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New Ski Club of Great Britain chat forum

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Comedy Goldsmith, I have to say your dogged fortitude in this matter is truly astonishing.

So tell me, are you Woodward or Bernstein ?
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Bald men and comb fights spring to mind. The SCGB will be dead as anything but a TO in a decade unless it radically pivots. There is no role as an authoritative voice to be occupied unless it's done for love. Repping is dead until an acceptable level of international qualification is devised. Future revenue streams are based on degree of engagement and voluntary contribution not pay us and you'll get access to all this not very compelling jam tomorrow.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Can someone try and explain what is the USP of the SCGB these days ?
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
It's all amusing stuff whilst waiting for the flakes to fall.

It does look like the French labour market restrictions may spell the end of the SCGB.

Well, they could I suppose get all their people BASI 2 qualified... oh, no, that won't work.
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
snowcrazy wrote:
@achilles I read above that you said you had posted an apology. @achilles, Where is your apology to me...


I thought you included when I apologised to the forum - since you are a member. Let me be quite clear: I am sorry I offended you.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 21-11-14 14:48; edited 1 time in total
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.

dsoutar wrote:
Can someone try and explain what is the UFO of the SCGB these days ?


Fixed it for you
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
dsoutar wrote:
Can someone try and explain what is the USP of the SCGB these days ?


Sure, from a personal view at least

First some context: Being a keen climber I got into skiing quite late in life, with the aim of progressing to off-piste. Early days included skinning up and skiing down Cairngorm in the fog with my climbing mates. After a one week off -piste and backcountry course with BASS Chamonix I wanted to enjoy and develop my skiing more than my climbing mates.

The leader programme (as it was) was a great way to do this at my usual haunt in the Chamonix valley. I could pick a day with my ability range and have a great day skiing with and getting to know folk at a similar level. I have always had (and practice with) my own avi gear so haven't needed to borrow any. Also this was a good way to get better acquainted with the off piste skiing around Cham (at least that within striking distance of a lift due to SCGB "rules")

I have been on a number of Freshtracks holidays which have helped me develop tremendously under the French guides and instructors, who also grade all the participants (I have never known a SCGB leader to any grading). I appreciate that Snowheads' off piste bashes follow a similar format but without the grading, also usually only one trip a year with the details often confirmed at too short notice for me.

I find SCGB grading really useful in that when I go out with a group I know I am going to have a fun challenging day without being out of my depth or bored.

Looking forward I will still be doing the odd FT off-piste holiday and also look forward to meeting up with other SCGB skiers at my level through the "ski ambassadors" . Of course snowheads has a meet up forum for this purpose, which I may use this year - however a more cautions approach may be needed re the suitability (too good, too inexperienced etc) of unknown ski buddies.

The main benefit of the leader programme for me has been to meet and ski with like minded people of a similar (or not too much more advanced) standard to me. The fact that someone in a blue jacket decides on the route is less important; certainly now that I know my way around GM etc a lot more. Indeed I've had some great days with other SCGB skiers without a "leader" (also days out, PdC etc and day tours with my climbing mates).

Of course the SCGB is not perfect. From my climbing perspective a greater degree of self reliance should be encouraged (if only to survive if their leader or guide vanishes down a hole), transceivers should not be lent out except on intro to off piste courses, anyone skiing off-piste should own, and hence know how to use transceiver, shovel and probe, come to that a map and compass too.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 21-11-14 21:56; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
On the rocks, Cheers

Almost sounds normal. Pity it seems to have all this baggage associated with it
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@On the rocks, Agree 100% with the above! The SC offer a great social skiing service, I will admit that the off-piste leading without a "proper" mountain guide was always a little tongue-in-cheek, however these days we (as leaders) are encouraged to hire a local guide for off-piste Thursday and these are always really popular!
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@achilles, I want to publicly thank you for being fair and apologising. It is a pity others that try and make things personal are not man enough to do the same thing when they find they are wrong. I truly believe we can all have a great debate without needing to attack each other.

Before I start posting more information, please would anyone tell me politely if anything I have posted on this thread already is technically incorrect.

I agree we can all interpret some facts in different ways, but that is what debate is all about. What I object to is being told I am making things up or not telling the truth. So here is your chance.

Without trying to just score cheap points by making this personal again. If you think anything I have posted is factually incorrect, please tell me. If you are right I will also be fare and admit I have made a mistake. I do not think I have made any errors, but I could be wrong.

@On the rocks, I think what you have posted is a very good explanation. I do not agree with everything you say. You would not expect me too, but I do think it is a fair summary of how the SCGB reps use to function and provided a good service. The off piste element was and always will be a major issue for me. I note your comment about giving out gear. I am pleased to read you more or less agree with my point of view. I however do not think only transceivers should be given out on a 'intro to off piste day''.

This is a very important stage in a persons off piste learning curve and it is at the beginning you need to be taught what is correct practise. Even though I and family/friends often take the kids off piste and make them wear all the gear. I am the first to admit, where we take them, there is almost zero chance of needing it (you can never say never!).

That is not the point, it is all about teaching them when they are just starting out what is the correct thing to do. This is and always will be an issue with me having had to dig someone out of an avalanche in a most unexpected place. No I was not leading at the time.

I will come back on in a couple of days to see what has been posted. If anything shows up from what I have posted in the past that I need to correct, I will do so. Over to all of you. Time for me to hit the snow! Very Happy snowHead
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
And then an unusual peace descended on the mountain ......
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@snowcrazy, Thanks. Of course I said "off piste course" rather than "day" meaning a week long FT course with qualified guides or instructors" I've never known an SCGB running an introduction to off piste day. But I do take your point. Indeed the week long FT courses I've been on usually include an exercise to find and dig out a buried transceiver.
snow conditions
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much

dsoutar wrote:
Comedy Goldsmith, I have to say your dogged fortitude in this matter is truly astonishing.

So tell me, are you Woodward or Bernstein ?


I can give you a reasonably sensible response to that question, while also denying that I'm 'Deep Throat'.

Firstly, at the height of the Watergate scandal, President Nixon said this (right). The headquarters of the SCGB famously borrows the name of the President's residence.

Secondly, over 25 years ago, a senior and famous figure within the Ski Club of Great Britain said to me "You are a Jew. You will never change this club".

He was wrong on the first point, since I'm not a Jew, so I thought it was worthwhile continuing.

[We'll put the more disturbing implications of that outburst on one side]
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Shocked
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Comedy Goldsmith,

Did you really have a staright face when you typed these words :
"I'm only entering this discussion because you have a tendency to 'moralise on inconsequential and ridiculous matters, whipping them up into minor dramas' "

This seems to be your own raison d'etre - except of course that you make them into major dramas rather than minor ones. ! A case of the bronze age cracked pot calling the kettle black

And, just to remind everyone, Mr Goldsmith was forced out of the SCGB after years and years of his ridiculous sniping at virtually every aspect of our Club - including saying, eventually, that he wanted the Club wound up - presumably so he could have claimed his share of the assets if it had been.

Most of us want our Leaders to be able to help us to enjoy our holidays as much as they have done in the past. Unfortunately that seems to be something that may take several years to achieve, given the mechanics of the French legal system.
snow conditions
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@dsoutar, It sounds as if you do not know the half of it - MrG has been trying to destroy the SCGB for far longer than I have been on the internet which is over 12 years now ........
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Oh. And Mx David Goldsmith ( I do not understand from whence the "comedy" has come from ) also "announced" to the SCGB that he would be attending the AGM as an observer ! He was, I understand, politely told that he would not be attending the AGM in any capacity. Skullie
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Actually, come to think of it, I wonder whether the SCGB would publish an obituary in Ski & Board ?
David - you might want to submit your own wording ???? Skullie
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Scrumpy wrote:
Actually, come to think of it, I wonder whether the SCGB would publish an obituary in Ski & Board ?


Sorry not been following this thread closely, are you talking about an obituary for the Chat Forum?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
No, I just realised I had used a skull on my last observation re DG !
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Scrumpy wrote:

Most of us want our Leaders to be able to help us to enjoy our holidays as much as they have done in the past.


Most of who? Who is "us"? Most of the 10% to 15% of SCGB members who actually ski with 'Leaders'?

Is the SCGB going to be driven to dust simply because of the selfishness of a tiny minority of its membership, along with those actually on the gravy train?

This forum ... which describes itself as 'ski club 2.0' ... has proven ... over 10 years of existence ... that a viable model exists for a ski club which costs nothing to enjoy, and can be a companion 365 days per year. I'm developing a hub (a club with an 'h' instead of a 'cl') which costs nothing and delivers up to 10 news/info/entertainment links on skiing each day. Again, it's free.

The Ski Club of Cloud Cuckooland has very little time left now. It's best that it's wound up (this is not a wind-up), with the assets converted to something that will actually do something for British skiers. We know it makes sense.
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Comedy Goldsmith, .ahem...
Ski club 2.00 membership minimum £ 25.00 (annual sub) http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=489
Ski club GB minimum £24.00 (annual sub) http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/join/default.aspx#.VHH0X759ndk
With both 'clubs' the forum is free to participate, however, see post below!


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 23-11-14 18:33; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
boredsurfin, .ahem....

boredsurfin wrote:
Comedy Goldsmith, .ahem...
Ski club 2.00 membership minimum £ 25.00 (annual sub) http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=489
Ski club GB minimum £24.00 (annual sub) http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/join/default.aspx#.VHH0X759ndk
With both 'clubs' the forum is free to participate, however, anything else requires a fee, as above.


Definitely not true as regards snowHeads! - if you don't pay any money to snowHeads you are still a member (anyone who registers becomes one), and in addition to being able to post on the forum you can also attend snowHead events like skitests, social meetups like BBQs and of course Bashes, just like those who pay an annual contribution (or fee as you call it)! snowHead The difference is that if you pay the voluntary "fee" then you qualify for a discount on the cost of the Bash (and some other discounts), which seems fair enough. Madeye-Smiley
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Alastair Pink, ahem, yep I stand corrected have edited. Thank you.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@boredsurfin, Actually @Alastair Pink, is correct. It is up to you whether to join SH or just post and go to any events you want to. That was the whole idea when SH's began. I am very pleased that admin has held to that basic principal. The discussions that go on here are sometimes very good.

On the other hand with the SCGB membership, the £24 is only for new members that are beginners, not everyone. The rest pay £69 I think. Plus everything except the forum must be paid for on top of the membership fee. BUt yes the SCGB does give you access to some quite good discounts although I do not know how the SH's discounts compare. Never used ether clubs discounts.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@On the rocks, sorry about that. I did miss read what you had written. My mistake, I apologise. I am pleased you say they taught you how to use your transceivers properly, but then if it was a course run by professionals and not SCGB Leaders I would expect it to give you proper training.

However I can assure you that even very recently there were 'Introduction to off piste' days, although I understand they use different wording not that it really matters. I can also say for a fact having both skied with some leaders and met them off piste that they have up to last season in some places still gone off piste without the full safety gear. Unless it has changed this year, it is still not SCGB policy that all members of off piste leader's groups are all correctly equipped. That it a major safety issue!

I am really pleased to see that there are no other points which people say I have posted incorrectly. I have tried very hard to be factually correct. We are all entitled to our own interpretation of these facts. That is what a debate is all about. I look forward to hearing what happens in the court in a few weeks regarding the SCGB and Leader's programme in France.
snow report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.

Ski Club of Great Britain, Electoral Reform Ballot Services and 'SurveyMonkey'

Preface: I have not attended the last three AGMs of the SCGB, most recently (2013, 2014) for a reason beyond my control: the reason being 'expulsion from the Club'.

One surprising fact that emerged from the 2013 SCGB annual report and AGM was that ERBS had been asked to discontinue their independent scrutiny of the Club's votes and elections. ERBS began providing these services in 1995 and continued doing so for 18 years - i.e. until 2012. Why have they been dropped?

One SCGB member - richjp - who attended the 2013 AGM, commented as follows ...
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=94856&start=2240#2395898

"I was there last night. There were three candidates for three vacancies so the chairman explained that the council had decided that the ERS was unnecessary on this occasion thus saving £2.5K and he hoped that the members would understand that."

I wonder if that explanation from the Chairman was minuted? The minutes of the 2013 AGM do not appear to be online for some reason (the 2012 minutes are readily accessible).

This year's 2014 AGM saw three candidates - Bob West, David Wilkey, Chris Radford - compete for the two Council positions available. But, again, Electoral Reform Ballot Services were not engaged by the SCGB. What was the reason this time?

The back page of the annual report - screen-grabbed right - indicates that this year's online votes were collected by 'SurveyMonkey'

Does anyone here know anything about SurveyMonkey and their credentials for ballot counting for a national members' organisation?
ski holidays
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Comedy Goldsmith, despite their name they're a well regarded company with a "cloud" platform for the distribution and dissemination of surveys. They have no 'credentials' themselves apart from being the platform on which the surveys are created and then statistics gathered for those who create the survey. So, not independent, but at the same time not that malleable AIUI. I know this since the company I work for are quite fond of using their services.

Nothing to see here if you ask me, but YouGov it ain't...
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
SurveyMonkey.com


Not surprisingly, the URL for the SurveyMonkey 'online vote' for the SCGB ...

www.surveymonkey.com/s/skiclubagm2014

... now gives the message ...

Quote:
Online proxy voting has now closed. If you would like to vote in person, you can do so by attending the Ski Club AGM on 20 November 2014 at 7pm, at 57-63 Church Road, London SW19 5SB


A brief study of the SurveyMonkey site ...

https://www.surveymonkey.com/pricing/?ut_source=header

... doesn't immediately suggest that they offer anything comparable to the ERBS, who cross-check ballots against a secure membership list and scrutinise the paper votes at the AGM itself on the night. SurveyMonkey appears to be a kind of automated opinon research or market research service - purely online.

Was anyone at the AGM, and can they comment on how this vote was conducted?
snow report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
nailzstomp wrote:
@Comedy Goldsmith, despite their name they're a well regarded company with a "cloud" platform for the distribution and dissemination of surveys. They have no 'credentials' themselves apart from being the platform on which the surveys are created and then statistics gathered for those who create the survey. So, not independent, but at the same time not that malleable AIUI. I know this since the company I work for are quite fond of using their services.

Nothing to see here if you ask me, but YouGov it ain't...


I understand what you're saying, but how would a service like this work in terms of verifying an individual SCGB member's vote - in terms of checking their identity etc.?
snow conditions
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
That is at the behest of those who create the survey, i.e. SCGB - they'd need to put in a control question for verifying membership/identity. It wouldn't fall under Surveymonkey's watch to do the verification, having seen their platform for myself. I agree with you that I certainly wouldn't compare it to the Electoral Reform Ballot Service, which probably costs an order of magnitude more mind you.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
can they comment on how this vote was conducted?


In the traditional way. Members from each of the alpine disciplines recognized by SCGB - Skiing (traditional, Ultra traditional, nouveau, and Rangoon styles), Luge, Servant sledging, Larks and Sedan-chair freeride - are invited to write names onto a snowball, strip naked (save for ceremonial mask and bobblehat) and toss them into the Goblet of Fire.
First round of debauchery.
Lunch
One name from each discipline is magically ejected, flaming, from the Goblet and caught, Thai style, by the au-pair of the Grand Wizard and director General of the club, and the names entered into the "scroll of righteousnessness"
Second round of debauchery
Each name is called and the member asked to take 'the position' on the grand dais and ritualistically humiliate a pheasant for 10 minutes, accruing 'cheers' or 'jeers' from the assembled membership.
Tea and scones
Final round of debauchery.
He with most Cheers is voted onto the council, blindfolded and the role of 'The Rear Admiral' thrust upon him, The SCGB Anthem 'What-Ho Charlie' is sung in full voice and the role carefully removed, rebuttered, and returned to it's ossory.
The vote is concluded and the chosen candidate remains blindfolded and widely oblivious of the world around him until the next AGM.
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
[quote="Comedy Goldsmith"]
Scrumpy wrote:

[re SCGB] It's best that it's wound up (this is not a wind-up), with the assets converted to something that will actually do something for British skiers. We know it makes sense.


Ah - now that you're not a member you want the assets proceeds to be ploughed back into skiing and not returned to members ? Amazing to see that your views do occasionally change !
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
And, the Ski Club has presumably not used the ERBS because
1 The costs are out of proportion
2 DG is not there to raise so much hell that they felt pressured to do so
3 They are quite happy to let the financial auditors, who attend the meeting anyway, scrutinise the process
4 No one but DG suspects skullduggery at every level.

I would suggest that this has nothing to do with Mx David Goldsmith, as per usual. So please keep out of it.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 24-11-14 14:14; edited 1 time in total
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
[quote="Scrumpy"]
Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:

[re SCGB] It's best that it's wound up (this is not a wind-up), with the assets converted to something that will actually do something for British skiers. We know it makes sense.


Ah - now that you're not a member you want the assets proceeds to be ploughed back into skiing and not returned to members ? Amazing to see that your views do occasionally change !


Eh? In what sense have my views changed? I've suggested that the SCGB should be wound up since June 2013. Nothing's changed.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Scrumpy wrote:
And, the Ski Club has presumably not used the ERBS because
1 The costs are out of proportion
2 DG is not there to raise so much hell that they felt pressured to do so
3 They are quite happy to let the financial auditors, who attend the meeting anyway, scrutinise the process
4 No one but DG suspects skullduggery at every level.


All the above is cock. The ERBS was brought in to scrutinise SCGB elections because - about 20-25 years ago - members (I was not involved at all) were increasingly concerned about the way AGM votes were being counted. So ... that was about 10 years before the SCGB decided it couldn't cope with social media.

The ERBS, once appointed, raised early concerns about the low participation in these votes and alerted the Club accordingly.

On your specific points ...

1. The price of maintaining membership control of a club is what the SCGB's own members defined as money well spent.
2. Yet again you are personalisingly this - completely inappropriately. It's obviously got nothing to do with me, personally. This is a club with a claimed 29,000 members (which seems to have fewer than 23,000 members). You are clearly some sort of 'insider'/'spokesperson' with some sort of official links, but your conduct is out-of-order. Why not identify yourself instead of reinforcing the impression that the SCGB deploys internet trolls on an official or quasi-official level?
3. Who is "they"? Are you saying that the SCGB's auditors are now formally scrutinising its elections ... in association with 'SurveyMonkey'?
4. You must be kidding. You are kidding ......... aren't you? I'm not saying there's "skullduggery at every level". Any organisation has good people, who work hard and do their best. That's half the tragedy of a situation like this.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 24-11-14 14:21; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Richard_Sideways, Laughing

The perfect antidote to the (mainly) bollux that is posted in this thread
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
[quote="Comedy Goldsmith" you are clearly some sort of 'insider'/'spokesperson' with some sort of official links, but your conduct is out-of-order. Why not identify yourself instead of reinforcing the impression that the SCGB deploys internet trolls on an official or quasi-official level?"

To clarify, I am a SCGB member who enjoys using the leading and holiday services. I have attended several AGMs over the years, but by no means all. I have never held any office or other post in the Club, I am not an employee nor a Leader.

In common with most Members of the Club, I cannot understand your unhealthy obsession with SCGB , especially now that the Club has made it c
lear that you are not welcome as a member.

And, as previously stated, I use a name that many people know me by - indeed I shall be skiing for a week this coming season with some people who will not know me by any other name than Scrumpy ! Cool
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Scrumpy wrote:
[quote="Comedy Goldsmith" you are clearly some sort of 'insider'/'spokesperson' with some sort of official links, but your conduct is out-of-order. Why not identify yourself instead of reinforcing the impression that the SCGB deploys internet trolls on an official or quasi-official level?"

To clarify, I am a SCGB member who enjoys using the leading and holiday services. I have attended several AGMs over the years, but by no means all. I have never held any office or other post in the Club, I am not an employee nor a Leader.

In common with most Members of the Club, I cannot understand your unhealthy obsession with SCGB , especially now that the Club has made it c
lear that you are not welcome as a member.

And, as previously stated, I use a name that many people know me by - indeed I shall be skiing for a week this coming season with some people who will not know me by any other name than Scrumpy ! Cool



That's all quite marvellous, Scrumpy.

Now, if you'd lay off with the personal crap and smears ["unhealthy obsession" - WTF?] and just deal with the facts and truth, we may make some progress.

The Club has not "made it clear that you are not welcome as a member". I did circulate the official letter last year - did you not see it? The SCGB Council's allegation was simply that I had "libelled" the organisation, which is strongly refuted. A number of members of the Council (not specified, perhaps not the specified two-thirds of the committee) made a decision, without inviting me to attend the meeting at all to make my case in person (which is also required, according to the Club's own rules).

You may be aware of the concept of 'natural justice' or 'British justice'. And decent good old-fashioned British fair play. And 'playing by the rules'. It's important to apply these things, even at this very late juncture.
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Comedy Goldsmith, Your skin is so thick that even now you do not accept that everyone, or certainly everyone I have ever spoken to or seen comment on forums, was whole heartedly glad to see the back of you and no-one wants to see you back. At the AGM 2013 hands were shaken and several glasses were raised to those who had finally grasped the bull by the horns and got rid of you when other, weaker committees that you had intimidated had failed.

YOU ARE NOT WANTED. YOU HAVE NO RELEVANCE . END OF .
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