the clubs interest is in some respects admirable but also sometimes you have to get the facts stated and a decision made. Perhaps a court would be the place to do that.
bye bye.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rogg +1.
In addition I believe that under Common Law 'Unilateral Mistake' can make a contract void. 'A Unilateral mistake is where only one party is mistaken and the other party knows about it and takes advantage of the error. A unilateral mistake also negates consent and the existence of an agreement.'
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| SCGB insider wrote: |
| ringingmaster wrote: |
| That's a NO then. |
It is not a NO. It is a DON'T NO/don't know. |
Given the amount of time and effort you spend posting on here about SCGB, and how much you insist that your new membership is valid, I'm surprised that in two weeks you haven't bothered to check if they actually took your money or not ....
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The 'mistake' DG made was coming on here bragging about his new membership too soon. He should have waited a few days, until his payment had been processed and he had received a membership number.
Offer & acceptance would then have taken place.
p.s. Did anybody else receive this e-mail offer or was DG the only one 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
