 Poster: A snowHead
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Many ski instructors tend to have their devotees. If you want the instruction that works best for you then it is probably best to try different ski instructors or at least talk to people who have tried different ski instructors. There are differences in the quality but often the customer will not have the awareness to appreciate the quality of the instructor so it can just be a peronality/style preference rather thanan objective assessment as people naturally tend to justify their own decisions.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I found the two DVDs of his I have very useful, even if I really don't like the way he skis... 
Good luck to him - a bit of diversity is a good thing.
Don't I remember him crediting God in the credits/on the back of one DVD? Surely if Warren really is a proper ski instructor, God should be crediting him?!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
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Japan, Verbier and Castleford
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the holy trinity of skiing! |
Well spotted, I thought it had been wasted 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Fattes13, I'm not bitter I like the chap, skied with him a lot in the early days of Pete and Warren. I'm just not a fan of PR bull, but would not tell anything to the contrary.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Done a fair amount of skiing with the lanky ginger lad in the past and the summer camps he used to run in Tignes are still some of the most insane trips i've ever been on. To this day the only coach I've ever had who abandoned his lesson with us cos he was projectile vomiting on the floor of a cable car
Ignoring all the PR stuff the fact is he's a real grafter and has definetly put in the hours & deserves his success.
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What's wrong with the way Warren skis? I haven't seen him ski much but what I have seen looks pretty good to me . . . Certainly there are at least a couple of BASI Trainers I've seen who look like they could learn a thing or two from him 
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slikedges, different people like different styles.... Aesthetics that's all. Actually i wonder if a lot of ski instructors look a bit different when demonstrating, I guess because of the need to emphasise movements, weighting, phases of skiing.
So many different ways of skiing. But a lot of people who thinks there is only one right way?
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stoat of the dead, i am not sure there are so many ways to ski efficiently and effectively...
Form follows function.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Cynic, Fair enough but he does back it up with lots of hard work.
stoat of the dead, Idiots think there is only one right way! The reality is if you have a 6 foot 4 very athletic 100kg man he is going to ski very diffrently to a 5 foot 1 60 kg man.
The best comparison I ever heard was from a head of a Swiss Ski School.
BASI have a line and everyone must tow it or be on it, the Swiss have a box and anywhere in the box is acceptable.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
Cynic, Fair enough but he does back it up with lots of hard work.
stoat of the dead, Idiots think there is only one right way! The reality is if you have a 6 foot 4 very athletic 100kg man he is going to ski very diffrently to a 5 foot 1 60 kg man.
The best comparison I ever heard was from a head of a Swiss Ski School.
BASI have a line and everyone must tow it or be on it, the Swiss have a box and anywhere in the box is acceptable. |
Are you swiss or basi qualified or both?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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An interesting collection of views and comments. IMHO those against mainly echo the view of 90% of the national/regional bodies in the business of regulating the teaching of skiing - whatever we do we must never actually teach people to ski, only to think they need more and more (relatively useless and expensive) instruction 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skir67, My qualification comes from elswhere (But applies the BASI linear model for the most part) but I can transfer to the Swiss qualification if I so wish.
The reason I found it funny was from experience generally True, Especially at L1 & 2 instructors. There is a great beleif with a number of BASI Trainers that there is only 1 way to ski which sadly is not true
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^ Yes, there is a difference between personal style and good technique.
However....
BASI deliver instructor training course's. It makes sense to have a defined benchmark so people know what level is required to pass / fail. If you are a good skier then you will be able to adapt and learn the required techniques to pass your technical exams.
Warren Smith deliver's intermediate lessons to holiday makers who want to make the most of the ability, fitness and limited time on snow and have aspirations to ski off piste / moguls etc. This is a very different scenario.
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| There is a great beleif with a number of BASI Trainers that there is only 1 way to ski which sadly is not true |
Simply not true...
There are a great number of superb BASI coaches and trainers - all of whom adapt their lessons dependeing on the scenario & client.
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You know it makes sense.
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Haggis_Trap, I was not comparing what BASI deliver and what Warren delivers
As for the below read my original quote again "number of BASI Trainers" is the important bit! I am talking about the delivering of instructor training and assesments not teaching.
There are plenty of excellent BASI based instructors operating in the world who deliver excellent lessons to their clients.
The issue is with the training structure.
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Quote:
There is a great beleif with a number of BASI Trainers that there is only 1 way to ski which sadly is not true
Simply not true...
There are a great number of superb BASI coaches and trainers - all of whom adapt their lessons dependeing on the scenario & client.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Fattes13, Agreed. Warren and his team have always delivered a great product with pasion and integrity. The coaching is pretty consistent and designed to stretch and challenge whilst building skills that skiers sign up for. Warren works hard to ensure he has a an edge to market and of course delivers this with a commercial focus which is why he's still in a growing business which people return to year after year. If it wasn't good, word would soon get out and no-one would rebook.
Top marks of 10/10 for Warren and the team from me.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 13-12-12 14:49; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Great to see a British success story related to skiing. I've got a couple of his videos and I think they are really useful and fun to watch, which maybe is a key element of his success. I like his skiing style too, regardless of whether or not it fits in with "official" BASI standards or whatever else. He's obviously found a niche in the market and made the most of it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There are specific capabilities that you need to demonstrate for the different BASI instructor levels but there is no BASI way of skiing. The methods or style of an Austrian or BASI instructor or another country may vary but the same fundamentals of sking apply. They have to as the basic laws of physics and human biomechanics are the same. An IASI level instructor is good enough for most skiers most of the time. Good PR does not mean that someone is the best skier or instructor but if it is safe, enjoyable and you learn then that it is all that matters. Most skiers as most things in life simply do not have the awareness to know where someone is a good skier or ski instructor amd make a judgement based on expectataions and personality fit. You really need to go with different instructors or talk to different people with experience to make an objective assessment as opposed to making a subjective assessment justifying your choice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| There are specific capabilities that you need to demonstrate for the different BASI instructor levels but there is no BASI way of skiing. The methods or style of an Austrian or BASI instructor or another country may vary but the same fundamentals of sking apply. |
^ exactly....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Haggis_Trap, You didn't mention straight shinned Italians.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's been interesting to see how this thread pans out, as I've never met Warren Smith and can only judge from his 'online media appearances' and what's been said above.
However, as a one-time trainee of Ali Ross (who worked extensively with Sunday Times writers and even its legendary editor Harold Evans (latterly Sir Harold)) I can see some similarities between him and Warren Smith in terms of a relationship with BASI. Ali Ross has taught countless media people, actors and so on, over the decades.
Back in 1975, on Cairngorm, I witnessed Ali having strong arguments with other BASI trainers about the progression of teaching the parallel turn from the snowplough turn. The difference between him and Warren is maybe that he has always been considered a technician par excellence, whereas the collective opinion of Warren expressed here is maybe less reverential.
Where Warren has clearly excelled is in communication and marketing of his product, but with an effective teaching programme too. Ali's personality, I think it's fair to say, 'suffers no fools' and has had some amusing encounters with certain members of the scribbling trade. Warren will clearly mix with anyone who can joke along with his matey approach, but is clearly also a charismatic teacher.
Ski instruction is full of knobHeads and pontificators. It's actually not the most complex field of education, and really requires great clarity and simplicity above all things. And one might as well enjoy the experience. A fun ski instructor is everything. Learning with Ali was one of the great experiences of my life, on the limited terrain available on Cairngorm in the month of May, and I'm sure people say the same about learning with Warren.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Fundamentals of skiing apply"
I think that's what I meant...
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So Warren has the top Austrian qualification, the top Swiss qualification, he used to be part of the coaching team for the Austrian downhill team (some years ago).
He, and his team, are ISIA and most have done ISTD Tech and Teach too.
He (and they) have taught hundreds/thousands of happy customers......BUT....he is not ISTD and cannot teach in France because he has not passed a "safety test".
Thank God for the Eurotest....it has manged to serve its purpose exactly as planned and has stopped a potentially unsafe instructor from teaching in France 
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One thing not mentioned here is what he has done for the kids and young freestylers. His British Freeski camps are superb, they are not a big money making exercise, I imagine they just about cover costs. Many of these kids can spin till they're dizzy but aren't the greatest skiers and I think many of them can thank him for making them solid all rounders and getting sponsored.. He also regularly organises freestyle comps. I went on one of these camps a few years ago with a couple of other middle aged t**** and some of those kids who were on our camp will be competing in the Olympics next year. Don't get me wrong I'm sure he enjoys the celebrity endorsements but he does give back as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BASI. hahahaha, aren't they the "loose Women" of th skibusiness.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rungsp, I thought with the top Austrian qualification you could teach anywhere, as with the top BASI Qualification? Are BASI 4 ISTD and the Staatliche qualification not equal?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Not knowing any of the politics/personalities behind any of this the WS website is brilliant. It offers exactly what we've been looking for to push our skiing forward. Unfortunately I refuse to pay Verbier prices for rent, especially considering we're already paying Swiss prices in the lowlands  otherwise I'd be booking in a heartbeat
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Guernseyfreerider, Dam straight himself and Uncle Sharples have a lot of credit due for their incredible hard work.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Top Austrian qualification and coached national austrian team? - having seen WS and national Austrian skiers skiers ski I'm intrigued to know what he coached them on - apres? That does not mean that you need to be top qualified or national race team coach to provide satisisfied customers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| What is the magic formula? |
As a Warren customer I think the formula is quite simple.
At a time where probably no one else other than Phil Smith had a "bloody clue" that there was a whole body of frustrated intermediates who wanted to get substantially better than they were he provided a product that addressed their needs. He provided DVDs (initially videos with PSG) that broke down technique into achievable chunks that could be practiced in isolation. The DVDs had high production values; slow motion and graphics. (Even now the BASI offerings are positively shabby in comparison.)
He set up week long courses where frustrated intermediates could meet like-minded people. Ran one day indoor clinics. Provided young, keen instructors of whom he demanded a lot. Told the punters about dryland training.
Most of all, he offered honest feedback - "that's rubbish, you're not trying" is one of his milder forms of feedback. And those frustrated intermediates loved having honest feedback because they wanted to be better.
Even now, Phil Smith and Neil McNab (snowboarding) probably have the only equivalent products.
I find it somewhat amusing that I've heard tales of BASI Trainers sitting watching his DVDs at Trainer's Conferences and taking the wee wee out of his skiing. At a time when not one of them had the guts to try something similar themselves. They may be "better skiers", but the world rewards them that stump up - not the ones that talk a good game. Warren stumped up.
Personally, I admire that he has succeeded in spite of the system. And in spite of people who consider that he shouldn't succeed because they are "better skiers".
Is he the best skier on the mountain? No. Is his technique "flawless"? No.
But the BASI people who criticise him miss the point that most people learning something like physics would prefer learning from an inspirational (but maybe ultimately limited) teacher than a university professor.
While BASI quietly only values the professors, Warren has quietly gone about influencing the skiing of more British recreational skiers than any other living ski instructor through his DVDs, clinics and courses. All power to his elbow. |
I'd agree with all the above and most of the time he manages to stay on the right side of arseiness.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| Top Austrian qualification and coached national austrian team? - having seen WS and national Austrian skiers skiers ski I'm intrigued to know what he coached them on - apres? That does not mean that you need to be top qualified or national race team coach to provide satisisfied customers. |
Butch Harmon coached Tiger Woods for years, and Butch is pish at golf.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Traditionally there were many skiing styles that related to school of skiing. Talk to any older BASI trainer and he'll tell you the Canadians, French, Italians, Arlberg, Tirol etc schools all had a look so BASI were in good company. Obviously not all skiers from these schools had the look to the same extent or even at all. I think it's all changing now and that modern skiers from all schools are skiing more similarly because of skill rather than form based teaching and trainers, using principles that are obviously drawn from the efficiency of ski racing fundamentals that are largely universal between systems and schools.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In terms of teaching method, what does Warren Smith do differently to BASI? Are there specific techniques taught by each school that would result in a different style of skiing or is it purely down to a different teaching methodology?
I'm interested to know how students of each method - disregarding individual variables - would differ in their technique.
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Its just packaging the product. There are a lot of skiers who do not want to bother with lessons at all. There is a intermediate ski instruction market for skiers who say they want to improve their technique but actually do not ski that often and want to ski as much as possible on their holiday, ski places they would not otherwise go and get a few tips along the way. And then there are those people who ski often and really want to focus on improving their technique rather than just ski around when they are having instruction. Some instructors cater for certain of these markets and others vary their product according to what the customer wants. Austrians tend to like to using drills more which probably comes from their racing background but a good Austrian and British instructor will give you exactly the same technical advice. The thought of WS coaching the Austrian national team is amusing though given his reputation amongst in the Austrian market.
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| TTT wrote: |
| Most skiers as most things in life simply do not have the awareness to know where someone is a good skier or ski instructor amd make a judgement based on expectataions and personality fit. You really need to go with different instructors or talk to different people with experience to make an objective assessment as opposed to making a subjective assessment justifying your choice. |
While I agree in principle, most people instinctively know when something is good or crap. You don't tend to hear of many (or even any at all) complaints relating to Warren Smith's courses. So he must be doing something right. Maybe there are better technical instructors out there, but perhaps not targeting the same market i.e. intermediates looking to improve their skiing and have a bit of fun along the way.
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uktrailmonster,
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You don't tend to hear of many (or even any at all) complaints relating to Warren Smith's courses
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Perhaps this doesn't count, but a day at Hemel with one of his acolytes, left me feeling very bored and very cold. We spent almost the whole day doing bracquage!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
