hi, long time lurker, first post... I did stop briefly at the Snowheads booth at NEC to say hi, but everyone looked busy so i lingered, then left. I was going to comment on how civilised and mostly useful are the discussions on here, especially compared to some other forums I frequent [cycling, triathlon, rock climbing... the b*tchiness is sometimes funny, but wears a bit thin]. Then I saw the montblancskier NEC thread and thought 'ah, happens here, too', although it ended up the right way around.
Anyway, my question: my son has been on skis since age 3, is now 9. Last year, we lucked out at Whistler at the end of March and had many feet of new powder to play in... off piste and lots of time in the trees. He is now at the stage where he can disappear before I can figure out where he has gone - happened several times last year and twice I had to re-climb the hill and dig him out of waist deep powder. This was the same week that the unfortunate French national died in a tree well. I know, I could try telling him to stay near me and in sight, but I am trying to figure out if there is something that might actually be effective
In an ideal world, he would have a spy movie - type tracker thingie on him that I could follow on a screen and figure out if he is safely down in the lift queue or is stationary in the middle of the forest. I looked at devices like Spot Tracker but that didn't look like it would work. Perhaps an avi transceiver? There are a number of other GPS type tracking devices, but they rely on access to a mobile signal, which is not universal at Whistler [I think?]
Appreciate any thoughts,
greg
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Don't the new Recon goggles have a buddy tracker system in them? Not sure but vaguely remember reading that somewhere?!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It does but relies, as I think most of them do, on a mobile phone network to transmit location information, I can't recall seeing a personal tracking device that allows remote monitoring without using a mobile phone signal.
You've got to communicate somehow between the two people. Easiest way is with the mobile phone network but, if that's not available, you've got to resort to some other sort of radio signal. The easiest way I can think of is with a GPS radio collar that are sometimes used for dog location. Summat like this:
http://www.innerwolf.co.uk/gps-dog-locators/bs-planet-gps-dog-tracker-bs119.html
Expensive, and you'll have to check it's legal in whatever country you go to.
How about a whistle?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Almost all the ones I have seen rely on GSM+SMS. The cheap ebay ones are useless. We never even got them to work when placed on the roof of a car in the middle of a field on top of a hill near the phone mast!
There are some dog trackers on the US market (Garmin do one), which might be better.
The RF transmitter based ones (which do work incredibly well if you have a spare £1000 to spend) afaik all need a licence and/or are allowed only in certain countries, and/or need to be used outside of their official legally permitted use.
Having lost a child, younger than yours, on the ski slopes I can quite sympathise with your thought process. It was the most nightmare few hours (12 noon ish to 8pm though we knew he was safe by about 6pm) of my life. It was before mobile phones were that common and before there was much coverage in French ski resorts. But the very next year trip he, and his brothers, all had mobile phones on them. Not a perfect solution but along with pre-arranged rendezvous points in case of accidental separation and contact telephone numbers written on his and his brothers clothing we had no further frights! I should add that the French ski resort staff were extremely helpful and very re-assuring. I was lead to believe lost children are a not unusual event on the ski slopes.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
I should add that the French ski resort staff were extremely helpful and very re-assuring. I was lead to believe lost children are a not unusual event on the ski slopes.
What's also reassuring is that, in the places I ski at any rate, absolutely NO piste pashing goes on on open pistes. That would be my worst nightmare.....
After all it is free
After all it is free
Old school - whistle and teach him to use it without fail if he gets in a tree well/ hole. Secondly there's no reason not to keep him in sight if you're in trees. It's pretty dangerous to get separated whatever age you are in treewelll country.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
wittenham, some may scoff, but we lost 4 young 'uns for 45 minutes and I shat my pants A report HERE, 5th paragraph down Good luck in your quest.
CaravanSkier, do tell more!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Frosty the Snowman, that happened, although less extreme. He took a little shortcut that ended at top of a giant boulder rather than curving back on to the piste... He decided to ski down it anyway , almost made it, but lost a pole in a tree, then buried himself up to his waist in snow. He was all quite cheerful about it. Nice walk up to get him out...
fatbob, you are right of course... but it is not so much gladed runs as the little plays into the side of the piste that has caused the issues.
greg
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
the little plays into the side of the piste that has caused the issues.
you could just tell him not to go off the piste without express agreement between the two of you?
Or his pass gets confiscated.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Technology could make this problem worse. I.e. he feels more enabled to go off by himself because the technology should allow you to find him. But the technology doesn't always work, or let you get to him quickly enough. I think making sure he knows what he can and can't do, and the consequences of doing the stuff he's not allowed to do, is likely to be a better solution in the long term. But you know your 9 year old boy a lot better than us!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Frosty we were staying at Morzine and had skied over to Les Gets for lunch. My youngest was a very confident skier, and well able to keep up with the family. Dad was leading the way and the boys were following, one of his brothers waved at him and my youngest thought he meant turn off the piste, (apparently he had not been listening to the instructions about where we were having lunch) though we did not know that at the time. I was bringing up the rear but on busy slopes you can not keep 3 children in your sites every second. (They were supposed to stay in site of us/each other at all times.) It was/is a very easy slope with no reason to fear any drops or any real danger other than maybe a collision. However, when I got to the bottom there was no sign of youngest!
Dad and older two re-traced our steps whilst I waited at the bottom. No sign of him! For the next two hours we searched and searched , asking all the lift operators but nothing! Eventually we realised we needed help but actually did not know what to do! I went to the police whist my husband went to the piste security, leaving the eldest two where we were supposed to have had lunch, just in case. Even that was difficult because they were a bit young to be left in my opinion.
The police shrugged their collective shoulders and said 'it happens all the time' whilst directing me to a lady in the tourist office. Piste security put out a general alert then sent my husband also to the tourist office. The staff there were wonderful. They assured me there had been no incidents/accidents and that my youngest would have gone some where sensible, (again apparently they always do) we just had to work out where!
Cutting a very long story short he eventually turned up at the shop, back in Morzine, where we had hired his and his brothers skis and where we were leaving them each evening. By the time we knew this of course, lifts were long closed, and it meant a seemingly never ending taxi trip back to Morzine to collect a very hungry but basically unhurt youngest son.
We received no bill for the searches conducted by piste security, apparently it is their job to check all pistes before the close of business for stray skiers, adult or child, nor from the tourist office for tying up staff, telephones and radios whilst coordinating the search, and everyone involved was helpful and supportive.
It was a horrible experience, especially for my youngest son who had been very lonely, scared and hungry, and I felt very guilty for a very long time.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
CaravanSkier, at least there was a happy, if hungry, ending, and I assume that in most cases that is what happens.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
From what we were told at the time, I assume that is the case too.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
We picked up a lost boy on a desrter piste in Big White (or Fernie - I forget which), he was about 8 and had no phone or anything. we skied down to the lift together and found his very grateful dad.
It happens with grown ups, I'm not surprised it happens all the time with kids.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
wittenham, what about giving him a walkie talkie or even a cheap phone, he may not know exactly where he is when he gets lost but at least you have half a chance of knowing he's safe and finding him, I always give my eldest a walkie talkie as she likes to go off wondering.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
A very sobering read.
Has anyone established a protocol/briefing/rehearsal for younger skiers? i.e. RVs, who to call, whistles etc?
maybe we could put together a Snowheads best practice????
We lost one of ours, well we did try, but he soon found us again.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This is an important issue for adults in tree well and avalanche terrain, as well as kids in resort. It was highlighted at the recent snow science week in Alaska- there are quite a significant number of deaths (in the adults off piste, not kids, who are getting lost in a relatively speaking monitered and safe environment) that could be prevented by better communication within groups where one person gets separated and ends up in a tree well, or triggering an avalanche etc. The best solution at the moment seems to be walkie talkies, and there's definitely a move for them to be added into the off-piste armoury. I have them for off-piste, but when I'm skiing with the kids in resort I give them one each, as I can imagine how scary it would be (mostly for me!) for one of them to get lost.
With regard to your 9 year old, you know him best and obviously it's your call, but I have to say there's no way I'd let a 9 year old out of my sight in tree-well country, and neither would I let him off-piste without carefully assessing the terrain. Tree wells kill more people than avalanches each year in the US.
With regard to your 9 year old, you know him best and obviously it's your call, but I have to say there's no way I'd let a 9 year old out of my sight in tree-well country, and neither would I let him off-piste without carefully assessing the terrain. Tree wells kill more people than avalanches each year in the US.
QFT
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
this is a good thread.
My eldest son is near 11 and we will be skiing a couple of times this season- he is pretty competent but I don't think I'd let him out of sight very far on piste let alone off or in trees.
Group discipline? "ski to marker 7 over there I'lll follow etc). If it is tricky then I prefer to be at the back with kids so I can see what they are doing- Or if with eldest and middle son - middle in the middle.
A phone. May be with google lattitude or iPhone find my friends (but roaming charges too much). But I don't think a technical fix is the answer.
transciever would just pick up anyone with a beeper- depends where you ski but could be hundreds. (When skiing off piste with son we wear these for habit-even though there is such a thing as only a little bit off piste).
A whistle?
Mobile number on helmet, in clothes, on lift pass, on a sheet with all contacts, home address, resort address, grandparents and insurance. (I do this as a sort of religious rite).
An RV spot.
A sweeper
Easy enough for a family with 1 or 2 adults with 1-3 kids.
Another thing with a big group with friends when discipline might be very variable and when adults may feel a bit inhibited from telling other peoples kids what to do.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Thanks for the replies, I am getting the message on 'try harder' to make sure he is not out of sight [including insisting he work at it too]!
On the ID front, I got one of these for him a number of years ago:
won't stop you getting seperated but may ease the worry and speed up the getting back together if it does happen.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
If you have an Android phone, have a look at the security app Cerberus. As well as various security bits and pieces it allows you to track the location of the phone on their website. it works on signal, not GPS so doesn't need LOS. Get a cheapy android phone, install and pop in their pocket/backpack.
Alternativly there are other monthly chargable GPS trackers available. Lookup Bubble Tracker for example...
That said, I'm not a fan - especially if kids are involved. Switch on a PMR in any European ski resort in you'll continually hear loads of inane chatter, always in English and some of it quite 'unpleasant'. Also, it's yet another thing to remember to pick up in the morning, carry all day without losing and feed with batteries. Also, in the US they use different frequencies so you'll need something else.
IMHO, far better to just have a standard procedure when separated. Also, a pea-less whistle and a code for number of blasts eg. 1:Where are you? 2:Come to me! 3:Emergency!. The last one should be recognised by many.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
altis wrote:
That said, I'm not a fan - especially if kids are involved. Switch on a PMR in any European ski resort in you'll continually hear loads of inane chatter, always in English and some of it quite 'unpleasant'..
That'll be the embarass your mate on the chairlift ahead/behind banter then
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
altis, More seriously in the gadget freakery the humble whistle is overlooked as not techy enough. It remains my number 1 bit of safety kit and I always have one on my zip* but the number of times I get asked what it is for is nuts.
* Apart from the time it was confiscated at a security screening at LHR because it was a terrorist threat - I might blow it on the plane and cause a panic. They couldn't really answer the point as to what was attached to every lifejacket under every seat.
When our son was young we adopted a "getting separated" procedure, which was for him to ski down to the next lift and wait at the bottom. We would find him.
Around the time he was 9 or 10 the inevitable happened. He was skiing with my brother in Courchevel and they got separated coming down from the Saulire. My brother, whom I had forgot to tell the protocol to, phoned me in panic. The rest of the party split up (though vast it is actually quite quick to get across the 3V) and went looking for my son. We found him sitting in a deckchair at the Vizelle restaurant, which was the bottom of the first lift he came to. His first words were "what took you so long"
wittenham, you are probably worrying too much. Children are not as useless as us adults like to think. But stuff your mobile phone number in their pocket just in case they do do the inevitable and ski down to the wrong station at the end of the day or get on the wrong bus. Actually I can think of some adults where that might be equally appropriate advice. CaravanSkier, Your youngest did the right thing; he simply went to the one place he knew you would all eventually go to. Sensible lad.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
But stuff your mobile phone number in their pocket
and to be sure make sure you add the international dialling version (+44, drop the leading 0) ..... (for UK mobiles usually does the trick).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
johnE wrote:
When our son was young we adopted a "getting separated" procedure, which was for him to ski down to the next lift and wait at the bottom. We would find him.
Yep, we have this too. In order of preference
1) Follow any explicitly stated plan.
2) Ski down to bottom of next lift or to next decision point (where pistes diverge). We'll be there.
3) If appropriate spot, stay at/go to last place he saw us/we saw him.
They are not allowed side-of or in-between piste without my explicit permission and knowledge at that moment. Off piste only with their race coaches or instructors. I'm progressively teaching them about avvy terrain/conditions/technique/awareness and will put them through a course sometime in the next couple of years.
They all have ID/contact details, whistle, mobile phone on them and sometimes walkie-talkies.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
wittenham, Frosty the Snowman,
However, it isn't always the kids you have to worry about.
It's the mothers.
Picture the scene, mid-April, Chamonix 2011. Two families on holiday with 6 children; 3 of them skiing with adults, 1 in ski school and two toddlers. Mothers and fathers -one day on - one day off skiing- toddler care.
The dads, after a morning in the playground near ENSA and a little coffee, pick up the ski school child, have the packed lunch and walk along the valley to Flegere for some more sun and then perhaps a beer at the Hotel Eden. The two and three year old toddlers toddling in the Spring sunshine, Boden trousers and tops- then falling gently asleep in their pushchairs, Mountain Buggy.
The mothers; the mothers.
The mothers with the, much longed for and cherished children. The eldest son, my first born, my son and heir, aged nine. The twins. Golden haired Zwillinge, a boy and a girl, eight. The weather. The weather had been unseasonably warm. The snows had melted, Flegere and le Tour were closed, Brevent closed but for the green run open for the ski schools. So there was just one place to go. Argentiere. Argentiere, the best lift in the world? Not quite. There's la Grave and the Aiguille. But not far from it. The runs were still reasonable and so they should have been. Bochard offered it's usual and lengthy charms, the pistes above Jordan were open, but not the restaurant. Pierre a Ric may have been open, but closed later in the week. So where to go? Argentiere, Plan Jordan, top-ticket, Grands Montets. Les Grands Montets- where Glen Plake and Scott Schmidt hurl themselves from a gantry to a Frankies soundtrack in the multi-coloured, fartbagged, rear entry, pastel lip-balmed world of the 1980's Blizzard of Aaah's (then VHS or Betamax but now only youTube http://youtube.com/v/07mJC0CZESk ). Well - ok they didn't do that- that would have been silly with Two Tribes of children, albeit one with AHB - 'All His Badges' and the others with TS 'Two Stars'. No , no extreme ski movie that day, just Point de Vue. Point de Vue, a piste just like any other. Start 3295m. Finish 1972m. Unpisted, North facing, cold, steep. Big bumps. Hard snow, soft snow, crud, powder, ice. No easy option. One option- Pylons no easier. Flat light. No death cookies though. Magnificent views, les Courtes, the Verte, Mont Dolent, Chardonnay, Aid D'Argentiere, the ice, the glaciers, the crevasses. The best piste in the world? So out of the bin after wondering "who are all those smelly people with the big bags and spikes?" Down the stairs and past the cafe, down the steps to the col. "Windy!" On with gloves and masks and skis and poles.
The crowd disperses to three points of the compass. And the're off. Mrs Ed leads, Ed Jnr follows. Then twins, boy first and strong then girl slowly and a little nervous then friend's mum. Sideslip down the steep ice to the first steep and icy bumps, the bit that catches the fat middle aged English men in faded and shrinking to misfit jackets. No problems. Fantastic. Across and left, softer and deeper now, cut up, tricky. The piste narrows and a rope appears below with a warning "CREVASSES DANGER DE MORT " complete with a little asexual pictogram falling, inverted, to a cold, lonely and joy(of sex)less death. Then, a fall, a shout. A pink ski shoots past, under the rope down towards the glacier. OH! Alone! No one else about. OK then......Mrs Ed skis down with boys to mid station. Mother and child remain. Noone passes apart from one ESF group. 'You should noot 'ave 'er up 'ere" is the helpful contribution. The pisteurs understand and after a "poff" of surprise that an English mum and eight year old girl should be such a pickle, are helpful. Boy's skis are taken off just in case and the pisteurs set off, not for an extreme rescue but for damsels in distress. Soon enough they find the pair, now cold and a little lonely, but at least not needing a pee. One ducks under the rope onto the glacier. After a minute of two he reappears, pink ski in hand. Mum and daughter ski Point de Vue, no falls and then mobile phones. "Emma's ski fell off and went under the rope- off piste."
Up there off-piste really is off-piste. Glaciers, chasms to make Gandalf sweat. No messing. No "it was just a bit off piste" this is where they didn't open the run for ages because there was a piste basher eating crevasses right across the piste, the only piste. Anyway, "No harm done, all safe and sound, could have happened to anyone."
That evening Emma pipes up. "I fell over, my mummy stopped and got my ski and then threw it at me and I didn't catch it- it went down the mountain!" Emma's mum smiles and say's nothing. Nothing at all.
I just thank all the Gods I don't believe in that it wasn't me.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 2-11-12 22:22; edited 1 time in total
ed123, Have to say I agree with the ESF bloke. what would have been so terrible about a day on the ice rink?
I found a lost child once, spreadeagled, middle of the piste in Valmeinier. Quite a few people about. He was about 5. I picked him up and did that leg dangling trick, to untie the knots. He looked completely lost. I tried all the languages I knew 6 words of. He either didn't speak French, English, Italian or Serbo-Croat or he'd wet his pants and didn't want to tell me that.
So I stood there, looking around, trying to smile reassuringly at him without terrifying him with any more foreign languages. Waited for quite a while. Nobody appeared to be looking for him, or have missed him. I figured that leaving him exactly where he was was more sensible than taking him anywhere else, and he seemed composed, so I skied uncertainly off.
I once did a heroic sea rescue of two children being swept to a certain death clinging to a Lilo in a strong offshore wind in Aruba.
Got them back to the beach, ready to modestly brush off the stammering thanks of the desperate parents. Nothing. Nobody. Poor little sods. They spoke Spanish - and said thanks!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I'm only posting because I'd like to see how this thread turns out.
I have a 6m old daughter who is about to go on her first ski trip (tough luck if she doesn't like it as it's practically the only type of holiday she will get until she earns enough to go somewhere else). Whilst this isn't an immediate concern I really never thought about it. Now I have thank you!!
I've had similar problems with mates who are big enough to know better who seem to get into similar binds. I think you can buy an emergency personal GPS beacon, much cheaper than one of those stupid helicopter rescue watches (starts with a b).
I am just hoping by the time little em is old enough we have cctv all over the slopes, gps tracking, speed and HELMETS ARE COMPULSORY????!!!
I'm only posting because I'd like to see how this thread turns out.
I have a 6m old daughter who is about to go on her first ski trip (tough luck if she doesn't like it as it's practically the only type of holiday she will get until she earns enough to go somewhere else). Whilst this isn't an immediate concern I really never thought about it. Now I have thank you!!
I've had similar problems with mates who are big enough to know better who seem to get into similar binds. I think you can buy an emergency personal GPS beacon, much cheaper than one of those stupid helicopter rescue watches (starts with a b).
I am just hoping by the time little em is old enough we have cctv all over the slopes, gps tracking, speed and HELMETS ARE COMPULSORY????!!!
oh no, hes only gone and mentioned helmets!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
ansta1 wrote:
oh no, hes only gone and mentioned helmets!
On the subject of helmets, but then again ...............
After all it is free
After all it is free
Mt, I suggest it will be up to you whether or not a helmet is compulsory for your child.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Someone up there mentioned a hungry kid.
Apart from when I was very very little and either in ski school or a cafe (lol) I have always carried lunch money, emergency money, and some fun size mars bars/ fruit pastilles. Kinder bars a favourite too.
And my parents always drilled it into me that I should always make sure I had a few in my bumbag (those were the days....) that I could eat if something happened.
I assumed everyone did that... Every ski jacket has enough pockets for a five euro note and some fruit pastilles.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I've had mine on skis since they were about 3 years old and I couldn't ski, so I will tell you what I have done so far, though much of the above advice is similar. Mine will be 10 and 13 the next time they ski in resort.
Each child has laminated info in their pockets - the language they speak, where they are staying, our mobile numbers, UK landline numbers of my parents (for use only in the direst of emergencies!).
Since they could use one each child has a mobile pre-programmed with all the necessary numbers in international format, but also awareness of the fact that they might not always work. We have tried walki talkies, but these are more bulky and it's difficult to wear the earpieces under helmets. Phone's work better for us.
Child carries 10E note to get themselves a hot drink from a cafe if they are lost and cold. Each child also carries a choccy bar in their pocket and a set of iron filings hand warmers. They also wear their Dog Tags which allow all their details to be looked up online.
We spend time now they are old enough explaining the layout of the resort and place piste maps in their pockets - they are now much better at knowing how to use these.
We used to sandwich them - adult, child, child, adult. Now we take turns at the front, and they are sent down the mountain a certain number of piste markers/snow canons/obvious landmark and told they must stop there sensibly at the side of the piste. The punishment for non-compliance being removal of the going first pivilage.
We don't ski off piste, but they like a chance to jump of the piste edge esp. in areas that are already well run. We deal with this by one of us skiing down until we can see the area to be skied. If it looks doable, we wave a pole and they go down together. Once they are down the other adult skis down on piste. Of course any little exciting excursion like this for them is visibility dependant.
Finally, they know that if they behave themselves and don't complain about being too bored that I will book them 2 X 2 hr sessions with a private instructor to take them off to more exciting areas - if they can't comply with my on-piste rules then they know I will cancel the instructor.
We have managed to make the above work even in busy places like Val Thorens at Easter!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
