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Piste or "Normal" Ski for Touring

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
In my experience touring skis are basically pants on a hard icy piste. This is due to their lightweight construction and that they are designed more for softer offpiste (not just powder).

However, some skis that were not initially designed for touring are often used for this purpose e.g.

Atomic Blackeye TI
Fischer Watea 78 or 84
Dynastar Legend 85

Are there any other 75 to 85 mm skis that perform sufficiently on a hard piste but would work well as a touring ski (weight not too high and ample float in shallow powder)?
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DB, Heard lots of good things about Black Diamond tele skis, particularly the Carbon Megawatt, very light and really good torsion control. but a lot wider than what you want.

I've tele'd on the legends and while they were nice they never felt particularly 'alive' more a sort of dull competence . . . could be they just need more forward pressure than I could give.
http://www.wildsnow.com/7923/black-diamond-carbon-megawatt-ski-review/

The Black Diamond Warrant may suit more.
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Voelkl are the only ski company that dodge this truth
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Movement Thunder @ 87 wide (or maybe its 89) are great in icy conditions and as a tourer. Probably my most frequnetly used ski this and last season. Sadly discontinued, not sure what the replacment model(s) were like
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http://mobile.voelkl.com/index.php?id=2310&type=16347
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My daughter uses dynastar legends which does for anywhere. I use some movement red apples 74, they are good on the up not bad on icy pistes but not great in the soft or lumpy stuff. I am switching to some dynastar alti trail powders this year. I suspect the required combination of lightness, lift, stiffness and turning is akin the the holy grail.,
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had some Blizzard Titan 9s a few years ago which would fit this bill perfectly. not sure what the modern equivalent is really - most skis in this segment have rocker and/or shorter turn radius. they are still in my attic so maybe I ought to stick some bindings on them. fun skis...
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
normal all mountain skis 85-90 underfoot are great for touring,eg Scott Missions etc. The ultralight touring skis arn't so great on the downhill
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Legend 85s are great skis, I can imagine they'd work very well for touring. Float much better than they should for their size.
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I used to have a pair of Scott Aztec Pros that were more than capable on hard piste and fairly light. The new Flyair is based on it, I believe. Had a waggle with a pair of BD Draft touring skis and they are seriously light, even for a carbon ski.
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More to add to the list ...

Stöckli Stormrider Pit Pro (Pricy)

Head i Peak 74, 78 or 84 PR Pro (a bit on the heavy side)

Head Rev 85
http://skicanadamag.com/2012/10/01/gear/expert-all-mountain-test-2013
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Have you looked at the Blizzard Kabookies? Very light, very good on piste apparently. Blizzard are pushing them as a touring type ski.
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DB wrote:
in my experience touring skis are basically pants on a hard icy piste. This is due to their lightweight construction and that they are designed more for softer offpiste (not just powder).

... 75 to 85 mm skis that perform sufficiently on a hard piste but would work well as a touring ski (weight not too high and ample float in shallow powder)


DB, I skied over 15,000 feet vertical yesterday of mostly hard, icy pistes on 90 mm waisted, touring designed skis and Dynafit bindings. They'll be coming with me to Austria in less than a week for what I expect might turn out to be 6 days of more of the same.

But the experts have already eliminated those ... http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1889067
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You know it makes sense.
moffatross,

For good condition touring days (good coverage, powder etc) and long tours I have the Kästle TX 87's with dynafits. High speed ice performance isn't an issue here. For worse conditions I'm using an old (2006) pair of Snowwolfs which have only had a few weeks on them. Early in the touring season I skin up the backside of the mountain and drop down the other side into a ski resort and put in a couple of runs with firends. Blasting down the piste I soon find the top speed of the Snowwolfs and play catch-up with my friends on Alpine skis. I just thought maybe it would be better throwing an old pair of Freerides on old Alpine skis (picked up cheap in the local adds) and using them for such days.

Just missed out on buying a brand new pair of Head i Peak 90's for €220 Crying or Very sad

When the reviews say things like "very good on piste" they generally mean "very good on piste for a wide touring ski". I can't see 100mm wide light touring skis coming near 75mm wide Alpine ski performance on piste.
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I agree with you DB, it'd be bonkers to actually believe that a lightweight, wide ski could be anywhere near as secure as a heavyweight, narrow one when blatting around hardpack. Anyway, it sounds like we both enjoy the same mix of skiing too, not worrying about being the fastest pair of planks either. I don't have particularly fond memories of Fritschis now and reckon that Dynafits, with their metal to metal and low profile ski contact make for much better firm piste bindings than Fritschis with their bendy frames and towering stilts position. Binding inserts to share Dynafits across skis would be my choice.

As it goes, I've now got the whole stable of Scott 'air skis, because I just couldn't resist that pair of 175 cm XPlorairs for £160 in the link posted by Mike Pow in that other thread. Laughing I will get them down to SpyderJon in due course for Quiver Killering like my other 'airs. Cool
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Piste or "Normal" Ski for Touring? In spring when the snow is really hard backcountry, I like to use piste skis with my old touring bindings (Fritshi with stoppers and long crampons). First they are cheaper and lightweight skis are nor so resistant on ice. Ascending, as they are narrow, they are better in old and frozen tracks, and not heavier than "fats". Sideways with crampons you are also better with narrow skis. And I know big backcountry skiers who would never rely on "flimsy" lightweight touring skis.

If you have to choose one paire of ski for both piste and touring, the best compromise is medium width, around 75mm, and not too short, something like your height. Heavier your are, more rigid the ski.
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moffatross wrote:
I don't have particularly fond memories of Fritschis now and reckon that Dynafits, with their metal to metal and low profile ski contact make for much better firm piste bindings than Fritschis with their bendy frames and towering stilts position. Binding inserts to share Dynafits across skis would be my choice.


Yes one option is to go for a heavier ski and put binding inserts on them to take dynafits so that the overall weight increase isnt too great. Dynafits do ski better than old flexy Fritschis, my setup would probably work better if I put binding inserts on the Snowwolfs. The only concern is the release of the dynafit binding.
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I think the ramp angle on the old pair of fritschis I'm using (the all-white circa 2005 model) could have a lot to do with it.

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=85967&highlight=fritschi+ramp+angle

Quote:
There's something (either the ramp angle, or the extra stand height off the ski) that makes staying balanced on hard snow an issue with the Fritschi.


http://www.epicski.com/products/black-diamond-fritschi-diamir-freeride-plus-binding/reviews
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DB wrote:
The only concern is the release of the dynafit binding.


Why is this a concern? I think the dynafit system has had a good few years to show that it isn't a knee-exploding deathtrap.

DB wrote:
I think the ramp angle on the old pair of fritschis I'm using (the all-white circa 2005 model) could have a lot to do with it.


D'you think the ramp angle or stack height would be more of a problem than the general lack of stiffness in a Fritschi compared to an alpine or tech binding? I'd be slightly skeptical about that.
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Serriadh wrote:
DB wrote:
The only concern is the release of the dynafit binding.


Why is this a concern? I think the dynafit system has had a good few years to show that it isn't a knee-exploding deathtrap.


I like messing around in the bumps, not sure how tech bindings will cope with that as they don't have as many angles of release.


Serriadh wrote:

DB wrote:
I think the ramp angle on the old pair of fritschis I'm using (the all-white circa 2005 model) could have a lot to do with it.


D'you think the ramp angle or stack height would be more of a problem than the general lack of stiffness in a Fritschi compared to an alpine or tech binding? I'd be slightly skeptical about that.


Could be slop but although they are old, the Fritschis have very little use as they were a backup set. (My older well worn fritschis are much more sloppy). Since going for tech fittings on a wider pair of touring skis last year I've felt a lot less comfortable skiing fritschis again. Always thought hígher stack height was better for hard pistes anyway (provided there's very little lateral flex). I suspect it is more the difference in ramp angle, getting used to a higher ramp angle and then going back to fritschis has given me a backseat position on the fritschis.
Binding inserts / quiver killers could be the solution but often I take two pairs of touring skis in the car and decide which pairs I will use dependant on the conditions when I get there. Expecting everyone to wait while I switch over bindings before a tour would be too much. Will probably just bite the bullet and get another set of Dynafit Radical ST's. circa €400 list price (ouch) but have some gift vouchers and should get a bit of discount.
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DB, Love the Kastle!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
DB wrote:
Serriadh wrote:
Why is this a concern? I think the dynafit system has had a good few years to show that it isn't a knee-exploding deathtrap.


I like messing around in the bumps, not sure how tech bindings will cope with that as they don't have as many angles of release.


I don't actually have access to a pair of Fritschis to inspect, but to my knowledge they have a fairly conventional horizontal toe release and vertical heel release. That's as many angles of release as a set of dynafits, no?

Skiing icy bumps seems to be a good way to tune your release value settings on dynafits. If they're too low, you'll definitely pop out if your technique isn't perfect!
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Serriadh wrote:
I don't actually have access to a pair of Fritschis to inspect, but to my knowledge they have a fairly conventional horizontal toe release and vertical heel release. That's as many angles of release as a set of dynafits, no?


As it 'appens, I kept the old fritschis and have just compared the Fritchi's, dynafits and an Alpine binding, looks like your are right. I've always been told (from shops) that the Fritchi releases like an alpine binding and the Dynafit has an inferior release. Is this not so?


Serriadh wrote:
Skiing icy bumps seems to be a good way to tune your release value settings on dynafits. If they're too low, you'll definitely pop out if your technique isn't perfect!


Things like this cause slight concern .....


http://youtube.com/v/K6cETQwh6V8
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^ if that's a concern you can just lock them out - that takes those release springs further away from the boot, locking them against the ski so they can't be "sprung" per design. So lock toes into touring mode. Fair enough if you do wipeout you could then do some damage to yourself, but sometimes it's better to know you ain't gonna bounce out of them
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DB wrote:
I've always been told (from shops) that the Fritchi releases like an alpine binding and the Dynafit has an inferior release. Is this not so?


It does indeed release like a standard alpine binding in as much as it has verical at the heel and horizontal at the toe (though some alpine bindings support a sort of twisting release at the toe in addition to the normal modes). I don't think it is reasonable to say that dynafits have inferior release to rail-type AT bindings, but neither are likely to be as elastic or reliable as an alpine binding with an appropriate boot in it.

They may have inferior retention under certain circumstances. I've vertically pre-released at the heel going over a short, steep ridge on a glacier at modest speed; the ski flexed enough that I just popped straight out upwards. That happened once over a 4-day period that involved quite a few runs on poorly covered glaciers so I'm inclined to chalk it up to user error.

Dynafits do have inferior brakes, that's for sure.

DB wrote:
Things like this cause slight concern .....


Once I'd fiddled with the release values a bit, I stopped popping out on bumps and went on to have a relatively painless week... the pre-releasing was simply the heel unit working as intended at the given settings. I don't imagine that I'd pre-release from the toe in the way shown in that video without a) hitting something or b) screwing up a landing. I do have the newer Radical toe unit with little fixtures which might reduce that kind of pre-release, mind you.

Anyway, you've already made your choice; give em a blast and report back Very Happy
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DB, Theoretically that's me settled, NTN for my toes and Dynafit for my heels. Only 1mm difference in ramp angle. What I'd like to know about is the lateral release of the Dynafit heels. That should give me the freedom to alpine, tele or tour at will. (ps. new NTN binders are half the weight of the originals)

All the info I've gleaned from t'interweb is that Dynafit heels have a soft easy lateral release but are DIN accurate vertical release. With the adjustable lateral release of the NTN binding (level of 'active' tele response) this could make a safe combination.

No, not taking the widdle, I still want the flexibility to make a choice based on conditions/fatigue/etc. and only have one pair of good boots rather than the three I've got rolling eyes
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Masque wrote:
DB, Theoretically that's me settled, NTN for my toes and Dynafit for my heels.:


http://www.wasatchski.com/tts.htm

Do you want to tell em they've got it the wrong way round? Very Happy
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Masque, bit of a needless compromise that, no? If you had a full ntn and a full dyna setup you could use single pair of boots for both, and given you'd need to buy both to set up your hybrid, why not QK skis for both full rigs (I've done this on a couple of pairs of skis - I do still use separate boots but you can double up). Front toe holes match perfectly for both bindings (freeride ntn and plum guides do anyway - plum pattern same as dyna)
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barry, I'm trying to reduce total kit load to 2 pairs of skis; 1x piste rocket and 1x powder monkey compromise (Oh and Teleboard). One set of mixed bindings and quiver killers for everything . . . actually the NTN mount kits make it a matter of a couple of minutes for that part. My Crispi NTN boots are AT and Dynafit compatible and will even fit in an alpine snowboard. Ramp angle's a bit off but nothing that can't be compensated for. Though if I don't get stupid and join a BASI Gap course I'll be on 2M+ wooden skis and wearing me grandad's wooly longjons for the season.

Serriadh, intewesting, vewy intewesting wink
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That TTS has been on the go for a while, looks like they're finally getting somewhere but I ain't convinced - still a bit too homemade looking

Masque, take it you've checked this out:


http://youtube.com/v/m-1H3BC0rK4

That dudes a shop owner in US - you can get him over on telemarktips forum
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barry, Yeah, that's a couple of seasons old and he's not worked much further with that. In the meantime both NTN and Dynafit have been extensively revising/developing their kit. What I'd like to get my grubby fingers on is the testing figures so that I can access some accurate data to judge the safety issues. Particularly if I want to turn up at a BASI course with it Twisted Evil . . . the most fun to be had in the World is to fook w'minds as long as you don't hurt them.

Though that first link of Serriadh's may have some spare heel pieces available. Toofy Grin

I think we live in interesting times and freeing the mind is part of freeing the heel. I love tele, it keeps the girlies interested till they see I'm an ugly old scrote but it also challenges me at a pace that keeps others on the mountain at less risk of ballistic boogery . . . though I've cracked the tele carve which somewhat negates that and I've nailed the jump turn to switch . . . the landing is another matter Evil or Very Mad Though I've only recently understood that switch tele is with an alpine lead leg Shocked it's reversed. Can't wait to go hurt myself Toofy Grin
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Fair dinkum, I'm giving the new ntn freedom a season or two before getting it, I'm ok with the freeride for the kind of touring I normally do (and I've got plum guides for anything bigger). I was pretty unimpressed that the mounting pattern is different than the freeride though - that could still put me off. Ntn has though pretty much reborn telemark

Let us know how you get on with the "frankentele" wink
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Serriadh wrote:
Anyway, you've already made your choice; give em a blast and report back Very Happy


Did a short tour today and then skied the resort for half a day.
The dynafits were much more stable and precise than the fritschis. I also felt much better centered on the skis. The high stack height, lower ramp angle and flex made the Fritschis a lot more of a challenge on icy pistes.
With dynafits I could push the skis in all terrain without the vague flexy feeling. Even though conditions weren't good towards the end of the day (mashed potato mounds on hard icy pistes & crud to the sides up top, with rained on snow on the lower slopes) the dynafits performed much better on all terrain.

Can't say much about the dynafit release as I only came out of the bindings on the ascent when I had forgotten to pull up the dynafit levers. Basically I walked on and left the skis behind. rolling eyes

All in all dam expensive but very pleased with the results especially as I have saved around 500g per foot toboot.
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DB wrote:
The dynafits were much more stable and precise than the fritschis. I also felt much better centered on the skis. The high stack height, lower ramp angle and flex made the Fritschis a lot more of a challenge on icy pistes.


DB, I've just returned from another week in Austria. One quick skin all week, but other than that, about 150,000 feet lift-served vertical for mostly piste skiing with lots of hardpack and bumps and sometimes hardpacked bumps Little Angel Again, no regrets and almost no compromise versus Alpine bindings except that their metal-to-metal contact means there's no vibration insulation/isolation so my feet occasionally take a bit of a pounding on textured hardpack. Frozen, morning corduroy is always the very, very worst for it.

DB wrote:
I only came out of the bindings on the ascent when I had forgotten to pull up the dynafit levers. Basically I walked on and left the skis behind. rolling eyes

Yep, I reckon that this is the Dynafit equivalent of being an SPD pedal newbie and falling over sideways with your bike the very first time you stop.

One quick tip, if you haven't discovered it yourself yet is that when you're carrying skis over your shoulder, do it with their pointy ends upwards and backwards then just cup the blunt ends in one hand. I've only recently discovered that this is the only way that skis fitted with Dynafit brakes can be shouldered without ending up behaving like a pair of scissors every minute or so.
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