Watching that video makes me wonder: are they deliberately adjusting the "pitch" of the skis (as in, moving the tips/tails up and down) to meet the upcoming terrain or is it purely gravity and balance? (I hope the question at least makes sense)
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I must admit I wondered in some of those clips whether they could have stopped if they had wanted to.
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finestgreen, they are actively pushing the tips of their skis down in to the troughs between moguls to maintain ski-snow contact (except, of course, where they are taking air and skipping a couple of bumps). As they approach the bumps they are actively sucking up their knees to absorb the terrain. At that speed and bumps that big it is impossible to be purely 'reactive' - you have to actively manage the terrain to ensure as much ski-snow contact as possible to enable you to be constantly steering.
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Quote:
nothing retro about their technique or ability
maybe he just meant the haircuts? Incredible; makes my knees ache just to watch it.
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rob@rar wrote:
finestgreen, they are actively pushing the tips of their skis down in to the troughs between moguls to maintain ski-snow contact (except, of course, where they are taking air and skipping a couple of bumps). As they approach the bumps they are actively sucking up their knees to absorb the terrain. At that speed and bumps that big it is impossible to be purely 'reactive' - you have to actively manage the terrain to ensure as much ski-snow contact as possible to enable you to be constantly steering.
Indeed, if you watch they sometimes choose to fly over a mogul, other times they choose to press the tips down, you can see that very clearly in the video.
And yes I mean retro hair, skis, music etc.
I wonder if mogul skiing is the one thing where technique has stayed similar despite the 'new' carving skis??
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kitenski, Lovely lovely!
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Quote:
I wonder if mogul skiing is the one thing where technique has stayed similar despite the 'new' carving skis??
Probably so - carving pretty irrelevant in moguls, eh what? But the size of moguls might have been affected. We were skiing with a young French visitor in Les Contamines a few years ago. While I, tired, skied down to the car, the youngsters went off to ski the Veleray slopes, which were mogully. The French guy was a good skier but struggled on huge borrowed skis of a similar vintage to that film - and rear entry boots to match. The moguls had been made by people skiing on much shorter skis (does that make sense?).
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kitenski, If you look at comp bump skis there isn't a huge amount of side cut.
I wouldn't think the skiing technique has changed that much, but the aerials have !!
Equally - has SuperG or DH changed very much?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
pam w, I seem to recall that someone published a physics paper on moguls a gew years back. The suggestion that I most clearly recall is that they proposed that moguls behaved as slowly moving near standing waves (actually moving slowly uphill) and that the amplitudes were more governed by the gradient of the slope.
I may have made at least the last bit up.
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rob@rar wrote:
finestgreen, they are actively pushing the tips of their skis down in to the troughs between moguls to maintain ski-snow contact (except, of course, where they are taking air and skipping a couple of bumps). As they approach the bumps they are actively sucking up their knees to absorb the terrain. At that speed and bumps that big it is impossible to be purely 'reactive' - you have to actively manage the terrain to ensure as much ski-snow contact as possible to enable you to be constantly steering.
Don't you think at that speed and frequency it would be impossible to be consciously acting? I'd suggest that reactive muscle learning is what's happening?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
under a new name, I suppose I could have used the term passive rather than reactive, as the counterpoint the notion of doing it actively. However you describe it I'm sure they are doing that subconsciously.
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rob@rar, Gotcha.
Yes, that fits better.
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The skiing on that video is really good isn't it. I take the point that it is not using modern skis, but I can see the upper lower body separation, they only look down the hill and I can their skis moving left and right under their stationary upper bodies. I can also see that their upper body remains on a level whilst their legs move up and down. Loads of the stuff mentioned in this thread and even bits that we learn with modern carving skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar, I'd happily trade my modern kit and dress like those guys if I could go down the hill like that
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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oldmancoyote wrote:
rob@rar, I'd happily trade my modern kit and dress like those guys if I could go down the hill like that
Yup, me too. Mind you, when I was wearing kit like that I still didn't ski like them, so I think there might be something else which accounts for their abilities
kitenski, that's a great video. Thanks for sharing.
Here is one of my favourites, I think I have posted it before but it seems appropriate.
Its quite a long video, the skiing starts 1:30 and at 4:19 it starts to get quite interesting. There is some great skiing mixed in.
Mogul skiers practice a lot in the flats (ie out of the moguls on piste). This is where you build the fundamentals.
Note the wedge turn drills at 5:07.
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kitenski, some rad skiing in that video!
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Sorry Rob but I was just about to say how the technique has changed with shorter skis. Great to watch a pair of Assaults going down the bumps again - I think they were Assaults anyway - no doubt one of my sons will comment! Very dynamic skiing in the video but with shorter shaped skis there is now much more ski/snow contact and the top competitors really do carve rather than jump in bumps.
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mogulski, I will admit I haven't watched an comp skiing in earnest in a long time. I bow to your specialist knowledge!
Still not convinced that "recreational" bumps technique is so very different...
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mogulski, PM received yesterday, filed for when I have more time to properly answer it, many thanks for taking the time though, most appreciated.
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under a new name wrote:
mogulski, I will admit I haven't watched an comp skiing in earnest in a long time. I bow to your specialist knowledge!
Still not convinced that "recreational" bumps technique is so very different...
Ditto, on both points.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
mogulski, I am going to say though (and caveat that it's not always easy to analyse bumps skiing in particular) I don't see a great deal of carving here (2.20 in and onwards), 2012 Deer Valley WC http://youtube.com/v/-eBScvtCh_A
I do see some most fab skiing though!!
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've just watched the Chuck video above, I hope that was an advanced lesson as I think that was way beyond how I could ski
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Skiing to the standard of the Deer Valley world cup can only be done by those who were there competing plus about that many again in the world. The standard is going up so quickly that even ex-competitors are quickly unable to ski at that level. The video above mostly shows the airs but I can assure you there was a lot of carving at that event. It is being used for the mogul judge training this winter so I have spent a day and a half watching it, reruns, slow motion, analysing in hours of discussion. We all have to attend training and sit a test each year to judge international events to make sure judging standards are even. The medal winners were all scoring in the excellent or very good category so were certainly carving! I judge this but I certainly can't ski like that!
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Megamum, for an intermediate in the bumps I beg to differ with the views above regarding the right technique for you. The safest and most controlled way to ski bumps is a series of pivot slip turns with your feet close together. Too much or sometimes any carving and the bumps will spit you out.
A good progression is to get the turns nailed on a flat piste (pivot slips and short radius), progress to doing it on the ridge at the side of the piste then into ever steeper and larger bumps. If you are still happy then you can get into the more advanced stuff.
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jbob, currently when faced with a mounded and mogully looking slope (though not necessarily solid, solid ones) I tend to plan path through a few of them making turn around the closest and then progressing in a near diagonal, skittery skating uncertain route through these relying on sheer balance and sort of plan to face the skis uphill and stop somewhat haphazardly before I totally lose control. Then rinse and repeat. I assume that anyone in control will take one look at me and steer well clear and anyone doing what I am doing will be paying sufficient attention to miss me as I do to them I try to stay safe and controlled and think I achieve this as so far I have got down what I need to, but 'getting down' is probably a better description of what I do than 'skiing bumps' would be
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Megamum, sometimes it can be useful to split the skills needed and the terrain, and I think moguls is a case in point it's very difficult to learn some of the skills required for the bumps in the bumps, better to nail the skills on much easier ground then learn how to apply them in the bumps. This is what i attempted to describe above.
The two elements that must be learnt in the bumps is choice of line and absorbing the bumps. On absorbing the bumps, personally I find it more effective to think of reaching into the hollows rather than sucking up the tops. Above all is the need to stay in control otherwise it's just a controlled fall. My daughter likes to think of it as a series of poke it in the head and shave its face
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mogulski wrote:
Sorry Rob but I was just about to say how the technique has changed with shorter skis. Great to watch a pair of Assaults going down the bumps again - I think they were Assaults anyway - no doubt one of my sons will comment! Very dynamic skiing in the video but with shorter shaped skis there is now much more ski/snow contact and the top competitors really do carve rather than jump in bumps.
Megamum I've sent you a PM so look in your messages.
I realise this may be one of those "how long is a piece of string" question, but when you refer to shorter skis, how short are they typically? Say for a guy like me, 1.80/5'10" and 85kg/190 lbs? (I ski normally on 1.70 - 1.80 modern shaped skis; used to get 200/205 back in the 1980s)
jbob, I think braquage is something like what the instructor taught me in Les Arcs as a technique for dancing on what little snow there was down the very edges of some very hard and icy pistes. I can remember practising with poles on the back of my wrists - sort of short instant turns IIRC the instruction was to almost hockey stop on the skis on each turn. He didn't tell me what sort of turns they were, but they felt to me something like those turns in the video clip and those I've seen previously of braquage. In fact, though I shouldn't say it, I think I'm fairly good at nipping down a piste edge with turns like that so hopefully that might help with moguls
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mogulski, We may need to spit this out into a new thread...
I just don't see where any carving is going on.
And if you look at other (sorry, seen but not saved) vids, the tracks of the skis are more or less straight. I appreciate that a long radius arc is going to look more or less or completely straight if the arc is short enough but I just don't see any opportunity to carve (or necessity).
But let me think a little harder about it, or please, please, enlighten me as to where in the turn phase you are looking dor it.
I love bump skiing and I am truly, deeply fascinated by what you do!
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