 Poster: A snowHead
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The ski hosting issue has been around since at least the late 80s/early 90's. The TOs used to offer "ski guiding" (same thing different title) but as guide is a recognised qualification they were forced to change the name to ski hosting which seemed to calm the situation for a few years.
As a service it was popular some times and not others, it was a great way for the less outgoing solo skiers to meet people and ski with them without being taken out of their comfort zone and without having to make decisions about where to ski. They also got to see most of the resort without having to pay for lessons (whether that be a good or a bad thing!).
I think it's a shame it's gone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thing to do is vote with your feet and go to countries where the TO's are still allowed to provide the service
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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not that many of those - and in the case of Austria it's not all over, I believe.
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@Burrow01, Bulgaria?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| James the Last wrote: |
That seems a bit rude. You're being taken skiing by somebody who is paid about £50 a week, and you're expecting them to watch whilst you eat lunch? Or spend their entire pay on your lunch?
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IME the host gets a very good free dinner from the restaurant for bringing in over a certain number of punters.
i like the ski hosting services offered by the TOs. they know more about the area than i do (usually) and i just want to ski/board, not think about where to go, and definitely not spend half my time looking at the piste map. lazy? probably. i don't care.
i have voted with my feet and go to countries where it is allowed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd agree go somewhere that allows hosting if it is important to you or make friends and aquaintenaces to ski with. Checking maps only takes a few minutes each day and can be often done in the lift or breaks.
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Been to Italy and Canada where this is still offered
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Certainly stopped in some places in Italy
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Was definitely on offer from Inghams in Arraba last year - this was on piste and a "no Black Run" rule, but we did get shown around
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What is stopping it in the other places?
For France the ESF are obviously blocking it, but in other countries is it the TO's that are stopping doing it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Certainly stopped in some places in Italy
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and the carabinieri have been getting tough on unqualified instructors too
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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and British catered chalets have been closed down in Italy too, IIRC. Breaking Italian laws.
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You know it makes sense.
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I recall from the Chalet debate that this is a general EU and CH employment law issue.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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certainly in switzerland, there's a requirement to pay the foreign workers the same wages as a swiss national.
that's not £50pw.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Easy to fix just dont wear a TO jacket
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| RedLemon wrote: |
certainly in switzerland, there's a requirement to pay the foreign workers the same wages as a swiss national.
that's not £50pw. |
Min wage is a measly CHF4000 p/m 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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it's not a question of minimum wage, but equivalency.
if a swiss was paid minimum wage for the same job, then it would apply i guess. seems that is not the case as i read at least one chalet company has cancelled all swiss holidays this season.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
What is stopping it in the other places?
For France the ESF are obviously blocking it, but in other countries is it the TO's that are stopping doing it?
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In Fact it is not the ESF who are blocking it in France it is s212 of the Code du Sport. it is similar in other countries where either their regional or national laws do not allow this type of activity when it is for payment.
Sorry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There is no formal minimum wage in Switzerland
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You cant help feeling that those countries who are causing the Brits to withdraw their chalets, ski hosting and in some cases holidays will eventually wake up to the fact that the Brits will stop going and they will have widespread vacancies. Personally I do think chalet staff deserve a bit more than they are generally paid, most of them work immensely hard and put in lots of hours but they are generally young people who go in to this with their eyes open and have a great season (or even two). Ski hosting is not nor ever has been instructing and is a very valued service for lots of people and I would hope that Brits would vote with their feet to show the authorities that their reasoning for tightening up on these aspects of the winter holiday is bizarre to say the least. It wont create more jobs for locals and it would do anything to enhance the local economies nor any feel good factor about the countries concerned.
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^ +1
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@FFIRMIN, @martinm, Sounds good but you forget that the ex eastern block countries as they continue to develop as are others around the world will more than take up the slack caused by the lack of Brits going to these resorts. All the resorts need do is direct any advertising in their direction rather than towards the UK. They may have a year of lower attendance. How when tthey have these other countries filling the void do UK companys get back in?
The only way to deal with it is for the TO to sit down and work out what a fair wage ( the local min wage ) allowing for accomodation and utility bills plus food would be and offer to pay that and hope the authorities agree it is acceptable. I would not include uniform or lift pass in this calculation even though they would be provided as they are then items you can use to offset ie if they say no you need to pay x amount more you could then remove the lift pass and or food and like locals the employee would have to sort that out themselves.
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True, but the Russians have by all accounts dwindled a lot this year due to the financial effects of the Ukraine stuff. I seem to go to France cos that's where I can join a group (Billy no-mates) and a friend has a chalet in France. I'd happily go anywhere decent in Europe given the choice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
the ex eastern block countries as they continue to develop as are others around the world will more than take up the slack caused by the lack of Brits
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This. We already have hordes of Hungarians and Czechs, more every season.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The chalet situation as I understand is not some anti Brit skier thing but EU and CH law that the conditions for foreign employees are the same as local employees. It is fairer for employees and employers and I think most people agree the law is better and fairer.
No one has claimed that hosting is instructing. It is illegal in some countries to lead a group without the required qualifications. The instructors and reps on here indicate it is a very minor activity. Sympathise that it is important for some people but there are other alternatives such as making friends and acquantances, SH, social skiing, qualified hosts, SBGB, lessons or going to a country where it is not illegal.
It would be interesting to know if people have stopped skiing in the EU and CH as a result of employment law or France, Italy and St Anton regarding hosting. No doubt there is some but suspect not significant. Certainly not heard a whisper amongst the numerous skiers I know and speak to.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 21-02-15 15:57; edited 1 time in total
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TTT - an ideal world!
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't think changing the laws of the EU and another country to suit a few people is a compelling argument and I really not aware of evidence that enforcing these laws is having a significant impact on business. Everyone I know and speak to will still go skiing where they want to go. A far bigger impact is the CH fx rate but that won't change just to make holidays for other nationals cheaper.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I dont want to be too conroversial but I dont think it is correct to say people will still go skiing whre they want to go. Chalet holidays have been the holiday or choice for so many Brits for both the potential for convivial company but also for their all inclusive nature which is an important financial consideration for many. I think many Brits will start to look further afield to get holidays within their budgets and I suspect there will be an increasing number of Brits who will be sufficiently put out by the way things are going as to boycott the countries who are making life difficult. There is no overall EU law about minimum wage, each country sets its own minimum wage and how it is calculated varies from place to place, in some countries attaching benefits can be quantified and added to actual pay in other countries not so. While it may be true that in Switzerland hotel workers are paid the quite high minimum wage for that country I dont think this is a rule across the whole of the EU. While you (TTT) may not know of people who would decline to travel to certain countries because of the changes I do know of people who will re-think their future holiday plans.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I suppose the French closed shop supporters will think that they will drive this business from UK staff into the willing arms of ESF people. That is, they're hoping that all the British punters will see the error of their ways and start paying money to honest French trained ESF people, who are already well known around the world for their high standard of customer service.
In the real world... they're more likely to drive that business to other places where the laws are less restrictive and quality of service is better as there are fewer restrictive labour policies.
Personally I think that in the long run poor quality of service will cost you more business than you would lose from an open market.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@FFIRMIN, I'm sure you are right that some people will change their destination as a result but as hosting is only used by a small minority and of those I suspect it is only a decision factor for a small proportion then I doubt it is a big factor. Likewise as the employment laws are across EU and CH I doubt that it will have a big impact. Where outside EU and CH are there major brit chalet options?
It is scary that some people still think ESF run a closed shop when there are more option in France than elsewhere. You have to question the motivation for such a comment which is so divorced from reality.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| philwig wrote: |
I suppose the French closed shop supporters will think that they will drive this business from UK staff into the willing arms of ESF people. That is, they're hoping that all the British punters will see the error of their ways and start paying money to honest French trained ESF people, who are already well known around the world for their high standard of customer service.
In the real world... they're more likely to drive that business to other places where the laws are less restrictive and quality of service is better as there are fewer restrictive labour policies.
Personally I think that in the long run poor quality of service will cost you more business than you would lose from an open market. |
Couldn't agree more.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I suppose the French closed shop supporters will think that they will drive this business from UK staff into the willing arms of ESF people. That is, they're hoping that all the British punters will see the error of their ways and start paying money to honest French trained ESF people, who are already well known around the world for their high standard of customer service.
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I actually don't think that's their mentality at all. They don't care or haven't even thought about the business side of it. They see a law being broken so they do something about it, simple as.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@stevomcd, Of course it's driven by the ESF, it's all about the money they want to make from so-called ski guiding.
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When you watch them running groups of up to 16 this week just gone I would not put it past them. Money making machine. I get on well with the individual instructors but I do not agree with the way ESF run such huge groups just to turn a greater profit. Business is business but you cant put a customers safety at risk to turn greater profits.
So I guess they could be taking action with the thought to profit. However they are within their rights to do so. It can and has been argued that ski hosts have put clients at risk. Laws should be upheld, ideally for all the right reasons. But at the end of the day like its been said, the law as it is written is being broken/ignored and if we applied that to other things or something back in the UK you can see why people would be upset. Like people in their car taking Taxi fares without the qualifications and papers required for example, yes they can drive and they might not charge the same but they shouldnt be doing it. Its all quite black and white really.
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I think it is a combination of both some ESF and official have looked to protect jobs others have looked at, are laws being broken and yet others have just said oh ! and have no inclination to either view.
I do think the ESF could have used all this better as an opportunity to work closer with the ski leaders/guides call them what you will and the TO and by doing so drummed up more buisness that way and improved an image that instead be it rightly or wrongly has been tarnished by all this.
They could have encouraged further training of the leaders by showing the benfits to the TO of better skiiled employees.
If it had been me in charge of an ESF school I would have had one of my most sociable most helpful instructors meet up with the leaders and try and promote lessons and the resort, and viewed it as an opportunity not as a problem.
The way this is being done nobody is a winner the TO are being portrayed as lawbreakers who may not care about their customers/employees and the ESF officials etc as protectionist.
The added issue of paying minimum wage just shows TO as organisations more bothered about lining their own pockets and the resorts as again being protectionist for local workers.
Just why can none of these pretty big organisations actually employ people with brains, if they had this would all have been nipped in the bud many years ago because there will have been tension and rumours going around for a good few seasons prior to the action.
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There is no closed shop in France. There are more options in France than anywhere else.
Everyone agrees hosting is not instruction and is a very minor activity. There is no significant money to be made out of hosting. It has been stopped because it is illegal - quite rightly based on the hosts I've seen.
The chalet situation again is simply because it is against general EU and CH employee protection law. There is nothing ski specific about. Employment law is not decided on the basis of Brit skiing holiday makers.
I agree 16 in a class is too much. Allowing temporary lower qualified workers seems the solution which is effectively what happens in AU, Aosta and CH.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| speed098 wrote: |
If it had been me in charge of an ESF school I would have had one of my most sociable most helpful instructors meet up with the leaders and try and promote lessons and the resort, and viewed it as an opportunity not as a problem.
The way this is being done nobody is a winner the TO are being portrayed as lawbreakers who may not care about their customers/employees and the ESF officials etc as protectionist. |
Exactly.
| TTT wrote: |
| There is no closed shop in France. |
Laws have been made expressly to create a "closed shop", but it's got nothing to do with money of course.
Oh, hang on. 
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| TTT wrote: |
| There is no closed shop in France. . |
As I said above unfortunatly some will be doing what they are doing because they want a closed shop.
Many more because they perceive laws are being broken.
And a few just don't really have any interest in what is going on one way or the other all they want to do is continue doing their job.
It is human nature some will do what they do to protect their own interests rightly or wrongly, they will be a minority but unfortunatly a minority that pushes the hardest and ensures the issues raised gather pace rather than sit down and talk it through.
I feel sorry for those ESF who just want to pass on their love of the sport and help others enjoy it as much as they do which is most likely 90% plus.
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FAQ
