Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
Tom from Austria, thanks for those answers, much appreciated. A few further comments:
Quote:
A) Yes, definitely yes, that is why wings were invented. So each consecutive turn can have different radius, e.g 15m, 35m, 7m, 5m, 40m, ...
What do you have to do to ski a carved turn with those different radii? On a regular ski you can tip it to a bigger edge angle and it will carve a tighter turn. How does the wing achieve the same outcome? Does pushing the wing further in to the snow make it carve a tighter turn?
Quote:
...while executing a single turn you can intentionally modify its instantaneous radius. How? By modifying the torque caused by your legs.
If you are applying a torque (twisting force) to your skis you are no longer carving. I was particularly interested in how you vary the turn shape of a carved turn.
Quote:
B) As a prerequisit for skidding aside, the wing must be released from its groove in the snow or ice.
Does the ski need to be completely flat in order to twist it if you are on firm snow? I'm trying to understand how much the wing grips the snow, and how quickly it engages the snow when you begin to tip the ski.
Quote:
C) Wings are not efficient in powder yet they do not disturb.
If the wings don't bring any advantage to skiing in powder (and presumably on piste in soft or slushy snow) wouldn't it be better to be on a ski of standard length to make fore/aft balance easier to achieve and to stop the ski sinking uncontrollably in to the powder?
I like the way you are approaching the physics of skiing, rob@rar.
A) Ok, "On a regular ski you can tip it to a bigger edge angle and it will carve a tighter turn."
That is the only way to vary the radius of the side-cut without skidding or jumping. Both methods are widely utilized by slalom racers in order to make the turn wider resp. tighter. Partly skidded or jumped turn is, of course, no clean carved turn.
This is just where the RaxSki starts. Both fins and wings are in principle short (3 to 10cm effective length in the groove) blades which CAN be ROTATED even in a tight icy groove when the skier twists his feet more or less such rotating the ski along the vertical axis and consequently fins and wings. Rotated blade is interacting with the wall of the groove and finally deviating the whole ski right or left.
The best on this story is that the rider has got a fine direction control by just twisting the feet.
The only difference between rear fins and central wings is that skier must activate fins by his weight transfer backwards, i.e. leaning back.
The wing is activated automatically by putting the ski on the edge and presses on the snow with the full weight of the skier.
B) Well, even in the case of a regular ski, the edge must be first released from its circular groove before the ski starts skidding aside.
But with wings cutting the groove it is not so easy to skid. This feature is crucial for excellent tracking.
So what you should do if you have to brake suddenly by skidding? Just release the ski from the groove by a slight jump! The other method - reducing the angulation by weight transfer - needs more time to be executed.
You are right if you are concerned about "how much the wing grips the snow". Yet this high-grip is the new dimension in skiing.
I can tell you that up to now no tester complained about too much high-grip. With today`s regular skis it is mostly the opposite case - lacking high-grip.
C) You are asking "If the wings don't bring any advantage to skiing in powder (and presumably on piste in soft or slushy snow) wouldn't it be better to be on a ski of standard length"
No, the RaxSki with rear fins beats regular long skis in powder and on slushy groomers. Our base model "Rocker with Wings" got both fins and wings
No, the RaxSki with rear fins beats regular long skis in powder and on slushy groomers. Our base model "Rocker with Wings" got both fins and wings
That's a big claim to make! Would you be able to explain how a short ski with wings and fins beats a regular ski in powder and slush?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Tom from Austria,
Quote:
Rotated blade is interacting with the wall of the groove and finally deviating the whole ski right or left.
The best on this story is that the rider has got a fine direction control by just twisting the feet.
A 3 - 10 cm wing/blade is certainly NOT carving the ski. The wing/blade set up you have on the cut-off skis will limit the"carving" qualities of that ski, the wing/blade addition will only "cut" a groove that can be used to "deviate" the rest of the cut-off ski left or right.
"Carving" it is not, cutting and twisting of the wing/blade/feet system is merely that. That explains the frequent over-rotation of the skiers in the video clip, there's not enough "feel" nor "edge" to carve/control the finish section of a turn due to the lack of ski edge behind the rear binding. The wing alone is not sufficient to steer the ski, and that is why the direction control is by the twisting of the feet.
Tom.......... constructive idea............ perhaps it would be a greater step forward to develop an integrated binding/wing/blade system. Or a rear-binding/wing/blade unit. Such a unit will need to be slightly over-engineered so as to limit any sheering from the main ski body. Tortional rigidity across that part/unit is quite pronounced and with the "twisting" to control direction there's going to be relatively large stress/strain issues.
Whe wing things provide additional grip around which you pivot the cut off bit of old ski to turn?
Why do you need the wing thins? I can ski just as well as your Czech friends on any old cut off bit of old ski.
And you need the tail so that your cut off bit of old knackered ski doesn't behave like trying to ski on a ski boot in powder.
A good few stops beyond Barking.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
under a new name, .............. "barmy" is the word I've already used.
I can just see it now............. I go out and buy a pair of Whitedots, cut the back end off both skis, screw on a wingy-thingie-blade, got myself a Rocker-Wingy......... and huck it off a 200footer and "cut" the best set of S's on my powder beaters.
Then I'd wake up............. commit hari-kiri using rear stumps of my shortened Preachers.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Do you think there's any scope for doing a similar modification to a snowboard? Due to a purchasing error, I've got a lot of toe and heel drag when I snowboard.
Maybe I could just snap the tail off the board, and attach a couple of meat cleavers to my right boot.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
Tom from Austria wrote:
No, the RaxSki with rear fins beats regular long skis in powder and on slushy groomers. Our base model "Rocker with Wings" got both fins and wings
That's a big claim to make! Would you be able to explain how a short ski with wings and fins beats a regular ski in powder and slush?
Please do not read my answer as "SHORT RaxSki with rear fins beats regular long skis in powder".
The message was rather "RaxSki with REAR FINS beats regular long skis in powder".
For powder the rear fins cannot be large enough. They make the ski maneuvrable like a surfboard or even a ship.
The rule of thumb is: the steeper a powder slope the shorter a ski with fins can be. In narrow couloirs you may require easy turning as well as sufficient floating. So it could be even this wide 1m-ski
For long turns in powder at higher speeds there is also the "Big Rax" with snowboard-size base and 14cm underfoot
[img][/img]
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 16-11-12 14:46; edited 2 times in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Tom from Austria, ah, sorry for my confusion!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Tom from Austria, ............... No doubt................... Inspired Genius.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Tom from Austria wrote:
B) As a prerequisit for skidding aside, the wing must be released from its groove in the snow or ice. This can be achieved by less inclination of the body, causing less edging or even putting ski on the full running base. At that moment the rider must rotate the ski in such a way that it is skidding.
.
The many different times when you want to side slip or do a forward travelling side slip are usually precisely when you are on a steep slope and want to keep precise control of a required sideways movement and do NOT want to flatten the ski. I'd say this was an admission it is only useful on gentler slopes. (?)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I see some rather clever photoshopping going on, I do...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
snowball wrote:
Tom from Austria wrote:
B) As a prerequisit for skidding aside, the wing must be released from its groove in the snow or ice. This can be achieved by less inclination of the body, causing less edging or even putting ski on the full running base. At that moment the rider must rotate the ski in such a way that it is skidding.
.
The many different times when you want to side slip or do a forward travelling side slip are usually precisely when you are on a steep slope and want to keep precise control of a required sideways movement and do NOT want to flatten the ski. I'd say this was an admission it is only useful on gentler slopes. (?)
That´s right, you are finally skidding on the edge or edge+wing+fin which is perpendicular to the direction of travel. My sentence B) describes the switch from the carving modus (the edge is roughly parallel to the direction of travel) to the skidding modus.
With the RaxSki (equipped with wings and/or fins) the skidding is really the very last option in a critical situation (you are wounded or you´ve lost one ski) as this ski offers the "turn on rear fins" for zick-zack descents in extreme steeps. The photo below shows a series of "turns on rear fins" - no jumping is visible. Each turn on this 50-60° wall was executed with both ski tips high above the ground.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 16-11-12 18:57; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
this ski offers the "turn on rear fins" for zick-zack descents in extreme steeps
So they are single use only devices?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
under a new name wrote:
Quote:
this ski offers the "turn on rear fins" for zick-zack descents in extreme steeps
So they are single use only devices?
No, this "turn on rear fins" just extends the variety of usual turn techniques. The same ski can carve, classic weddel, skid and even jump if you prefer it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Tom from Austria, OK, single use users then? Do they get delivered with pre printed last wills and testaments?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
quote...."So what you should do if you have to brake suddenly by skidding? Just release the ski from the groove by a slight jump!"
Then what?
I think ^^^ this would be my biggest worry!
So I'm traveling with a little speed on and I for whatever reason I need to knock off my speed quickly but it's a tight space I've found myself in so I can't go right or left, aside from jumping over the situation...my first reaction would most likely be to kill my speed by "skidding" it off sideways in the hope of reducing/eliminating the impact, this is all possible on a traditional ski.
So now I'm on this new gadget I jump as you say and am still going at speed...then what?
An edge catching catapult into said object of avoidance is not a preferred option!
Each turn on this 50-60° wall was executed with both ski tips high above the ground.
Sounds terrifying!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
gatecrasher wrote:
quote...."So what you should do if you have to brake suddenly by skidding? Just release the ski from the groove by a slight jump!"
Then what?
I think ^^^ this would be my biggest worry!
So I'm traveling with a little speed on and I for whatever reason I need to knock off my speed quickly but it's a tight space I've found myself in so I can't go right or left, aside from jumping over the situation...my first reaction would most likely be to kill my speed by "skidding" it off sideways in the hope of reducing/eliminating the impact, this is all possible on a traditional ski.
So now I'm on this new gadget I jump as you say and am still going at speed...then what?
An edge catching catapult into said object of avoidance is not a preferred option!
Your question: "What should you do if you have to brake suddenly by skidding?"
Answer: Just the same you are used to do when you are in the same situation while carving (not skidding) on regular ski. That means you have to turn your regular side-cut ski by approximately 90°. For this operation, there is no difference between edge and wing+edge. This rotation by 90° takes some time. But with the wings you have got another option: very tight turn with the radius of 2 to 3 meters, hoping that you can pass the obstacle this way.
Your question: "I'm traveling with a little speed on and I for whatever reason I need to knock off my speed quickly but it's a tight space..."
Answer: the same as before.
Summary: 1) try to avoid such a situation, never plunge in a group of people at full speed.
2) if you are already in such a situation and there is some possibility of passing by, start a sharp turn on wings/fins
3) if you see no exit left or right, jump and turn both skis in the air by 90°. Prepare for hard landing on both edges.
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowball wrote:
Tom from Austria wrote:
Each turn on this 50-60° wall was executed with both ski tips high above the ground.
Sounds terrifying!
Yeah, Snowball, can you find any other explanation for these smooth, uninterrupted grooves ?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Tom from Austria, thanks for your explanation, obviously with traditional ski edges you can adjust the amount of grip/friction/slowing forces even during an emergency stop situation, I feel that these wings would be "all grip no slip" in such an instinctive maneuver, "preparing for a hard landing on the edges" isn't something I want my mcl's involved in given the options.
I will keep an open mind on it and hope to see it demonstrated in the forthcoming videos.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
gatecrasher wrote:
Tom from Austria, thanks for your explanation, obviously with traditional ski edges you can adjust the amount of grip/friction/slowing forces even during an emergency stop situation, I feel that these wings would be "all grip no slip" in such an instinctive maneuver, "preparing for a hard landing on the edges" isn't something I want my mcl's involved in given the options.
I will keep an open mind on it and hope to see it demonstrated in the forthcoming videos.
Ok, gatecrasher, that`s fine
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Ok, so only the ski things are at risk?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Is anyone else simply really confused by this whole concept and what its hoping to achieve that a decent skier and the right skis cant already
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The second these become the norm on a ski hill I'm definitely killing myself. You would look a complete tit on these!!!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I can see the wings steering the skis by cutting their own groove, with what length of ski remaining, as Tom from Austria has said, preventing falling to the fore. This is similar to stabiliser wheels on a bicycle in both that they make it easier to ride a bicycle and also in that other than for gentle cycling they completely change the mechanics of turning. In other words, as under a new name & skimastaaah have alluded to, using them isn't really skiing any longer but more akin to riding a ski-scooter/bike, snowboard or cello case, some completely different method of getting down a slope. I think this is clearly so from the description of control of the "carved" turn radius by twisting the feet, and by the substitution of the tail of a normal ski for fins that, at least to my understanding, work much like picks on a figure skate - essentially a pivot on a point. That's not of course to say they wouldn't be fun to use!
However, I particularly agree with rob@rar that this design isn't versatile enough for general use. Like a ski bike or cello case. I think it could be great fun on empty blues but as they filled with people they'd get less fun. I suspect on anything steeper they'd require a fair amount of fitness, athleticism and skill to use safely but still have fun with (you could pootle about doing very sharp short turns but life's too short).
That said, this thread is useless without video of the latest incarnation.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Tom, don't worry, on yourr edited post of the50-60 degree slope, I find it difficult to photoshop with a mouse as well.
Go on, get yourself a decent art stylus, you deserve it, and I know you want it...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Tom from Austria, +1 on the call for video footage.
*chants......... We want video. We want video. We want video...............*
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
spiky1013 wrote:
Is anyone else simply really confused by this whole concept and what its hoping to achieve that a decent skier and the right skis cant already
I am with you, spiky. I think I understand your problem. The wings on a downhill-ski is like a sacrilege!
And there is just one remedy: give them a try.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimastaaah wrote:
Tom from Austria, +1 on the call for video footage.
*chants......... We want video. We want video. We want video...............*
Tom, ............. Tom,............... Tommy....... can you hear me?
Tom from Austria, +1 on the call for video footage.
*chants......... We want video. We want video. We want video...............*
Yes, Yes, Yes. But this November is very unusual month for us. No new snow, one potential rider is wounded, the other is otherwise engaged.
Please be patient. Is there really no snowhead in Austria who could ride the RaxSki2 and report ? Where is DB ?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Tom from Austria, Send me a pair, we've already had snow in Grassington.
... isn't really skiing any longer ...video of the latest incarnation.
Well, carving on a wing looks like carving on a side-cut edge. Yet the riding on rear fins of RaxSki 1.0 is different. Some people use the term "raxing" for this technique.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
[img][/img]
