 Poster: A snowHead
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Monium, good idea, we did this with Inside Out once. Also, livetoski came along with a variety of transceivers to try. I certainly aim to buy the kit from him if/when I do fork out.
Edited to correct user name.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 12-12-12 19:48; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But as (and probably more) important is an understanding of the conditions in relationship to avalanche risk. Something like HAT.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Claude B. I think an evening of this on a bash for everyone who is interested would be a great idea.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| red 27 wrote: |
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| fallacious argument |
I had one of them with Mrs Red 27 last night. I lost  |
Isn't that a fellatious argument? A different thing entirely.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Monium wrote: |
| Pedantica wrote: |
| So - as I'm getting close to purchasing my own equipment - is there somewhere in London I can go for professional training on how to use it? (Apologies if the answer to that is already somewhere in the thread.) |
Why don't we get something set up at Hemel in the new year? There must be a time when we can use the training slope there, to provide a realistic environment, and there must be suitably qualified instructors who can teach a suitable few hours on this? Given the events of the last couple of weeks, we are thinking about getting the gear, but obviously having a transceiver and being able to actually help each other is another thing. |
After the events of last week I think a lot of us would be up for this. I'd certainly be one of them. I'm sure we could find one or two snowHeads with the gear and experience to go through the basics. Any volunteers?
Before anyone geta all aerated about this idea I'm not suggesting that this would be the only training, more of an "introduction to" to understand the considerations and get a feel for the equipment.
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Pedantica, absolutely a competent leader will make better decisions than one with no experience who has been elevated to their position due to some other characteristic. Choosing to only go off-piste with a qualified guide would be a prudent approach. The problems arise when groups end up promoting someone who isn't actually competent to a leader position and people automatically defer to that person. As a lot of peoples first 'proper' off-piste experience is generally with some kind of guide or instructor if they're instilled with a 'trust the leader' mentality implicitly chances are they'll carry it through to less organised forays or even worse be promoted or perceived to be the group leader due to their experience. That's what gives me hesitation at the "here's how to rescue someone, now follow me" approach advocated above.
Humans are also fallible so information sharing within the group even with a much more qualified leader prior to decision making is always going to be useful eventually.
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meh, You include an interesting phrase "I dunno his advice is rather out of date TBH. "
The advice I gave is limited to Transceivers. Transceivers are not out of date.
The advice I'm giving on first aid is current and prioritised highly - in particular the A of ABC.
Now: "I dunno his advice is rather out of date TBH. " What are we readers to make of this?
How can people take a comment like that seriously?
The sentence starts "I dunno ..."
So the writer isn't claiming any knowledge?
Then " ... his advice is rather out of date ... "
But the advice then 'updated' is on general mountain leadership. My advice wasn't on that topic!
"TBH" This is short for "To Be Honest"
So this time the writer is being honest?
Your information on leadership is of high quality, and of interest- but it's in addition to (not counter to) my contribution and quite beside the point of encouraging non-professionals, non-leaders to carry transceiver, probe and shovel and train regularly in their use. This is the problem people have that many skiers who spend 95% of their time on the piste do go offpiste, but under-prepare and under-equip. Plus they think they need professional training before getting involved at all in learning.
Now we come to the divergence.
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IMO teaching people the skills of avalanche rescue and instilling a strong trust in leadership for decision making is setting people up to make poor choices in the future even if the decision making of the leader is excellent.
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This is something from an undergraduate philosophy debate on rationalism? Someone been on a business school course or something? That sort of thing is what gets discussed at leadership courses.
All I'm suggesting people do is get a transceiver, probe and shovel, and make sure they train in its proper use as a prerequisite preparation before getting adventurous. The rest is beyond the scope of the point I'm making.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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They do as Free Respect Avalanche awareness talk in L2A. an evening talk with demos, etc the next day. They used to do it in English too (there's an English pisteur there), I went about 4 years ago. Well worth it if anyone is there.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Monium wrote: |
Why don't we get something set up at Hemel in the new year? There must be a time when we can use the training slope there, to provide a realistic environment, and there must be suitably qualified instructors who can teach a suitable few hours on this? Given the events of the last couple of weeks, we are thinking about getting the gear, but obviously having a transceiver and being able to actually help each other is another thing. |
Not sure there is any advantage in doing it on an indoor ski slope and not much about it that could be realistic. The space is very restricted and I very much doubt that you would be allowed to dig and bury transceivers. When we have done it in the past in a park, people generally hide them under fallen leaves.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Here's my simple take on the "where to carry avalanche kit" debate:
If you are going off-piste, or think there is a chance that you might go off-piste, you have a personal and moral responsibility to carry the appropriate equipment. If you are certain that you will only ski on secured pistes, where every effort has been taken to mitigate risks to the point that they are negligible, then you don't. However, you may choose to do so for a variety of reasons, ranging from altruism to just liking having the gear.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| snowball wrote: |
Not sure there is any advantage in doing it on an indoor ski slope and not much about it that could be realistic. The space is very restricted and I very much doubt that you would be allowed to dig and bury transceivers. When we have done it in the past in a park, people generally hide them under fallen leaves. |
There are always a hundred reasons why we can't do something. I am fairly sure that if an instructor that the staff at Hemel knew guaranteed to fill in any holes and smooth them over after the session, and chose a time that was very quiet (weekday mornings usually) they would be fine with it. You've only got to hide them under an inch of snow and they are invisible.
Obviously it doesn't replicate the actual digging a hole through 4 feet of snow, but it would mean that everyone could be in their ski gear and make it as realistic as possible - walking around a park with a transceiver is better than nothing, but running around on flat ground in trainers isn't how it is going to go in real life.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SkiPresto, I agree wholeheartedly with your pre-requisite but all you needed to do was write that sentence once and you'd have a chorus of agreement. All the additional text seems to have lead to people forming a poor opinion of you and clouded a very simple and important point that you were trying to get across.
Thanks for the style critique though even if your reading of it was rather divorced from the context. In return can I suggest that perhaps you don't react to peoples criticism like a petulant teenager offering weird style critiques and accusing people of having been to business school (the scandal!).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fixx wrote: |
geeo, I think that’s a little harsh.
I’ve been following this thread with interest (especially as elsewhere on the site I’ve posted about wanting to start off-piste) and as a whole I’ve found the info about training very useful.
I’m not about to take a print out of advice above to the local park and have a go myself, but the depth of advice above has reinforced in my mind how seriously training should be taken.
So I’ve had a look this morning for actual training courses, sent a few emails, bookmarked a few websites etc.
I think a wonderful strength of this forum is the amount of different people with different experiences who are willing to share that experience and knowledge, and help out those a little newer.
And I would think it’s a positive that if as a result of this tragic accident discussions like this do happen, and knowledge is shared about the need for frequent training, testing of skills, practice etc with transceivers and other equipment – it’s certainly been very educational for me.
So thank you everyone from me for your contributions! |
This whole comment is very sensible and describes snowheads at its best. Top job!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Monium, Good puns rarely stand up to scrutiny - mine never do 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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meh, Well it was your content - and manipulation of scope and counterpoint - not the style I was making comment on.
If I was to start on style, I would be here all night, especially as there is now the tiniest hint of condescension in your latest posting, not to mention the exclusive us/ you tone.
The inevitable repetition I do regret. If I had the option of deleting the lot, I'd take it.
Seriously, where did you ("meh") get these leadership ideas? Need we be worried, or are these ideas peculiar to a particular organisation or grouping?
I'm not going to follow up comments of a personal nature (essential as these seem to be to several of the contributors).
Similarly, comments relating to peoples' common opinion of this writer will be ignored.
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| maggi wrote: |
Me too! I'd really like to be gnarly but the thought of pushing a probe down in the snow and it coming up with an eyeball on the end really puts me off  . |
When we came to the subject of probing on the very first avalanche training day I went on, I remember asking the instructor about the danger of poking the victim in the eye. The instructor replied that the victim would probably be very grateful.
It is probably the only situation I can think of where a poke in the eye would be very welcome.
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I think my obligations are done here, now the topic has strayed on to the very important one of rucsac webbing.
Many thanks to all those who wrote in support of the material I contributed. To the others well your forum post count will have risen.
It's good to see some move on SH to do something about making the use of transceiver search more mainstream.
I hope you all go on to achieve great things.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pedantica, it is indeed a shame. I'm sure he has more to contribute if he wants to stay around. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There's some wonderfully florid prose on this thread - a very high standard of verbiage indeed. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Pedantica, I found his contributions helpful too.
I feel slightly embarrassed by the rarity with which I venture off piste in relation to the frequency with which I wear my transceiver 
I also feel a posy tw@t if I carry my shovel and probe - so usually don't unless I am "officially" off piste (ie "properly" off piste with a guide).
I don't believe I can be alone in my reluctance to look like a gnarly dude when I clearly don't feel like one.
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SkiPresto, I look forward to your odd trolling on the next thread.
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You know it makes sense.
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Freddie Paellahead,
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I feel slightly embarrassed by the rarity with which I venture off piste in relation to the frequency with which I wear my transceiver
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Don't be, wearing one just means that you can go off whenever you want to, frequently or not, whether for your own enjoyment or indeed to help others. (Lots of people in Tignes, including some snowHeads, skiied over from the piste to try and find the poor girl who died.)
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I also feel a posy tw@t if I carry my shovel and probe
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Can anyone see them when they're tucked away in your rucksack?
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I don't believe I can be alone in my reluctance to look like a gnarly dude when I clearly don't feel like one.
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You're not alone! But, having skied off-piste with you, I know that you could easily have skied the pitch where girl died, probably even I could have done so. I don't think it was any steeper than the first pitch Philippe sent us down on the easy off-piste day at the EoSB 2010, to see whether we were - so to speak - men or mice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Monium wrote: |
There are always a hundred reasons why we can't do something. I am fairly sure that if an instructor that the staff at Hemel knew guaranteed to fill in any holes and smooth them over after the session, and chose a time that was very quiet (weekday mornings usually) they would be fine with it. You've only got to hide them under an inch of snow and they are invisible.
Obviously it doesn't replicate the actual digging a hole through 4 feet of snow, but it would mean that everyone could be in their ski gear and make it as realistic as possible - walking around a park with a transceiver is better than nothing, but running around on flat ground in trainers isn't how it is going to go in real life. |
I was arguing that doing it in a park was better - partly because there is lots of space (the very gentle slope of the trainer slope is similar to parts of the slope where I last practised with snowheads which was Primrose Hill. I took my ski-boots but I admit I don't think I put them on).
You need to be able to keep reburying the transceivers after each attempt, as well as digging to find the transcievers and I'm not sure how deep the glycol pipes are. I agree it could work.
It might be worth contacting Peter Gillespie to see if he might be willing. You'd really need the whole slope, though . If people are interested I could contact him.
I'm not sure if the metal walls etc might affect transceivers - I could take mine on Sunday if someone else does and we could find out.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 12-12-12 16:17; edited 4 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Freddie Paellahead, you can get some pretty small packs to put just the essentials and some snacks in. I've got a black Black Diamond Bandit pack, it's 11L and will fit avi kit, skins and has room for other stuff in it as well, spare layers, sarnies etc. Definitely doesn't scream "look at me I'm totally rad". Plenty of other similar bags around.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball,
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I'm not sure if the metal walls etc might affect transceivers
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My recollection of when we did a session with Inside Out was that there was indeed a degree of interference.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="Freddie Paellahead.
I also feel a posy tw@t if I carry my shovel and probe [/quote]
Now this is florid prose - normally the adjective could be safely omitted for Mr Paellahead
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I also feel a posy tw@t if I carry my shovel and probe
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I can relate to that. I wanted to get some practice with a sextant, doing some very coastal sailing in Scotland, but I hid it carefully away and only brought it out if nobody was looking - you look a complete idiot taking sights with a sextant within earshot of the sheep grazing on the side of the loch. One day, talking to a woman on the boat moored up next to us, I discovered that her OH had a guilty sextant secret too - I said I'd show him mine if he showed me his (both were plastic - a real high-end one would have been the pits in that situation) and we did some reductions together.
I couldn't remember a thing about using a sextent now though - that was years ago - all those sort of skills need constant practice and I'm sure transceivers are no exception. I have a friend with a place in Chamonix and have skied with her occasionally there. The first time she strapped on her transceiver I was bit spooked, as we were supposed to be having a "piste" day but she said she just wore it as a routine, which made sense to me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, that's nothing. I once went on a map-reading/navigation course in the Peak District (it was great, just a day out organised entirely for free, by the Rangers) and when I got home, had a little practice in Richmond Park. I must have looked like a total nogwit.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
I couldn't remember a thing about using a sextent now though - |
I believe it could lead to intents pleasure. 
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| As I remember, the "Yoorkshire Pudding" came out onto the piste much lower than the main group and the pole flinging started after he had walked back up to us (we stopped near a fork in the piste). His mood was not helped when we skied back down to where he had started his walk uphill |
You're saying he was a tad forked off then?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pedantica, so what are you supposed to do these days? Run around looking lost with Apple Maps on an iPhone?
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| Freddie Paellahead wrote: |
| I also feel a posy tw@t if I carry my shovel and probe - so usually don't unless I am "officially" off piste (ie "properly" off piste with a guide). |
Me too, in fact I feel like a fraud, making out I'm more gnarly than I am. That's why I carry my HeliPro instead of my helipack if I'm carrying stuff on the off-chance rather than def going off the side; the HeliPro conceals the kit where the Helipack has the shovel in full view.
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FAQ
