 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi everyone!
Like it says on the tin really, I'm in the market for skis having previously only hired. I'm looking for an all mountain ski that will be good for (65% piste 35% off piste), some moguls, park features not important. I'm thinking around 90mm under foot based on trying out a couple 80, 90 and 100m skis and what I've read on here.
I'm really keen for advice as only had 5 weeks on snow (plus some time in the fridge) and don't really know much about skis or what I need, rather than like the look of javascript:emoticon(' '). Have previously enjoyed x wings, fischer progressors on piste and tested salomon rocker 2 the other week (though just in snow dome) but really enjoyed that, but was thinking they require more work and could be interesting on ice.
I would say I'm an early intermediate, on the 'what level am I' guide below I think level 7 but keen to progress, including more off piste having done a 2 day course last season. I'm 6 ft 2, 11.5 stone, 27 and fairly athletic.
http://www.insideoutskiing.com/level.html
So the skis...and the bit where you can hopefully help me decide;
http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/260946/products/salomon_rocker_2_90_2013_mens_skis_skis_only_.aspx
http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/260941/products/salomon_enduro_xt800_2013_mens_skis_and_bindings.aspx
http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/259399/products/atomic_theory_2013_skis_skis_only_.aspx
Also scott crusade 2012 look cheaper and seems a good buy (though i much prefer the graphics on 2013).
Any other skis I should consider?? K2 side stash, scott mission / ventures??
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 29-09-12 16:36; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wider skis are harder to handle precisely on hardpack because of the leverage needed. You really need to decide what you primary type of skiing migt be or where you want the highest performance e.g. if offpiste the rocker 2 might be a good compromise, if being a piste god then something narrower etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I used the Salomon Enduro last season for most of my lessons on and off piste.
It's a great Universal ski.
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I wouldn't be recommending a 90mm ski to a 5 week skier as a development tool unless they already had a 70-80mm piste ski, only ski in West/Central North America or only ski in spring. Assuming you ski mainly in Europe in variable conditions and will only own one pair of skis, stick with the Enduro XT800.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ Just Europe, though I want to go further a field eventually. I do tend to book late and try and go where the snow is / should be.
90mm I still felt okay in tight turns, though could feel the burn more.
The enduro seems like the sensible option...but not the most exciting 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Mr White wrote: |
The enduro seems like the sensible option...but not the most exciting |
The most exciting ski is the one that gives you confidence and helps you develop quickly in the conditions you ski most. You said 65% on piste and showed concern about skiing bumps and ice. The Enduro will be much better than the R2 90 for that.
If you've got the cash you might want to consider the new Kastle MX83 - possibly the best piste-biased 1 ski quiver ever made according to early reviews.
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I always get the feeling that Kastle fans are either totally non price sensitive or haven't paid full retail.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I always get the feeling that Kastle fans are either totally non price sensitive or haven't paid full retail. |
You almost never see any for sale second hand though, do you? They must be doing something right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
You almost never see any for sale second hand though, do you? They must be doing something right. |
I agree. They've definitely created a premium product in a commoditised industry and people do seem to love them. I wonder as they push more intermediate products/ extend the range whether the halo can cope (but then people buy BMW 1 series so?)
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Kastle MX83 sound good, probably better than I need, though a forgiving tip and tail sounds helpful! £850 though. Only seem to be on edge and wax at moment so maybe a bit of competition will drive price down?
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mr White wrote: |
Kastle MX83 sound good, probably better than I need, though a forgiving tip and tail sounds helpful! £850 though. Only seem to be on edge and wax at moment so maybe a bit of competition will drive price down?
Thanks for all the help and suggestions. |
Hi, it is a lot of money, but it is a LOT of ski. Our prices are good compared to the in resort price, that's certain  We have taken a margin hit too to get the price down, and with the Euro who knows what will happen!
Kastle skis are stunning, but really difficult to stock due to the value involved for an independent like us and they are directly purchased from the factory, so it is a bit of a commitment but one we feel worth making as they ski superbly and they keep going, so well made and durable!
Rocker2 is simply stunning though if you want to lower the price a little, it almost grabbed ski of the year, and the Theory, last years ski of the year, is in our opinion EVEN BETTER this year with carbon stringers down the length to make it more lively, and is a bargain with the binding combination on offer. Either of these two will serve you well.
Between the 3 links from our site you posted, the Rocker2 is hard to ignore, its fantastic, and the Theory has that balance of performance/price, so I think for me it would come down to budget, and those two skis.
Hope that helps!
ScottyDog
Ski Tester - Edge & Wax
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mr White wrote: |
| £850 though. Only seem to be on edge and wax at moment so maybe a bit of competition will drive price down? |
Not much chance of that, I fear. My understanding is that they are made in limited quantities every year and sold out everywhere by mid-season.
So I guess it all depends if you view them as a long term investment. They're certainly good enough for true expert skiers so you'll never outgrow them and the materials used are meant to be good for 200+ ski days, roughly twice as long as most mass market skis. If you're the kind of guy who always has to have the latest thing though that argument won't appeal.
Get some in a 173cm and I'll give you £200 for them in 2 years time
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I always get the feeling that Kastle fans are either totally non price sensitive or haven't paid full retail. |
Does anyone pay full retail for outdoor kit?
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You know it makes sense.
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OP, check out the Dynastar Sultan 85 (now called the Outland 85 or something?). Great skis, sound like exactly what you're after. Should be able to buy a brand new version but with a previous season's graphics fairly cheaply too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Does anyone pay full retail for outdoor kit? |
Ellis Brigham/S&R manage to pay the rent on Covent Garden & High Street Ken addresses so I'm assuming that a proportion of punters do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, I'm always surprised anyone buys anything from them outside of the end of season sales - S&R in particular seem to always be more expensive than most other shops for the same item (even outside of sales).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Another vote for Rocker 2 over the enduro, more versatile for what you are looking to do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mr White wrote: |
^ Just Europe, though I want to go further a field eventually. I do tend to book late and try and go where the snow is / should be.
90mm I still felt okay in tight turns, though could feel the burn more.
The enduro seems like the sensible option...but not the most exciting |
Out of interest, where could you "feel the burn", this could well point to you sitting back and putting extra strain onto your thigh muscles.
I'll add another vote for the don't buy 90mm with your experience...70-80mm IMHO.....
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The CoreUPT sale deals from the continent this year were pretty good!!
I know I'm going to get flak for this but I really like my K2 Apaches as an all mountain ski. I have various other pairs of skis (WhiteDot, Liberty's, CoreUPT, Salmonella ... hold on ...) that are good for specifc tasks but if I don't know where I am going when I leave in the morning I strap on K2's. They have enough edge and rocker for the piste and enough flex, camber and width for powder. They do not work that well for moguls but then neither do I 
That said, I am a hefty chap under 6ft that carries quite a bit of leg muscle and I think the longer K2's work better with my physique. I have skied Kastle and frankly I don't reckon them for the money - I can get custom ski's geared for my physique at about that price (hello Idris!). I also tend to ski from the centre of the ski on a 50/50 balance and rely on rising and falling more than others who front edge more than I do (I've had positional scanning done and I am almost perfectly centre balanced).
Since you don't mention your stats it would be difficult for anyone to be that accurate in advising the best skis for you. Various ski types seem to work better with heavier people than others, some seem to match taller people. I think Kastle suits the leaner, taller skier from my observation on the slopes.
I think the closest they do now to the Apaches is the '50th Anniversary Impact 5500' which is built pretty much for what you want to do. If you have my stats - check them out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mr White, I have a vested interest but for what it is worth
I have the Rocker 90's and wow! But on the other hand based on the info you have provided I would go for the Enduro.
The Rocker are geared more toward 70% off piste 20% Park and Piste to get to where you need to be, the enduro Will hold you better on piste compared to the Rocker.
Interesting feedback from resort workers etc there has been a sharp rise in collisions in Europe this year due to People straight lining it on Hard packed piste on wider rockered skis and not being able to control them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Interesting feedback from resort workers etc there has been a sharp rise in collisions in Europe this year due to People straight lining it on Hard packed piste on wider rockered skis and not being able to control them.
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That sounds like really reliable information 
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| kitenski wrote: |
| Mr White wrote: |
^ Just Europe, though I want to go further a field eventually. I do tend to book late and try and go where the snow is / should be.
90mm I still felt okay in tight turns, though could feel the burn more.
The enduro seems like the sensible option...but not the most exciting |
Out of interest, where could you "feel the burn", this could well point to you sitting back and putting extra strain onto your thigh muscles.
I'll add another vote for the don't buy 90mm with your experience...70-80mm IMHO..... |
Bad choice of words, was only testing them for a couple of hours and my legs were fine, not burning. What I mean was it felt like I was using more energy on short turns compared to enduro 800 and Rossingol open 88 experience. That could be because I enjoyed the rocker 2 90 more so was putting more effort in. Or could be turn radius and width
In answer to my stats 6 ft 2, 11.5 stone, 27 and fairly athletic
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| scottydog wrote: |
| Mr White wrote: |
Kastle MX83 sound good, probably better than I need, though a forgiving tip and tail sounds helpful! £850 though. Only seem to be on edge and wax at moment so maybe a bit of competition will drive price down?
Thanks for all the help and suggestions. |
Hi, it is a lot of money, but it is a LOT of ski. Our prices are good compared to the in resort price, that's certain We have taken a margin hit too to get the price down, and with the Euro who knows what will happen!
Kastle skis are stunning, but really difficult to stock due to the value involved for an independent like us and they are directly purchased from the factory, so it is a bit of a commitment but one we feel worth making as they ski superbly and they keep going, so well made and durable!
Rocker2 is simply stunning though if you want to lower the price a little, it almost grabbed ski of the year, and the Theory, last years ski of the year, is in our opinion EVEN BETTER this year with carbon stringers down the length to make it more lively, and is a bargain with the binding combination on offer. Either of these two will serve you well.
Between the 3 links from our site you posted, the Rocker2 is hard to ignore, its fantastic, and the Theory has that balance of performance/price, so I think for me it would come down to budget, and those two skis.
Hope that helps!
ScottyDog
Ski Tester - Edge & Wax |
Cheers for the comments. Wasn't suggesting you weren't keenly priced, im just used to shopping around a bit. It's no coincidence all the links were to edge and wax, seems like a great place to buy from. How do the Scott crusades
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Raceplate,
Soooort of agree ( ish)
I have been skiing for 14 years ( 2-3 weeks ) a year.
Bought skis for the first time ever this coming season, Bought an 80mm waist ski, and am worried if i can turn them safely, but then last season i was on hired 74mm waist skis, so does +6mm per ski really make a mahoosive difference. Or are we being sucked in by fatter is cooler, if so, think i have been suckered, though there are people on this forum who have stated an 80mm ski is a piste ski anyway 
So what i am saying is, if we assume most people start these days on a 72-74mm waist ski.
Is there a natural way to progress, say go from 74mm to an 80mm to an 85 to a 90 mm, or how do we progress, or do we never try something different,
and before someone shoots me down, i am genuinely interested, and am not trying toi start a bun fight at the Snowhead Coral
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Timbobaggins, these days an 80mm ski is an 80% piste ski and for a bloke that's done 30 odd weeks like you is never gonna be a problem. A 74mm would be better on hardpack (think early season ski) but only if you're also comparing like-for-like stiffness and length. A soggy 74mm would not be as stable as a stiff 80mm. I would have no hesitation in recommending something wider to you if your development direction was off-piste or soft snow biased and you're a competent all-round piste skier. The issue I have is that Mr White is a 5 week skier, not a 30 week skier and there is a massive difference between those levels of experience.
The other issue is whether you're trying to do everything on one pair of skis or if you can carry a quiver, and what time of year you do most of your skiing. The wider the ski, the more it's suited to mid/late season. FWIW, my ideal European quiver would be a 70mm GS type ski (early season/hard snow/hard-carving days), 88mm all-rounder with a strong edge (mid-season onwards/soft snow) and a 105-110mm rockered powder ski.
If I only had to pick one it would be around 80mm because I know it will cope with all piste skiing and most European off-piste conditions. I've had several pairs of 100-110mm skis which are great on a proper powder day but they're all crap on piste in comparison. A 90mm ski is a reasonable all round compromise for an experienced skier who never skis early season but it's not an on-piste development tool for an advancing intermediate.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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From memory the Rocker 90 were fun pretty soft skis similar geometry to the lords but with better grip on piste, they turn extremely well, great in the bumps and more fun than the narrower enduro, carvings overrated anyway isn't it?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Timbobaggins wrote: |
Raceplate,
Soooort of agree ( ish)
I have been skiing for 14 years ( 2-3 weeks ) a year.
Bought skis for the first time ever this coming season, Bought an 80mm waist ski, and am worried if i can turn them safely, but then last season i was on hired 74mm waist skis, so does +6mm per ski really make a mahoosive difference. Or are we being sucked in by fatter is cooler, if so, think i have been suckered, though there are people on this forum who have stated an 80mm ski is a piste ski anyway
So what i am saying is, if we assume most people start these days on a 72-74mm waist ski.
Is there a natural way to progress, say go from 74mm to an 80mm to an 85 to a 90 mm, or how do we progress, or do we never try something different,
and before someone shoots me down, i am genuinely interested, and am not trying toi start a bun fight at the Snowhead Coral |
Thing to remember is people are approaching things from radically different angles and many haven't actually skied a wide range of skis so often what seems like expert advice based on experience is just prejudiced opinion. So advice should be taken with a pinch of salt, including mine!
To the OP don't make ski buying decisions based on advice from the interwebs. Use that to narrow the field then see if you can find somewhere to try them out. Like Raceplate points out the more general ski construction is just as important as the waist width in how the ski will feel. Plus it's quite fun to go out and really notice the difference between different skis.
For disclosure I've not skied a ski under 100mm for the last five years so YMMV.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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clarky999, 2 Ski School Staff members and 3 BASS instructors are not starting the season due to injuries picked up in collisions described above. As a employee in the ski industry with instructor qualifications and a high standard of skiing I have at times found 100 + rockered skis difficult to control on hard packed icy piste’s.
Plus from having a very long conversation over a few beers with mountain rescue in two spate Canadian resorts this year I got similar feedback.
gatecrasher, Rocker and the Lord are two VERY diffrent skis just start at the difference in the rocker and work your way down from there.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mr White, if you would like to try some different wider skis then you could always come along to the Inside out event at Hemel on the 20th Oct http://www.insideoutskiing.com/sales/index.php?route=product%2Fproduct&product_id=225&tracking=snowshepherd
On the point of wider skis then I think its more down to skier ability than the skis in question, without a doubt there are some wider stiff skis with rocker that are specifically for off piste charging and they can be pretty difficult to handle on piste for even expert skiers.
I am always more worried about novice skiers sat right back into the back of there boots and charging down the easier runs totally out of control and not able to turn at stupid speeds. The French have been doing this for the past 30 years to my memory.
Many of the newer wider rocker skis have a small radius and are very good on hard icy pistes, plus there has been for a number of years traditionally shaped skis which are sub 100 under foot with carve radius up around 40m that are not easy to ski for anyone other than expert skiers, its a bit like putting an intermediate on a pair of Super G skis.
As meh, points out, many skiers do not get the chance to ski 20 plus pairs of skis to compare them, and dare I say many retailers only ski a couple of runs on each pair of skis at a ski test, therefore the advice they can offer is limited, I have to add that their advice is not incorrect but just limited. There is a huge amount of ski test reviews out there that are just plain copy from manufactures blurb and to be honest alot of it is just wrong especially when it comes to super fat skis.
Have to add that Edge and Wax offer a great range and a great service on the skis that they sell. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
gatecrasher, Rocker and the Lord are two VERY diffrent skis just start at the difference in the rocker and work your way down from there.
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Fattes13, Hmm!? maybe we are talking about different skis, The Rocker "90" are 2mm wider all over compared to the Lords, at the time we tested them we were told they would be replacing the Lords for the new season, if you look at Salomon’s new line up they sit directly where the lords "used to" we put them side by side to the Lords and tbh couldn’t see a huge difference?- maybe a bit more rocker and the new semi sidewall construction. We had a long standing Lord fan with us who tried them for a couple of days on and off...He really liked them but thought the differences were not enough to change over to them....I thought they were really easy going and a lot of fun.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| livetoski wrote: |
| I am always more worried about novice skiers sat right back into the back of there boots and charging down the easier runs totally out of control and not able to turn at stupid speeds. The French have been doing this for the past 30 years to my memory. |
Indeed, regardless of what skis they were on. I think if people are skiing dumb on piste it's probably because they are dumb rather than anything to do with ski choice.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Mr White, have you considered or tested skis like this (depends on how aggressive you are):
http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/251416/products/head_supershape_titan_2013_mens_skis_and_bindings.aspx
Terrain: 70% piste / 30% off piste
The Head Titan Supershape has been around for a couple of seasons now but still sets a benchmark for an aggressive all conditions carver. Designed for the advanced skier who really wants to push their skiing. This all-rounder feels at home laying fast aggressive arcs on piste as well as cutting through the crud and fresh snow if you have over taken the piste basher!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
clarky999, 2 Ski School Staff members and 3 BASS instructors are not starting the season due to injuries picked up in collisions described above. As a employee in the ski industry with instructor qualifications and a high standard of skiing I have at times found 100 + rockered skis difficult to control on hard packed icy piste’s.
Plus from having a very long conversation over a few beers with mountain rescue in two spate Canadian resorts this year I got similar feedback. |
I'm not disputing that fat rockered skis aren't great on icy pistes, but 'a couple of resort workers' opinion really gives no factual basis that there's been a 'sharp rise in collisions in Europe,' purely because of rockered skis. The same people who 'straightline hardpacked pistes out of control' have always been doing that and are dangerous on any skis.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Fattes13, Hmm!? maybe we are talking about different skis, The Rocker "90" are 2mm wider all over compared to the Lords, at the time we tested them we were told they would be replacing the Lords for the new season, if you look at Salomon’s new line up they sit directly where the lords "used to" we put them side by side to the Lords and tbh couldn’t see a huge difference?- maybe a bit more rocker and the new semi sidewall construction. We had a long standing Lord fan with us who tried them for a couple of days on and off...He really liked them but thought the differences were not enough to change over to them....I thought they were really easy going and a lot of fun.
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I work for Aunt Sally! The do sit where the Lords used to and the Lord is no longer in the Range but I was never a fan of the lords and I love these.
They are more a replacement for the 2012 than the Lords, there is a totally different construction and materials used in the Rocker to the Lord.
clarky999,rob@rar, , You are right idiots are idiots regardless of the skis, but the wider rockered skis are just more difficult to control at speed on piste this is fact and those with less experience who opt for them are increasing the risk of accident. Clarky I would hardly call the people I was speakign to resort workers? AVI/Rescue crews who were seeing it every day when they arrived with the meat wagon and top class ISTD instructors.
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| Quote: |
but the wider rockered skis are just more difficult to control at speed on piste this is fact and those with less experience who opt for them are increasing the risk of accident.
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Agree with you on the part about less experienced skiers, they should not be on these types of skis.
But your wrong totally in generalising that fat rocker skis are more difficult to control, some fatter rocker skis are easier to control, not all but some. In fact I might add that some fatter rocker skis are easier to control than, race skis, blades, even snowboards and the old 2 meter skinny skis but we do not see the same thing said about these types of skis?
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They are more a replacement for the 2012 than the Lords
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I was never a fan of the lords and I love these
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Fattes13, Thanks for that...makes it even more interesting...I wasn't a massive fan of the 2012s but loved the Rocker 90...go figure???
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="Fattes13"]
| Quote: |
Clarky I would hardly call the people I was speakign to resort workers? AVI/Rescue crews who were seeing it every day when they arrived with the meat wagon and top class ISTD instructors. |
Was just what you said the first time. Still, the anecdotal opinion of a few people is unlikely to give a particularly accurate overall view - especially when one half tend to arrive after any accident (so presumably don't see it) and the other half generally tend to dismiss anything other than an FIS gs ski as appropriate whatever the conditions
Of course I'm not saying a fat rockered ski is an ideal tool for a piste-based intermediate (or anyone skiing on ice!), but I have a hard time picturing them causing more accidents - especially as, like livetoski says, some are easier/harder to ski than others.
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| kitenski wrote: |
Mr White, have you considered or tested skis like this (depends on how aggressive you are):
http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/251416/products/head_supershape_titan_2013_mens_skis_and_bindings.aspx
Terrain: 70% piste / 30% off piste
The Head Titan Supershape has been around for a couple of seasons now but still sets a benchmark for an aggressive all conditions carver. Designed for the advanced skier who really wants to push their skiing. This all-rounder feels at home laying fast aggressive arcs on piste as well as cutting through the crud and fresh snow if you have over taken the piste basher! |
Couldn't agree more, simply a stunning hard charging all conditions piste ski, my 2 year old pair are still my favourite piste ski, feels weird saying piste ski for a 78mm ski, but it does what it says on the tin the Titan, and would suit any aggressive carver skiing in changeable piste conditions.
ScottyDog
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FAQ
) so what chance have they got on a fat ski?
