 Poster: A snowHead
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
I had a look at and complieda list of a whole host of suppliers who seem primarily foccussed on stuff that floats. If it's good enough to keep your nads out of the water, it's good enough for me. The entropy resins link I psted above is from the RAMP guys who seesm to ahve done a lot of comparative testing before lumping with that. Idris, they reckon it's very eco if that's any use to you. I'm all for saving the planet where I can (as long as I avoid de-lamination, that is). Happy to go with whatever is suggested but the top and bottom sheets have to epoxied with stuff that dries super-clear |
I have some Entropy resin, haven't skied the skis yet, but many others have, especially stateside, I think a few of the smaller ski companies use it full time.
I've used http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/, R-G.de (Type L) and West System - all to good effect - Wile working stateside I used a number of different resins and would not recommend any of them.
Don't forget your fiberglass, you can go with separate uniaxial and 45 Biax as two separate layers top and bottom, but as soon as I found a supplier of triaxial I used that instead - much easier one layer top one layer bottom. (http://hp-textiles.de/ is who I use)
Once you've cracked the skibuilding then you can go all rocket science and play with carbon or go green and use hemp (BTDT) or flax (under development).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hi
If the only thing holding you guys back is access to a ski press, then we could probably come to some arrangement, as ours won't be running full-time this season.
Our press is a large RSJ type press - 400 mm wide with a useable length around 2.2 meters. Our resin ratios are tightly controlled and the press is heated and water cooled. Building 3D cassettes that you could take away is an option - we do this. Bench testing to provide results to feedback to the designer is not a problem.
Happy to receive PM's on this - we'd be looking for you to provide the design, the cores and the structural fibre, we'd do the manufacture until you had built your own press.
If you decide to go your own way on this, then Idris is a great source of info and I would follow his advice closely.
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richuk, That sounds like a fantastic opportunity. Would it be feasible for us, or one of us to assist in the manufacture, if only to get used to operating a press and see it up close?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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richuk, could you consider one-off specs that an individual could create? Maybe need assist on base/edge build, but could spec up the camber, dims, and internal lay-up. Plus top sheet help. (Only cos I've seen the 2012/13 Burton snowboards based on old LP covers of Pink Floyd ...... and I'd love a set of skis with the old "Yes" artwork).
*smiles nicely*
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feef/skimastaah - PM'd my response, I don't want to hijack a thread that is pulling together a to-do list.
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richuk, thanks for the offer. Pardon my ignorance but where are you based?
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RattytheSnowRat, I assume you're intending to offer full warranty protection for your skis? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I heard the warranty will only apply if you :-
A. Dont put bindings on them
B. Don't ski on the them
C. At no point post a negative comment on an internet forum that could be construed as a moan or whinge
D. Also purchase a £900 kitchen gadget
and
E. attend all UK based ski shows and spend a considerable amount of money at a UK based company despite the products being cheaper through their online shops.
Seems fair to me 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Is the 152mm diameter when filled or width when flat? If it's width when flat it probably won't be wide enough for a ski as you'd want it to be a little wider than the ski ideally, so that the pressure is applied evenly across the width
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What diameter hose were you guys looking at? I'm awaiting a reply from the hose company...
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You know it makes sense.
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tomb, you lucky SOB!
bobmcstuff, ansta1's assessment is way too libleral - the warranty will be much more restrictive than that  Realistically, if ANYTHING I did failed to live up to the level of performance or care that I stated it would, I would correct it regardless of cost. That includes any ski I manufacture. What I would not do is offer a carte blanche guarantee on a ski that some idiot decided to ride naked down a 1 in 1 scree slope at the height of summer thus breaking both arms and his skull and getting third degree sunburn.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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tomb,
I think that hose is too thin, m8. I'd want to use something that withstood more than 9 bar max. I think that stuff is for 'pump out and away' not a heavy pressure. Remember you have (possibly) specific point pressure variations to contend (unless your former and press are really smooth) - you need to have a safety margin.
I was going to get a vertical large band sander in any event so that should double as a base grinder.
ansta1, you obviously read the Burton warranty 
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Poster: A snowHead
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RattytheSnowRat,ski builders recommend the max working pressure is 125psi and a 9 bar rating falls just under that, but not by much 
It also says working psi starts at 45, so this could be an option??
The press will be smooth also, I plan on sandwiching the ski between two sheets of thin galvanised steel.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Has anyone else sourced a high pressure hose yet?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just had confirmation, I have approx 10m of 6" I beam being dropped around to my workshop later on today
My plan for rest of week is to create the press with a mate who is a fabricator and for me to build some sort of base on castors. I was thinking of making one with plenty of shelves for storage of materials.
I also need to think of ski designs as I have a quiet week in work and could really knock up most of my formers this week!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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feef, what ever my mate has in his workshop really... The smoothest and most moisture resistant sheet metal I would think.... Not that i know a great deal about metal myself but I'm sure he can advise me on best material.
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Moisture resistant and corrosion resistant aren't necessarily the same thing. You might find the surface of the galvanised steel is rougher than a plain metal and so might well be harder to remove any epoxy from if it gets a bit on it.
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Quite right there, I suppose it'll be a case of trial an error on my part.
Going off on a wild tangent here.... But would it be possible to create sufficient press pressure mechanically? I have some pretty heavy duty 6" I beam, I was thinking would it be possible to link the two throught the use of threaded bar/bolt and then using a torque wrench to tighten up the bolts to a uniform ammount, hopefully creating an even distribution of pressure?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The issue with pressure there is that you're relying on the shape of your press being perfect top AND bottom of the ski.
With the hose system, only the bottom former has to be accurate, and the hose fills the void perfectly with an even pressure. I think it'd be much harder to guarantee the same degree of 'evenness' over the entire surface are of the ski with a purely 'mechanical' press.
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I have 10" rsj's so there won't be any deflection, especially if I bolt every 300mm. The formers will also be perfect, it's my bread and butter as I make them all day every day.
I know that this method is not ideal however, I'm just thinking of a backup incase the hose becomes to hard to get a hold of?!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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tomb,
Yup - I sourced some unused fire hose (approx 20m). It was all they had tho'
feef and I had the air pressure vs gravity discussion above. I still think that some very exact formers would enable you to use weight alone. The idea I had was a single pass with a band saw through a single block of metal. That would give you two exactly matching formers (wouldn't be cheap tho'). Plonk enough odd bits of metal in a bin on top of them and I don't see why it should not work (assuming you loaded the bin evenly) The other option would be a screw press. People have been succesfully applying pressure like that for centuries. Rotational leverage is your friend!
I think you have to check if that hose you looked at will distend too much as well. Some hose rated to burst point gets there becasue it can double in size prior to popping (i.e. it spreads the load)- that won't do for you. Hey - I could well be wrong and it could be perfect!
I think it all comes down to how many ski's you want to make and how much variation you want to try. The air hose press is a nice compromise between bagging and a full on industrial machine.
Very interested to hear that you make formers. How do you fancy a little co-op work to see if we make a couple of sets of modular formers i.e. formers with various swapable sections for different lengths and profiles?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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RattytheSnowRat, ive had another stroke of luck today, i phoned a mate who is a fireman and he reckons he can get a hold of some 9" hose for me. It has a better pressure rating than the stuff ive been previously looking at and (this is the best part), its FREE!!
Total build cost so far =£0
I'm going to draw up some plans later on which i'd like some feedback on.... basically im going to be making a single ski press as this is my first venture into ski building!
With regards to the formers i dont know how accurate a single pass through a band saw on metal would be.... in my experience to cut a former you need a fairly thin blade. The results of using such thin a blade means that the cut is usually untrue!
My idea was to cut out a number of formers out of WBP MDF or some marine ply on a cnc machine, i would then use the master as a template to simply route around create an exact copy every time. I could even do the master out of some sort of hard plastic so thats its more durable. And by doing it like this i know i can knock out a new set of ski formers in under an hour for each new design i make.... no need for a modular former than could become complicated imo...
what you think??
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| tomb wrote: |
My idea was to cut out a number of formers out of WBP MDF or some marine ply on a cnc machine, i would then use the master as a template to simply route around create an exact copy every time. I could even do the master out of some sort of hard plastic so thats its more durable. And by doing it like this i know i can knock out a new set of ski formers in under an hour for each new design i make.... no need for a modular former than could become complicated imo...
what you think?? |
That's what I was getting towards in my own thinking, but hadn't got as far as the CNC'd master.
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You know it makes sense.
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feef, all you need is the one master for each ski, you could even do it by hand, providing you can accurately draw your design onto some MDF and then cut it out using a jigsaw.... im using a CNC because its there and i can easily use it...
I plan to draw my ski in sketchup.... i will then cut it out of one sheet of MDF create a master for the top profile, bottom profile and plan profile... using these masters i will then be able to make a load of copies by simply by routing out using a hand router.
I can also draw up any ski designs you want, i could then send a copy and you could go into a local CNC shop and just get them to whizz out a master template for you if you like?!
I was going to ask for some advice on ski designs as this is where my knowledge is seriously lacking....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Tomb, even at this stage of the game (or rather more importantly at this stage of the game) Press a pair of skis not a ski at a time, it's the only way to guarantee a matched pair.
You need a cat track not a wide hose, or multiple hoses to press a pair of skis. I run one 8" (when flat) hose to press a pair of skis, at 40psi I have more than enough power.
Your mobile press idea is good but unless you are either using very light steel or very heavy wood it will collapse. Open center (no middle reinforcements) steel press frames weigh many tonnes, 10 2x4's won't hold 10% of that weight.
If you are thinking of putting on castors, think of the castors that will take at 7.5 tonne truck, not a car engine crane, let alone washing machine moving dolly (As in your diagram).
If you are thinking of bolting it together, you need a lot more bolts than that. You need a safety factor here over and above the 15-20 or more tonnes a single fire hose will produce in force.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks loads for the info Idris!!
With regard to the cat track and the I beam... my I beam is 6" wide, to press 2 skis i'm guessing i need a working area of around 400mm? Is this where the cat track comes in? Does it allow even pressure to be applied across the 400mm working area even though my beam is only 148mm wide?
Sorry to ask so many questions but i cant seem to find any good info on the use of cat track?
Also...
I have 3 I beams, all of which i can carry by hand, lengths are (2380mm, 3372mm, 2400mm). They are currently resting on a trolley of mine in the work shop which only has 4 castors.... I'm a carpenter by trade so the mobile base is no worry, i can add extra strength to the frame where and when it is required.
Again thanks for the info!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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tomb, I'm with idris on this. I appreciate you know more about this than me but unless you have a really, really strong need to shift the press around all the time, I'd build it static. Even if you need to shift it simply leave slots for a pallet hoist and get a 2nd hand pallet shifter (if you don't have one already). I'd just see if you can get some more RSJ's in the correct dimensions and create some legs with some lateral bracing that can take the stress of lifting. I'm also with him on the two skis at a time (tbh, I was having a sneaky look at a 'double decker' former/press to do four at a time) and the weight of that size press is going to give you issues unless you are using sleepers as supports. I'm not saying it can't be done but is it worth the grief?
One other little issue - you need to work out a way to attach the hose so it won't move. In your current design you have not left any obvious attachment points. As discussed above it's a bug to seal the hose unless you clamp it down and also an unattached hose will have a tendency to move about as pressure is applied. I'd leave a gap at each end of the press so that you can bolt the hose directly to the frame.
I'd aim for a bed size of 800mm in case you want to snowboards.
Re: the cores. You may want to buy some in initally to test the press. Eventually hand making the ccores is where the major quality uplift is gioing to come but there are some cheap cores you can source for the inital runs that will help you save time and set up headaches. Remember the cores have to be routed in three dimensions. Of course, if you have access to a 3D CNC machine then you can zip them out at will.
Idris - I, too, am puzzled by the 'cat track' reference.
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i think i understand the cat track now.... its to apply an even distribution of pressure on the aluminium sheet in the press, like so:
I'm now thinking i dont have enough RSJ to make a double ski press, may have to source something else :/
I have 3 lengths on 10" x 6" @ 3372mm, 2380mm and 2400mm.... i cant see how i can make a double press out of this without finding more RSJ...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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tomb, TBH I think your RSJs are overkill in strength, but not enough of it in length.
I'd be more inclined to build a framed structure out of less heavy materials which would, ultimately, be easily as stiff and strong as a single RSJ you have.
I'm thinking something like 80mm x 40mm with a 3mm wall thickness box-section.
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feef, I completely agree but I'm going to use what I can get for free 
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| Quote: |
i think i understand the cat track now.... its to apply an even distribution of pressure on the aluminium sheet in the press
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Don't see why the pressure should be any more or less evenly spread with or without the intermediate cat track. The only reason I can see where it would help is if the bladder/hose was not wide enough. It would also have to be pretty flexible. I suppose you could mock one up really easily by drilling and joining bits of box section on a wire then you could control the flex.
The other more interesting way of doing it would be to create a cat track out of smallish section rubber hose looped on itself and fixed together to create an inflatable 'cat track' of the required width. That way you could do both jobs in one and lose the separate bladder. You might have to guard/guide the looping with supports but I am guessing the pressure will stop any kinking or dead spots. You could retrofit a normal central heating cylinder with an electric heater installed on a thermostat, fill it with water and then pump air through the inner coil. The air would heat up and pass to the hose cat track supplying the pressure in your press. By re-circulating the air I am guessing you could control the temp very accurately.
No more need for thumping great bits of hose.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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RattytheSnowRat, i can see where your coming from but an aluminium cat track seems to be an industry standard and im guessing that its that way for a reason, i dont claim to know a great deal about this whole ski building malarkey but what i do know is that i dont have enough experience to change a system that seem to work for 99% of ski builders
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Idris, can you point out in the cross section i made above where your heating blankets are placed? Do you heat from top and bottom with 2 individual blankets?
TIA
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FAQ
