 Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, OK, thanks. I'd call that the point where I'm balanced. Never heard it called mass insertion point, other than by you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, I live but to screw with your mind 
Your balance point and your Mass IP are the same while static . . . they can and do change significantly when you are moving over your skis. Example, when you have to weight your tails to keep the tips up in heavy powder. Your MIP is behind your heels and you're using body position to keep it there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| Your MIP is behind your heels and you're using body position to keep it there. |
In what way is the MIP different to the point where you are balanced on your skis?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, balance is not having tension. In the case of needing to maintain a pressure into the ski then you use muscles in tension to maintain that, you are not balanced. You would be balanced if the skis had enough tip rise (rocker) to allow you to be centered, neutral and relaxed over the skis as they slide. It's a significant difference between your balance and the machine in equilibrium that you AND your skis make.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, sorry, I've been up since 4am so must be a bit tired because I didn't understand that. I stand on my skis and the skis are pushed against the ground. This happens when I'm stationary and when I'm moving, regardless of whether my muscles are in tension. If my centre of mass is lined up with my feet, taking in to account whatever forces are being generated, then I'm in balance. Isn't is that simple?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, take a break . . . and think about it tomorrow or next time you slide.
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| Masque wrote: |
rob@rar, I live but to screw with your mind
Your balance point and your Mass IP are the same while static . . . they can and do change significantly when you are moving over your skis. Example, when you have to weight your tails to keep the tips up in heavy powder. Your MIP is behind your heels and you're using body position to keep it there. |
Apart from not weighting your tails in powder (for another discussion....) but if I wanted to weight my tails, I'd move back in my boot, if I took it to an extreme, I'd feel the back of the boot on my calf. If I wanted to load the front of my skis, I'd move forwards in my boot, shins pressing into the front.
Same thing??
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, take a break . . . and think about it tomorrow or next time you slide. |
I've been working on it all week, under the supervision of a great coach, and made positive changes to my skiing as a result without once getting confused, which I so often am when I read your thoughts on this. Thanks for the suggestion to think about it tomorrow, but I believe I understand it well enough to use it for real when skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kitenski, by applying pressure to your cuff? Yes. you are moving where the force generated by gravity on your body goes through the ski into the snow.
It's like tying a plumb-weight to yer nads, if you are not clipped into your skis there's a limit to how far you can move and keep it hanging down straight. That's the envelope of movement that contains your balance. Once you clip in you can use the leverage against your skis to extend that envelope. You are not in balance, you are in tension. You and the skis are in equilibrium and the plumb-bob shows where those forces are concentrated outside your balance. Because of boot flex you can keep that larger envelope of force while still staying balanced on your feet. You are using a vertical downforce onto the lever of your boots to move the pressure point forward along the ski. You are in balance and the tension is now supported in and through your boot. (just like wot us boarders do)
Telemarkers do this too but here it's the tension in the binding spring that does this. That's why NTN is so popular with carving skis. The bindings are very active and start to exert pressure from almost the moment you lift your heel.
I think I'm reading that Rob experienced skiing within a much smaller range of fore/aft body movement over his skis and felt a big difference.
And yes if I end up in front of a BASI instructor . . . including any of you lot . . . I'll keep it zipped 
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Oh poo-poo!....
Masque, I think I sort of see where you are coming from...
Skier A, keeps in perfect balance and can freely flex/extend using, ankles, knees, hips without deliberately keeping any tension on these joints but specifically no tension in the waist/hips/lower midriff, he can deeply flex down without pressing on his boot cuffs and stay balanced through the middle of his feet, but to do it his hips need go back, to counteract this he throws his upper body, head shoulders & arms fwd...he is now back in perfect balance over the middle of his feet, without any pressure on his cuffs, he can do this with varying degrees of flex/extension. Maybe not a very powerful or comfortable position to ski in. He has lost the ability to use his upper body as a lever.
Skier B, keeps the feel of perfect balance through the middle of his feet, he also flexes his joints to stay in balance but, he doesn't break so freely at the waist, he holds and varies a little tension in his midriff, which in turn allows him to engage his upper body as a lever to vary the pressure through his boot cuffs, he is still able to feel in balance on his feet, but can also keeps his hips fwd without feeling the need to throw the upper body fwd.
Takes cover! 
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 19-01-13 23:25; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
It's like tying a plumb-weight to yer nads
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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How strange.................I've taken off the Skia things after a session. It's been a week or so since I last played with them. Today I was conscious of trying to adopt a good position over them. During the session although I was balanced on the red blocks from a weight forward and weight behind perspective, it suddenly dawned on me that I didn't have equal weight on both feet and that I had more weight over the left than the right foot. In other words if I had been doing this
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It's like tying a plumb-weight to yer nads
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Assuming I had a set!!! The plumb weight would not have been hanging straight from the perspective of the pressure, but I think it would have been hanging straight from my stance. In other words I think you can stand square, but have an unequal distribution of pressure over each foot. However, the distribution of weight left and right did seem important, so once I realised this I made a bigger effort to equalise the weight over each foot.
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You know it makes sense.
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Masque, I did try...with my "cup empty!"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
| I think I'm reading that Rob experienced skiing within a much smaller range of fore/aft body movement over his skis and felt a big difference. |
Not so much a smaller range of movement, but focusing on a different balance point at the beginning of the turn. A subtle difference (moving my balance back along the foot by about 4cm and keeping it there) allowed me to use the skis more effectively in the middle (load) phase of the turn when carving short and medium radius turns. I think I had developed a movement over the years where I loaded the front of the ski at the start of the turn, and by playing around at very low speeds discovered that I skied more effectively if I balanced on the middle of my foot in all phases of the turn.
Masque, from a teaching point of view I made this change by my coach setting a task of about 15 turns with a small plough and asking me one question with one follow up: "where along your foot are you standing?" followed by "does this stay the same all the way through the turn?". We had a brief evaluation of this information to help understand why I wasn't getting the level of grip I wanted in the load phase of my carved turns. Once we had a clearer idea of what was going on I took that focus on the balance point at the start of the turn into my carved long and medium radius turns to develop my performance. At no point did we have a complex technical discussion or lecture about biomechanics. The only information I needed was "where am I standing". Any more than that one focus and the whole teaching session would have failed. If you do a BASI course your trainer will expect you to demonstrate a TIED model of analysis and development: task, information, evaluation and development. This is a good example of how that can be a simple but powerful way of developing ski skills.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, Thank you, I understand. I seem to have come to the same thing through experimentation and self evaluation. I stay very mid foot balanced through my turns but use flex, boot pressure and still reasonable muscle responses to keep my edge grip and can adjust that freely through all phases of the turn. I agree that in a real world experience we wouldn't delve into it like this but here we are talking about how and why, not teach.
Have you modified you balance point by your overall stance or just in your hip position over your feet? That IS part of the bio-mechanics in how you move your balance point and should be part of this discussion. On the hill you would just show it, here we have to describe it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| I agree that in a real world experience we wouldn't delve into it like this but here we are talking about how and why, not teach. |
I don't like to delve in to the how and why. That's when you end up with the abomination of a thread that was Inner Tip Lead. Any question asked about the how and why is best answered by directing the enquirer to this book.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| Have you modified you balance point by your overall stance or just in your hip position over your feet? That IS part of the bio-mechanics in how you move your balance point and should be part of this discussion. On the hill you would just show it, here we have to describe it. |
I neither know nor care. I can feel where my balance point is and I wanted to change it, so that's what I did. My body sorted all the rest of the stuff out and I skied naturally. If you start to analyse individual parts of your body, how they move, where they move, when they move, and what they respond to you will kill your ability to ski with any sort of flow. There is hundreds of thousands of years of evolution which makes us good at movement and dynamic balance. I really don't want to get in the way of my body using that capacity, nor do I want to get in the way of any of my students using that natural capacity.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, I've started to work with Scott, in the last couple of clinics, of getting my weight more on to the middle of my foot, so tomorrow's session will be timely. IF, that is, I can get there. It's not looking good at my end: I live on a steep hill and I'm not going anywhere by car just at the moment (it was OK for most of yesterday) don't know what the hill up to Hemel might be like. Really annoying - would be so good to get your words of wisdom before carving the captivating cruisiness of the Dolomites!
[Sorry for slight thread de-rail.]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, balance is not having tension. |
Absolute rubbish. If you have no tension in [appropriate] muscles, you are just a floppy heap on the floor. If you don't tense your muscles at appropriate points in a bumps run then you are no different to a bag of spuds being bounced around.
What Masque is doing is redefining words to make things sound more complicated than they are. Being in balance is when you make the muscle movements to get your body in the right place for whatever you are trying to achieve with the minimum of extraneous movements/muscular-activity. When Louis Smith holds a position where his body's flat a few inches above the pommel horse (no doubt there's some official name for this) he's definitely in balance, but there's one hell of a lot of tension in his arms to hold it! If your objective is to load the very front of your skis (for whatever reason), then the tension you'll have in your body to hold that position is entirely necessary, and to stay balanced in that position is entirely possible.
What Masque is confusing here (and I've heard the confusion from plenty of others as well) is balance and posture. Balance is making sure that you're making only the movements necessary to achieve the objective; using appropriate posture allows refining those movements to make use of our skeleton to our advantage and reduce the amount that has to be done by muscular activity. By using appropriate posture we can achieve certain objectives (which would not require changes in the "Mass Insertion Point") in more efficient ways.
Carrying on with the example, whether that (e.g. front loading) is the optimal tactic for making particular skiing manoeuvre is nothing to do with being balanced or not, and is a completely different discussion (which Rob had with his coach). In Rob's example he talks about moving his balance point back; he's balanced in both cases, but it's just over a different point, and muscles will be tensed differently to maintain those different balance points. Where this also comes into a discussion on balance is if you decide that front-loading is not a good thing, and keeping a centred position is (and there are different scenarios where each answer is the right one), then if you drift forward when you don't intend to is a loss of balance - you are making an unintended movement which you will later have to correct.
I've also never heard of Mass Insertion Point other than in Masque's posts - but it has some validity as focussing where you feel the main pressure between skis and snow. It does sound unduly jargon-ish, and so would only provoke just the kind of discussion we are having here (and plenty of discussion about the difference between mass, weight and force, and probably pressure thrown into the mix), so would be avoided at all cost.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
rob@rar, I've started to work with Scott, in the last couple of clinics, of getting my weight more on to the middle of my foot, so tomorrow's session will be timely. IF, that is, I can get there. It's not looking good at my end: I live on a steep hill and I'm not going anywhere by car just at the moment (it was OK for most of yesterday) don't know what the hill up to Hemel might be like. Really annoying - would be so good to get your words of wisdom before carving the captivating cruisiness of the Dolomites!
[Sorry for slight thread de-rail.] |
No worries of we have to find another date. It's been snowing here (in Hampton) solidly for the three or four hours, and I guess the same or worse in Hemel. I'm due to be there this afternoon so will report back on road conditions, but if it's bad at your end of the journey just let me know and will reschedule.
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| Masque wrote: |
A lot of us lesser mortals cannot
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| I neither know nor care. I can feel where my balance point is and I wanted to change it, so that's what I did. My body sorted all the rest of the stuff out and I skied naturally |
do this. |
I don't believe that. What I see is skiers making unnecessary movements which get in their way of their natural ability to move in balance. Fix the inappropriate movement and suddenly they are balanced.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
. . . as for subtle adjustment  |
As you get better you will discover more capacity for subtle adjustment. Until you reach that point making not so subtle adjustments is perfectly good enough.
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rob@rar, OK, Rob, thanks - we'll exchange emails or summat, this evening. Perhaps I should shell out on winter tyres if this sort of weather is going to become habitual...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, balance is not having tension. |
I would call this being stacked (sorry, prob an Americanism!), where you are in balance with no effort from muscles - your skeleton is holding you up. Staying 'stacked' whilst moving over unpredictable terrain, be it on skis, a surf board, a horse or whatever, will require constant corrections from muscles. As long as these are just corrections, you are still 'stacked', but if your muscles have to maintain tension (maybe because you are leaning backwards) then you are no longer stacked, but are still balanced provided you can hold this position as long as you need.
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Masque, I can see where all this MIP would work/be necessary for trampoling (I think you said), but I do think you are over complicating and will suffer from brain explosion if you follow the BASI L1 and L2 courses....I found them stressful enough working on basic points like posture, balance, edge angle etc etc!!
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN, no redefinition just old ones I was taught to use. Jargon changes with time and egos. Louis Smith is in equilibrium on (or over) a balance point . . . we can argue semantics all day. But 'posture' plays a significant role in balance . . . for the human body in balance, it is as I recall when standing, requiring the least amount of muscular input to stay upright (or stacked if you prefer). . . same applies when sitting or laying down (though perhaps that's a bit extreme). When you are moving you are never technically in balance, you make constant adjustments to stay in equilibrium along a path or over a 'balance point' and that can be significantly different from where you are pressuring your skis or board. . . again probably semantics.
The instructors here talk about extraneous movement and adjusting their balance point . . . that's fine but how did he do that because you can achieve that by numerous means and some are certainly not desired . . . the "position anglais" for one.
In Benzewhatsits we want to know what " unnecessary movements" are and help in understanding what our natural balance is. While 'inner tip lead' is infamous . . . it did what a forum is here to do . . . entertain, inform and enrage. I'm asking you to talk about things YOU do naturally and with trained response. As for 'Natural Balance' yes everybody has one but it certainly is an individual thing and has a dam good chance of restricting skiing or any other sport for that matter. As an example I had a young girl with scoliosis who wanted to learn to tumble, she had a natural balance that changed her flight and rotation characteristics. We worked on it with her physio and with a modified back brace she became a good gymnast but she never felt or even was in her natural balance.
I'm sorry if I irritate some of you, but you often seem to make assumptions about our skill and knowledge . . . like knowing where our 'natural balance' is or how to get there in the first place. Rob returned to basics this week in working with his snowplow . . . we've read about many people having issues with theirs. I don't recall any of you running through the steps to achieving a good one . . . yet Rob's said that working on his allowed him to improve his skills . . . how many of us can actually perform a decent plow or learn anything from it? We can't all go to Hemel and getting even more to read a book (with pictures) is a lost cause.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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kitenski, Yes I do understand that I will have to 'zippit' if I go down that route . . . but this is BzN . . . different arena.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Masque wrote: |
| The instructors here talk about extraneous movement and adjusting their balance point . . . that's fine but how did he do that because you can achieve that by numerous means and some are certainly not desired |
So perhaps it's best to do it naturally by focusing on an outcome (eg stand so the balance point is the middle of your foot) rather than a long list of complicated inputs (such as what muscles are in tension, how to rotate your pelvis, what degree of separation one needs, etc)? If they instinctively crouch to an unbalanced position then you can correct that, but using terrain suitable for the exercise that is less likely to happen.
| Masque wrote: |
| In Benzewhatsits we want to know what " unnecessary movements" are and help in understanding what our natural balance is. |
Excellent! Lots of people including myself are happy to chip in with a suggestion if a question is asked or a video is posted.
| Masque wrote: |
| While 'inner tip lead' is infamous . . . it did what a forum is here to do . . . entertain, inform and enrage. |
I don't think it did any of those things for the majority of readers of the forum. Even I stopped reading that thread when it reached n+ad nauseum pages.
| Masque wrote: |
| As for 'Natural Balance' yes everybody has one but it certainly is an individual thing and has a dam good chance of restricting skiing or any other sport for that matter. |
Exactly right, which is why focusing on prescriptive body movements in eye-watering detail is exactly the wrong way to go about things. Focus on the outcomes you are trying to achieve and see what the key things which are stopping that from happening is a much better way to approach skill development. People will look and ski in their own way, and providing they are achieving good outcomes why should we care what position they hold their body?
| Masque wrote: |
| Rob returned to basics this week in working with his snowplow . . . we've read about many people having issues with theirs. I don't recall any of you running through the steps to achieving a good one . . . yet Rob's said that working on his allowed him to improve his skills . . . how many of us can actually perform a decent plow or learn anything from it? We can't all go to Hemel and getting even more to read a book (with pictures) is a lost cause. |
Skiing slowly presents challenges and opportunities. That's the whole point of this thread. The reason I started it is that I'd just taught a successful clinic in which we had explored how skiing slowly can help us improve our performance skiing. I wanted to discuss whether skiing slowly can be helpful and challenging to experienced skiers. I think it can be helpful and challenging, even though that will be counter-intuitive to many. The reason I revisited this thread is because I've just been through the same process, but as a learner rather than a teacher and found it a powerful experience.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, I'll pause for thought and other opinions on that . . . I agree that very slow drills are a test and can be fun. I saw a snowboard instructor using Mars bars as gates for kids to practice slow falling-leafs with. As each child slid past the first chocolate he had to pick it up and add it to the end of the line to keep the test going on down the hill. A test of edge control/balance/speed with a built in reward at the end. Used the same thing with the adults learning to carve accurately but using booze miniatures. (don't know if they were full).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
I watched 2 of the local Tignes girls practicing their slalom technique this morning on a very gentel slope. 1 course was stubbies, 1 course had gates, they did both with and without poles. Their coach only wanted to know what they were feeling on different runs.
Their standard  1 is in the French WC team the other is French EC team.
So as previously noted get the basics right and you can improve drastically |
Getting the basics right obviously works http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=AL&raceid=72889
Tiff was one of the girls practicing on Saturday morning and achived her best GS result today.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stewart woodward, good for her. It shows what intelligent coaching and dedication can achieve. I always find it a real pleasure to watch the young racers training on the Grand Motte pre-season.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I always find it a real pleasure to watch the young racers training on the Grand Motte pre-season. |
I just wish i was half as good as the young Club de Sport racers 
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FAQ
getting there. It's difficult to find a way to explain body dynamics in a sport that I'm not qualified for but the way a body performs in motion is one and the same whatever the sport, fundamentals in the bio-mechanics are the same. It is so much easier to show than tell. That and our sport seems to be in the middle of some updating in technique, driven by changes in equipment. I ski like I board, very minimal input for maximum effect and control of the tool leading with my hips . . . I also taught a lot of aerobics so the separation of 
managed to break myself of that one.
I recovered, and realised that a few weeks earlier, I'd have crashed. My new wider and stiffer skis caught edges several times when I first went out on them this season and each time I recovered. My brain knew what to do - I didn't have to think about it. As long as the people teaching us understand the principles and can guide us in the right way, we "lesser mortals" probably don't have to do too much ratiocination. 