Advice on gaining instructor qualifications UPDATE

A snowHead

UPDATED, SEE LATEST POST FOR DETAILS.

Hi guys, relatively new user here (At least in terms of knowledge). I've been skiing once before in Austria for a week, took to it like a duck to water and was really inspired, then came home and realised I was a young teen with no money to follow the sport. Fast forward four years and I'm an outdoor student, racing mountain bikes and working towards becoming a mountain bike guide (Hopefully in the French Alps) - inherently a summer based job. It was whilst contemplating this that I noticed that the Uni has a ski club, and after a little research was starting to remember that fantastic feeling that skiing gave me and thinking about how I could turn it into a part of my life.

So, my question to you guys is this: I have three years left on my Uni course - with careful saving to fund as much skiing as possible, is it a realistic target to be a good enough skier to then do a season in the Alps learning to be an instructor? I understand that it is something I will have to work damn hard to achieve, but I have the determination, along with the physical fitness from mountain bike racing. I am already semi-fluent in french and am working hard to become acceptably fluent.

Give me your honest opinions, I don't want to delude myself if it is not realistic. Thanks Smile

A snowHead

rasmanisar, Welcome t o snowheads. I suspect the answer will be yes, depending on the level of qualification you are looking at. Others will be along soon, but you might think about editing the title of the thread to be a bit more specific to your question to attract folk who can advise.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

If you ski a lot in the next 3 years, and take lessons then yes it is extremely realistic to aim to for the BASI L2, whereby you will be able to teach in a number of countries worldwide, if you want to check the level required BASI have a youtube page with videos of what you need for each level. I think they have instructor assessment nights in hemel snowdome to see what you need to do pre exam. If you are at the level, dont waste money on expensive gap courses, the BASI exams are development courses in themselves and you will be told what you need to work on.

Language ability is king in the ski instruction market. Keep on with your french!

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Yes, very doable to become an instructor in that time frame.

Becoming a fully qualified instructor is another matter though, not impossible (your mtb background will help), but expect that process to be longer, harder and more costly than your degree. Involves very high level racing ability. Not that you neccessarily need to get fully qualified (though actually, France might be the one place you would), you can get plenty of work with BASI level 2 or 3 (or equivalent form whatever country - this is an achievable level), though wages won't be so good (not too much of a problem if you make most of your money biking in the summer).

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Yes, it's possible. I'd find out if there's a ski club at your local slope. I qualified as an instructor through that and as it is partly for the club's benefit the instructor training is very cheap.

You'll need to Register first of course.

It's worth considering which Country you wish to work in.

Each has it's own regs...although most recognise each others to some degree.

Remember it's not just about your ability to Ski. Are you a good communicator?

You have to be able to teach and talk in a way that is understandable, precise and clear.

You also have to be able to perform the various drills in a way students understand.

I qualified doing a season long course. It was tough work, hard skiing all day and mock Instructor lessons as well as working with the Ski school for experience.

I would thoroughly recommend doing a season course.

Not only do you get thorough education, you also get to see how a ski school works, how a mountain resort works and how to deal with the public... and partake in Lessons.

Trust me...it's not easy. But it's worth it...

Continue learning French...as you will be able to find work in parts of Switzerland.
It's really, really hard to get into France. You have to be poo-poo hot... even if for an English company.

I recommend going on the various Ski Associations websites and watching video of the standard they require.

This also might help...

C & P'd

France

You have little chance to work in a French ski school, unless you have the French qualification. You can work in foreign skischools (i.e. British skischool in France) – mostly they will only accept ISIA qualified instructors or a Level 2 with the french test technique.

The French ski instructor association has only one level and this is very high. You should have race experience and be a high level skier; otherwise you have no chance passing these exams or even be allowed to take the test.

Finally, this road to instructing comes at a huge finacial cost and sees you no further forward than someone who maid half the investment.

Switzerland

You can only work in a Swiss ski school, if you have a Swiss qualification or the ISIA license. The first qualification is not so difficult but it helps if you speak one of their languages. Also the difficulty is to get a work permit in Switzerland, this means paperwork and applying early.

Italy

Similar to France, standard is a bit lower and they are far more open to foriegn qualifications.

Austria

Once more they will mostly only recognise their own qualifications, however it is possible to work on a part-time basis when holding other qualifications as they do not have enough Instructors at peak times so are happy then to accept other qualifications. If you hold an ISIA qualification it is possible to gain an equivalence if you can speak basic German and hold a full high level ISIA.

USA

They recognize a lot of the ISIA countries equally, the only down side to the States is, you need a VISA to work and recently this has become a hit and miss possibility. Many Instructors are begging to work in Europe as their applications have been rejected. The only problem is that their American qualification (PSIA) leaves them at the bottom of the list of job seekers.

Canada

The same as the USA

New Zealand

Recognizes almost every qualification. Main difficulty in New Zealand is, there are only so many jobs available and not always enough work, also the season is short. You also need to apply for a visa and work permit. So apply early!

Australia

Same as above

Conclusion

Choose a qualification of the country where you would like to work. Gain some work experience and try to do the next level examination before working elsewhere. Other skills & experience, such as language skills, work experience with children etc. are very helpful in getting a job.

Don’t be scared to do a qualification in a foreign country. The above is the general attitude of these countries and there are many instructors who have managed to get a job in a different country from where they gained a qualification (which can be 1st level) by simply applying early, having actual work experience under their belt and speaking the native or other useful languages. Often it depends on a ski school, regardless of whatever country.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Thanks for the advice guys, it's good to know that the dream can live! And also great to know that I still have a chance to become fully qualified. Time and cost are something I see as a necessity to get me where I want to be, at the end of the day it is my future I'm committing too so definitely worth the effort and price. I can see I'll have to do some serious reading on qualifications and what is needed for each country, especially on these BASI's. I'll also check if my local slope has a ski club, discounted training would be an excellent help. As for the languages, I'm focussing on French at the moment but I intend to try and learn German too if possible, as that would broaden my employability Very Happy

My sister is fluent in German and relatively fluent in French so I will be able to practice with her.

As for the racing ability, that is a possibility. I know what it takes to race from mountain biking, so I can definitely consider it. I'm not going to run before I can walk though so I'm going to focus for now on gaining an intermediate/advanced level of skiing ability and then see where I can take it from there. Thanks for the advice, and any more is more than welcome! I've no doubt I'll be sticking around and asking plenty more questions on gear etc Cool

After all it is free

Wow, thanks spud. That is a wealth of information! I'll have to have a good look through and see which country I think would be best for me to start in. Looks like Austria would be a good bet, which means learning the German would be a seriously good idea.

spud, Are you sure on the Swiss? You'll find English schools in Zermatt and I think Verbier take on BASI L2's. ie http://www.summitskischool.com/pages/team.html

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Getting in on one of these english schools seems like a good idea, then I can do the native qualifications whilst working there? Am I correct in this summation?

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spud, "The" Swiss Ski School. I think they have have some BASI's (not sure which level) in Laax.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

spud, Austria - many ski schools accept qualifications from other countries, including BASI and CSIA. It's all down to the ski school director and the demand in resort.

A snowHead

A snowHead

spud, Where did you copy and paste that info from? A lot of it is factually incorrect.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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spud wrote

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

spud, where did you c&p that from? Lots of inaccuracies in my view.

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slikedges, I agree, a lot of that doesn't sound right, especially Canada being the same as the states.

OP, you can definitely get good enough in that time to start an instructing career. I was in a very similar boat to you at the start of Uni, and I now make a good living as a year round instructor and have taught for 12 seasons. Lots of ways to do it, if you are already a bike guide whistler would be a great place to start, a working holiday visa for Canada is simple to get. Maybe get Basi 1 in a dome before you go, almost certainly get a job. No need to pay for expensive gap courses, those courses are however awesome fun if you can afford them.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

quinton, in Salzburgerland you will have to prove that you have sufficient German for safety reasons alone if nothing else. They offer an intensive German course for those with none or very low-level. The most common reason for not being awarded Anwärter status is insufficient knowledge of German.

After all it is free

Haha yes, I feel like I've opened a can of worms here! Thanks again for the advice guys.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

rasmanisar,

Some quick and dirty facts:

In Europe fully qualified means getting top level qualified in one of the Euro pro cartel FEMPS countries. There are a lot of them and the number of countries selling out to them in order for their grandees to gain the exclusivity rights by default is rising all the time. Fully qualified means you can theoretically set up on your own or work for anyone you like unrestricted anywhere. Getting fully qualified properly through the system is tough. Very tough. And expensive and time consuming. You'd have to pretty much dedicate yourself to it for a fair while. It's not something you'd do as a sideline. Getting fully qualified outside Europe won't cut the ice in a FEMPS country. Not even CSIA IV.

In France you can't teach unless you are fully qualified or you are an official trainee. To be accepted as an official trainee you need BASI Level 2 or CSIA II or equivalent with Test Technique which is a timed slalom where as a bloke you'd need to achieve within 20% of a roughly 50 FIS point skier's time. That's a tall order unless you are a racer, were a child racer or have spent a significant period of time and money doing dedicated training towards it.

In Italy you can teach for limited periods with as little as a BASI Level 2 or CSIA II or equivalent, but there are lots of regional variations

In Austria you can teach with a BASI L2 or CSIA II or equivalent, or even a BASI L1 if you know the right people (yes I know you wouldn't be covered by BASI itself for that), and there are lots of regional variations

In Switzerland you can teach with a BASI L2 or CSIA II or equivalent, or even without any qualifications at all if you know the right people, though these days you're also supposed to have done a not insignificant amount of skiing CPD per year (?5 days - I forget)

In parts of Scandinavia you can teach with a BASI L2 or CSIA II or equivalent, or even without any qualifications at all if you know the right people

In US and Canada you can teach with a BASI L2 or CSIA II or equivalent. If you can get a visa.

I don't know anything about teaching in Japan or the Antipodes other than stuff I've read on this site.

Languages are helpful but don't preclude you getting a job.

If you are low level qualified (BASI L2 or CSIA II or equivalent) you'll be very lucky to make much more than just covering your expenses. To have a fighting chance of making a real living you need to aim to get fully qualified. Some exceptions have succeeded but ime these guys either have particular talents in other departments or have been lucky.

All e&oe, ymmv, imho etc etc

PS or you can get IVSI and bring your own groups out to wherever

snow reports

clarky999, unlike Tirol, you will not be accepted on an Salzburg course unless you are sponsored by a ski school. Plus you will not be awarded your Anwärter until you pass the proficiency in German course they provide. You got round that by having done yours in Tirol and a track record the Saalbach people could check.

rasmanisar, the web site for the Salzburg ski instructors association is here: http://www.sbssv.at/en/welcome

Dunno how well recognised the Anwarter is outside of Europe or even some parts of Europe outside the Germanic lands.

You know it makes sense.

Samerberg Sue,

To pass the Anwärter, one needs German language skills - agreed, as the course is in German.

But, as clarky999 and I are pointing out, it is perfectly possible to work in some of the larger Austrian resorts, including those in Salzburgerland, without any knowledge of German at all. Go to Saalbach and you'll find a bunch of guys with BASI and CSIA certs working at the two large schools who perhaps have less than 10 words of German between them. There are also many Bulgarians, who have limited or no German but can teach in English and, most importantly, in Russian. Whether or not this complies with local regulations is a moot point - the schools cater for an international market and therefore employ instructors who can teach in a language that their guests can understand.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

quinton, That is if you have already have BASI2, and even then many schools/associations will require you to do an Anwärter course because the local associations are tightening up on the qualifications scene. It is not as free and easy as it was a short while ago although what they call Vitamin B (Beziehung = Connections) still counts for a lot.

The SBSSV are actually running training courses in Russia for example, and has been for some time in order to meet the needs generated by the ever increasing number of Eastern Europeans coming to the area. They also do the special intensive German course devised for the Russian-based Anwärter courses. According to the chairman of the SBSSV, the most common reason for withholding the Anwärter Award from non-Austrian candidates is that they failed that aspect. As soon as they are deemed to have reached an acceptable standard, they get their award and can progress within the scheme.

A snowHead

Samerberg Sue, We're going round in circles here.

I agree, if instructors want to go through the Austrian system, then clearly they will need German language skills.

For instructors who have already spent time and money getting a cert, the ski schools that I know well are pragmatic. If acceptable German was an absolute requirement, along with taking the Anwärter (despite already having BASI/CSIA/Danish/Swedish/Bulgarian/Slovenian etc certs) then there would be few instructors left to teach in some resorts. In Saalbach, I would estimate that only 25% of instructors are Austrian, with maybe another 25-35% who are Danes/Dutch gap-year kids with Austrian Anwärter certs who mainly teach children, leaving a whole chunk of guys who have 'foreign' certs, experience and relevent languages - but who don't have German or an Anwärter/conversion.

A snowHead

I just wrote a nice long and decent reply to the language and requirements and the whay for the Anwaerter... but browser died and I can't be bothered again!... if you really want to know then either PM me or read the blog I wrote....

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=76074

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wow, got some serious input here. From what I can understand so far, it will do more good than harm to learn several languages to at least a basic communicative level, Austria seems like a good place to get work with foreign qualifications (or at least comparably easier than other places, not suggesting it is really easy), and working towards gaining some racing experience over the next few years would be a seriously good idea.

Looks like I'm going to have to really put some focus into this, but then again I knew I would have to from the start. I guessing that when I start working it might be worth trying to do a few full years worth of solid instructing so that I can focus on getting better qualified, and hang back from mountain biking for a while. From what you guys have been saying it seems like I can either be an average worker in both disciplines or a higher end worker in one of them. In a few months time I will hopefully be qualified with a level 2 MBLA meaning I can take groups mountain biking all over the UK, and makes it much simpler for me to get foreign qualifications (from what people in the industry have told me). Essentially this means that when I want to move into the industry it should be a lot simpler than getting into the skiing business, and therefore it seems logical that once I have my level 2 I should focus on skiing (obviously I will still be racing mountain bikes but not trying to get more qualifications), and when I've been working in the skiing industry for a few years I can look at carrying my mountain bike experience over to foreign qualifications so that I have the option then to work in both industries.

Does that sounds right? Or should I be aiming to work in both industries from the get go?

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Don't see why really (other than maybe financially), summer = mtb, winter = ski..? Staying in the same resort for both will help with making useful contacts too. Be aware you often need to have logged a certain amount of teaching hours to be able to start the next level qualification too.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Okay, so staying in the same resort is a good idea, brilliant. I don't really want to have to drop the MTB if I don't have to Very Happy

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So, update time. I've done indoor skiing aplenty this season and had a week in Tignes just before Christmas - due to some utter miracle of genetics, I appear to have a natural flair for skiing - or at least, I find it easy to pick up the skills (In no way am I insinuating that I'm really good at it, certainly not wanting to sound boastful.) Whilst I was in France I was easily keeping up with guys from the Uni ski club who have been skiing for 10+ years, and really got my teeth into powder skiing. Had a really positive experience and managed to raise my skill level hugely (At least, that's how it felt). By the end of the week I was comfortably sending jumps and drops and getting excited every time I saw a steep bit of off-piste - safe to say I'm hooked. If funds allow I'm looking at picking up a cheap deal near the end of the season to get another weeks experience in.

So, time to see how the plans have progressed. The french is going well, and I'm considering getting some night classes to speed up the process, as learning in a group is much more entertaining. Location wise, my eyes have been drawn to Switzerland as another firm favourite, and as previously mentioned BASI LV II is accepted there, which works out very well for me. So, the question now is qualifications and where to get them. The way I see it, I have a couple of options - Break the courses down, and do them as cheaply as possible over the coming years, or save money over the next few years and do a season long course. What do you guys think is the better option? Obviously a season course would be an amazing experience, but it is going to be at least £6000-7000 and I can't help but think that the money could be much better invested elsewhere. On the mountain biking front, I've got MBLA training soon and I'm working towards my ML with Uni, which I then plan to step up the IML, which even the French won't complain about. All in all I'm pretty on-track, although I plan on starting doing some guiding work with my MBLA soon so that I can get funds together for next seasons skiing.

Thoughts?

Help!!

Advice on gaining instructor qualifications UPDATE

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