 Poster: A snowHead
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| tomb wrote: |
fatbob, i think the product in question there is aimed at kids and school groups.... looks like a good idea IMO
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If (sorry make that when) my kids go offpiste they have a beacon under their jacket, and even the 8 year old has practised and got reasonably good with searches with the one she uses. Again the kids/school group idea has the potentially fatal flaw of needing someone equipped with a receiver to not be buried.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| tomb wrote: |
And as it happens i think those beacons are an ideal solution for a school group..... 1 or 2 teachers with avi kits and the kids with the beacons.... what are the alternatives, equip a whole school group with full avi kits??? And then also ensure every one of those kids knows how to use the kits correctly?? I dont think so somehow. |
OK as we are talking hypothetical risks how do you ensure that the 1 or 2 teachers aren't under the avalanche with a few of the kids? Plain and simple that is the problem, you can't.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| MeMyselfandI, The equipment to detect the Recco reflectors is big, normally carried in helicopters, by the time the helicopter gets to a scene of an avalanche, you're looking for bodies not casualties. |
+1 with a rider...
If you are completely buried^ and you're still alive immediately after the slide* then the stats say something like 80% of those found alive are found within 15 minutes. Helicopters take, on average, 20 minutes to reach the scene.
Here's the BUT...
Should be buried and still alive at the time that a helicopter turns up you're much better off having Recco than a beacon as the Recco detector on the helicopter has a wide field of view (so can search large areas in one go) and is pinpoint accurate once it's found a signal.
So, if you're the lucky bug in the "tail" of the statistical distribution then you'll be glad you were wearing the Recco.
I can't remember the stats properly, but:
^ the chance of being completely buried is surprisingly low - around 10% (someone please correct me)
* but if you are completely buried then you have something like a 50% chance of dying immediately. Which reinforces that it's a very good idea to be not buried in the first place.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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tomb, If you flick through these statistics http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Accident-Statistics there appear to have been three on piste avalanche deaths in the 2003-2009 winters. I believe that a child was killed early last winter in Italy on piste with an instructor. That makes an average of 0.5 on piste avalanche deaths a year in Europe. Compare this against the 200 million skier days each year in Europe http://corporate.skistar.com/templates/NormalPage.aspx?id=179 and I could would call you a fool to spend as much as £10 protecting yourself against a 1 in 400E6 chance of being killed by avalanche each day you ski on piste.
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Its seems that people is able to understand/read correctly on here.... i'm not advocating taking a school group off piste for goodness sake!
rambotion, this is basically the answer I was looking for...... all I wanted to ascertain was the risk versus cost/practicality of such a system. And looking at those figures then its abundantly clear that its not a viable option.
This was all a hypothetical question regarding a genuine concern I had in light of recent piste avalanches!
Well done to all those who tried to ridicule me.... you all look like really big and smart people!
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tomb, no one was trying to ridicule you. Everyone was saying variants of the same thing. It was a valid question especially in the light of the ambiguous reporting of the Tignes incident so therefore worthwhile.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I understood that recco is mainly for resort skiing and is not very useful in backcountry.
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Pieps Freeride £99 from Snowsafe (Cheapest prices or any aby stuff in UK, and great service). Cheapo shovel and probe from ebay for £50. Done. The freeride may be single antenae but its simple to use and works very well if you practice, its far better than the patrollers and M1/2 that a lot carry and I'd argue at least as effective in use as the Mk 1 Tracker. Id rather my buddies in the group had that than nothing at all, nobody needs know you are carrying on the piste
Having been near 2 on piste slides I now carry all the time and was worried enough that I bought 2 freerides, and cheap shovels to loan to my mates. Since then others in our group have seen the light and bought there own, so in our party of 7 everyone has full kit even though we spend 70% of our time on piste.
I now own 7 Avy trancievers and have used a ton of them. I personally carry an S1+ (best by a long mile, so easy to use and fantastic for organising multiple searches as you can see up to 4 burials and their relative positions at all times. I actually rate the freeride. its small, light, affordable and easy to use. Its only downside is range but normally with my S1 or S1+ I can be telling the freeride owners to so search 40 m over there as thats were another beacon is. Mammuts are great but too complicated unless in easy mode or you practice regularly, The DTS's arent too bad
I've been doing a few tests now where I buried a load of old Pieps analog units and gave a broadcasting transciever to non skiing folks and said "this detects beacons, go find them". Results have been interesting
Freeride, low success, the 3 buttons presses to activate are not intuitive. Once they worked that out the search always worked for the first burial
DTS Tracker 1, 100% sucess after a pause while they figure out how to make it search
Pulse in advanced; forget it 0%
Pulse in simple; about 50% success, not logical controls, only first burial
S1; 100% on all burials
S1+ 100% n all burials
The Ortovox's work well, the opening of the clamshell to use it seems natural to most (suspect thats mobile phone influence), the screen is very logical. It prompts you to mark the victim to move to second one, but even if they didnt mark it the screen makes it obvious where to go to find further burials
The Pulse is a great unit but not logical and needs training before use
The Tracker just needs a sticker saying "Pull to search" to make it far easier to use
The Freeride suffers from needing 3 button poresses, this is written on side but not obvious. Once you know this its pretty easy for folks to use. It cant mark the first vistim so you must, get nearer to victim 2 than victim 1 for it to lock on
To the original poster, go buy a freeride, or for better safety buy 2 and loan one to your mate. if you have 2 you can also prectice searching which the most important bit)
The ortovox 16 litre rucksack is ideal, you can carry your shovel, probe, sandwiches and radio in it but its so small you dont need to take it off on the lifts and you will forget your wearing it
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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madmole, thanks, that's really useful.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| madmole wrote: |
| ...the opening of the clamshell to use it seems natural to most (suspect thats mobile phone influence)... |
I reckon it's Star Trek, myself 
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| FreeBeer wrote: |
| It has always struck me as odd that people never mention the fact that the investment made in the latest avalanche transceiver technology is entirely altruistic. As far as I know, having the latest triple axis antenna on you makes it no easier for you to be found than having a 10 year old single axis transceiver strapped around your neck (available at considerable lower cost). |
There is a lot of truth in that however, although having the latest technology will not help someone find you, it will almost certainly help you find someone else.
I have been skiing off piste for over thirty years and have never been avalanched or had to search for anybody. I hope I am not tempting fate by sayng that! Most recreational skiers will ski all their lives and never be involved in a real search. If you do ever have to conduct a search then I feel it is imperative that the technology is the easiest to use. You will only have one chance to get it right.
The technology keeps improving and newer transceivers are much easier to use for searching.
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You know it makes sense.
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| tomb wrote: |
Its seems that people is able to understand/read correctly on here.... i'm not advocating taking a school group off piste for goodness sake!
rambotion, this is basically the answer I was looking for...... all I wanted to ascertain was the risk versus cost/practicality of such a system. And looking at those figures then its abundantly clear that its not a viable option.
This was all a hypothetical question regarding a genuine concern I had in light of recent piste avalanches!
Well done to all those who tried to ridicule me.... you all look like really big and smart people! |
No-one tried to ridicule you; loads of people made exactly the same point as rambotion a while back.
The problem with that Snow-Be thing is that it is marketed as a transciever-replacement. There was a massive internet shitstorm when it was first announced, the maker seemed to take feedback on board at first, I think it was then proposed as solely for training use... Now it would appear the lady's front bottom is again trying to market it as a safety device, profiteering from scare-mongering, and encouraging the sort of selfishness there really isn't any room for in the mountains.
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FAQ
