 Poster: A snowHead
|
I would appreciate some advice. My eldest daughter has just started secondary school and yesterday came home with a ski trip letter.
It is for the resort mentioned in the title, salzburger sportwelt, ski amade. Now i'm thinking, great it would be good for her to get more time on the slopes particularly away from my bad habits. The problem that is bugging me about it is the date, its for April half term.
What do those in the know think about likely conditions at that time of year, i've had a look through the forum and see mixed reports of weather in that region at that time of year, but would appreciate the knowledge of 
thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Think a bit more info on the resort will help the Ski Amadé lot (who will be along shortly) advise you. The Ski Amadé is a grouping of 25 resorts with 860kmof skiing, including some higher pistes at places like Zauchensee, Sportgastein and the Dachstein glacier which is rather limited.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Easter is early this year and my sons school has been in April for the past 2 years. It was warm and slush in the afternoons but they all had great holidays. They stayed away from resorts and drove to Altenmarkt each day. The better groups skied as far as Zauchensee.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
My experience of the Austria resorts, say around Ski Amade, is they usually have access gondola or cable cars from a town taking visitors to about mid level. Thus when the snow is poor the runs from mid level to the bottom will be close due to lack of snow but most skiers/boarders will find plenty to do above mid level. It is not ski in and ski out like the French. Ski Amade is made up by 5 main areas, 25 unlinked resorts along a huge area between Schladming/Dachstein to Gastein Valley.
Sport Welt is the middle area comprising of Flachau, Wagrain, Alpendorf, Zauchsee, Flachauwinkel, Radstadt, Altenmarkt and a few little areas like Fizmoos, Eban and Kleinarl. It is possibly the biggest of the 5. The low and small areas may be in trouble when lacking snow in April but most of the large ones should be fine for skiing above the mid level.
It really depends where your daughter goes as the small areas like Fizmoos, Radstadtis and Altenmarkt are good for beginners but are low in altitude that do not have an extensive top section. Since this is a school trip so I suppose the organiser will be able to find a place with sufficient snow. The ski buses are pretty good from what I have heard/seen as I normally visit resorts in my own car. The ski pass of Ski Amade covers the entire 5 areas with 860km piste, 270 chairlifts to choose from.
Think there are other SHs here who may have better info about this area.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 15-09-12 12:54; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
HutToHut, right now i have no idea which resort, other than info already given, i have mailed the teacher organising the trip to ask a few more questions.
Frosty the Snowman, thanks for the reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
ansta1,
Here is a piste map of the 5 areas.
To a certain extent the location of where your daughter doesn't really matter. As Frosty the Snowman has pointed out she may be staying in Altenmarkt but the organiser can take them to Zauchensee, Wagrain, Flachau etc if there are better snow there. The low altitude areas will be willing to charge less to compete with areas which have more snow. All the areas are very close to each other and the resorts within the same area are even more so.
From the record I kept when I stayed in Flachau the distances to Radstadl, Wagrain, St Johan in Pongau and Alpendorf are 8, 8, 13 and 16 miles respectively. Going outside Sport Welt to other areas like Schladming, Dachstein, Bad Gastein are 21, 23 and 33 miles.
I would think the school will purchase the Sport Welt ski pass which is slightly cheaper the the whole Ski Amade. There are 10 resorts to choose from inside Sport Welt area itself.
There is no point in worrying the snow because it can change from year to year. The most likely scenario would be on arriving the hotel the hotel owner would tell the school organiser the snow condition of every resort, as he/she has the latest info, and the organiser will decide then. The Austrian practice is one can buy ski pass from the hotel owner or the hotel cost can include meals and ski pass.
If you neef piste maps of Ski Amade PM me as I normally collect a few in every visit. I went for Flachau because it is in the middle of Ski Amade so that I could ski most of the resorts in one trip. Just like the Dolomites each of the 5 areas of the Ski Amade will issue a full map of its own area and then on the reverse side is the entire Ski Amade.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here are some additional info I found from the piste map of Sport Welt.
There are 5 different ski passes one can purchase within just the Sport Welt itself.
Flachau/Wagrain/St Johann/Alpendorf/Zauchensee/Flachauwinkl/Kleinarl/Radstadt/Altenmarkt, Fizmoos, Eben, Goldegg and Hanbaum each sell its own ski day pass for 39.5, 35.5, 29, 26.5 and 29 Euro respectively. It is unlikely that your daughter will go to Fizmoos, Eben, Goldegg and Hanbaum as each has only 8, 5, 5 and 3 chairlifts and intended for beginners mainly. If the school stay in any of them then the school needs to purchase the whole Sport Welt pass in order to be able to go to rest of the Sport Welt.
Thus the most likely accommodation will be targeted the ski pass of Flachau/Wagrain/St Johann/Alpendorf/Zauchensee/Flachauwinkl/Kleinarl/Radstadt/Altenmarkt. For this ski pass Altenmarkt is linked with Radstdt meeting each other at the top of a mountain (9 lifts). Zauchensee, Flachauwinkl and Kleinarl (27 lifts) are fully linked between 3 valleys. Flachau (15 lifts) is a mountain on its own with Reidorf but Wagrain is fully linked with Alpendorf in another 3 valleys (total 29 lifts). I would say an average recreational skier will take about 3.5 days just to go through what is on offer by the mountains here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
kooky,
A cable car to take 130 people between Flachau and Wagrain. That is fantastic!
Any plan to link Flachau with Flachauwinkl? Can't wait to ski from Zauchensee to Alpendorf. It is a day's skiing just to ski one end to another and back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Saikee lol!!! I have often imagined this, can you just imagine, it would be a huge area!!
The one downside of the new G-link, if i am not mistaken, means that the middle station would be right at the fabulous new hut Auhofalm, which was my favourite last season, always quiet and incredible food. Guess it will be overrun now 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I teach for the Radstadt ski school which does a lot of the teaching for school groups accross this region.
They have an Easter group every year, whether early or late.
Teaching is normally 4 hours a day so we tend to try to get early starts.
IMO it is a great place to come!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
saikee, you really are talking a load of guff here!  The SCHOOL party will most likely have been organised through one of the specialist providers. They will have season-long contracts for the equipment hire, ski school and lift company based on volume discounts. The passes will be the Ski Amadé ones as no school party will have the ability to travel around enough to make use of the Salzburger Superski Pass, even though it is not much more (last year about 20 Euro).
ansta1, if you can find out which company is providing the holiday - use the Ski Europe débâcle as your excuse to verify before confirming your child's participation. Any experienced ski trip organiser will accept this without any problem. If you then come back here and ask, there are enough of us based permanently in the area to either know the company (several have been based here for a long time and have good reputations), or know the location, if the teacher gives you that as well. The long term specialists in the area are PGL Holidays, Snowslippers, SkiPlan, and a couple whose names I have forgotten (smaller but secure organisations). SkiPlan for example use special "Youth Hotels" and depending on which one, they can be really good value. Two of the ones used are actually on the home runs for experienced skiers and you can also ski down to the lifts in the morning. These are not usually club hotels either as they are permanent set-ups run by locals not Gap Year kids! Another thing is to find out if they are travelling out by coach or by plane as this affects the choice of hotel location.
As for the skiing at Easter - flangesax has already mentioned, Easter is earlier (March 31st) next year and I would not see any problems whatsoever at that time. We regularly ski down to the village level in mid-April as the use of artificial snow throughout the season enables resorts to fix a much more stable base than they used to prior to extensive snow-making. My best ever powder day in the region was on April 17th a few years ago where myself and the head of the ski school skied through waist deep powder from Hut to Hut giving the owners thank you presents for all their support during the season. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Samerberg Sue,
the company they are using is IBT travel.
Thanks for the replies so far folks keep em coming it's all useful info. Just got to get some for info from teacher and then convince mum to let her go!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
ansta1, yep, I know of them. They are mainly based around the St Johann in Pongau/Alpendorf side and over to Wagrain for their skiing. They use hotels well outside the actual skiing areas and definitely not connected to the skiing. The closest ones are in Bischofshofen (2 hotels) and Hüttau (2 hotels), the other locations will involve a 20 to 30 minute drive to either St Johann/Alpendorf or Wagrain as they are the other side of the Tennegebirge closer to Salzburg. Depending on the traffic of course and the A10 can get pretty packed over the Easter period!
Here is a link to the company site so you can take a peek yourself: http://winter.ibtski.com/local/resorts/resort.php?resortID=20
There is a fair bit of flannel in there of course but they are kosher, I've seen them around for about 10 years or so. An example of the flannel I mean is this (I've copied from their web site):
"Schladming, Sportwelt Amade and Bad Gastein are now all on one pass, giving a whopping total area size of 860km, and we now include the whole Sportwelt Amade pass in our package." - truth is you can't buy any other kind of multiday pass, so it is not as if they are being generous at all! 
Saying that the area is fantastic for school groups and the range of skiing on offer is brilliant. I took my school and youth groups there for over 10 years simply because it offered the kids the best value for the money as well the most authentic experience as all the hotels are run by local families not the tour operators. I even managed to organise and run the trips independently i.e. doing everything myself as cheaply if not cheaper than the bona fide TOs because I knew all the service providers personally.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Samerberg Sue,
I am not involved with any school skiing party and have no idea what kind of ski pass they would buy.
My intention was, based on the piste map of Sport Welt, try to simplify what kind of ski pass the school party is likely to purchase thereby narrowing down the skiing areas OP to concentrate on.
I suppose OP was worrying what kind of snow condition first and then how safe would be for the kids to ski there if the snow were poor in April half term. I was hoping you would join in to provide the vital info as you are the expert in this region of Austria.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
The original purpose of the question was not around the quality of the ski schools, hotels, accomodation or general resort info. All of that info is really welcome and good, but the main reason was to get a real world on the slopes view of the snow conditions in mid april.
thanks folks for the thoughts and input.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
ansta1, You say "April Half Term", what dates do you mean? This area starts to close down the weekend after Easter Sunday. That is the tradition and the basis of the agreements between lift companies and the farmers who own the land. As Easter Sunday is rather early in 2013, that would mean the places starting to close down as of Sunday 7th April. This is due to the lack of punters after the end of the European schools Easter holidays. I don't know the season dates yet, but I would expect a reduced service in most if not all areas as of the 7th April which is ridiculously early compared to say a couple of years ago when Easter Sunday was something like 27th April!
We were still skiing last season in Wagrain and Flachau until 14th April with no problems. Obviously a bit slushy towards the end of the day but still great conditions from mid station onwards. The season ticket I had ran until the beginning of May.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Samerberg Sue,
The dates on the letter are 7th to 14th of april.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
ansta1, That's almost certainly the last week of the season so it will be quiet that's for sure! I would ask where they are staying and what the name of the ski school is that they will be using. This will tell you how much time will be spent travelling to whichever area the ski school uses. The teacher in charge can ask for the name of the ski school if they do not already know it. From that information we can limit the possible areas that the groups will ski in although this far out there are no guarantees either on the ski school or the snow!
If it is of any help I often arranged to take at least one of my groups to that area at that time of year. Sometimes it was late March, others it was late April. We only once had a problem of lack of snow at St Johann in 1992, so we started the week in Wagrain but were able to return to St Johann before the end of the week. BTW I use St Johann to describe the whole area St Johann/Alpendorf area as Alpendorf has only just begun to be used as a separate entity by outsiders, but not by the locals!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
[quote="kooky"]@ Saikee, there is a new lift project here http://www.g-link.at/en/g-link which makes now links Aplendorf/Wagrain/Flachau without the need to trawl through Wagrain to get the Mozart lift. Should be ready by 2013.
quote]
The new lift is due to be finished in the Autumn of 2013 thus will not be ready for this coming winter 2012/2013
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
jimmybog, that is what I've been told by friends in the region. When it is in place though it is going to be similar to the 3S lift in Kitzbühel. with luck it will make the last part of the red runs down to the bottom much more fun as they will be less crowded!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Samerberg Sue, I'm really looking forward to that lift. I love going over that side but you do lose quite a bit of time with the bus and getting up the Graffenberg
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
A quick update. The teacher organising the trip has given me the following information (not sure if it means the wise can give me a better idea of things).
Hotel - Hotel Hubertussbe (can find a few Hubertus but not Hubertussbe jump out immediately).
Location - I am told St Johann or Alpendorf
School - They user the Toni Gruber ski school
regards
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ansta1, OK, the Hubertusstube may be an annexe of the Hubertushof in Hüttau or the teacher has got their stubes and hofs in a muddle! Here is a link to the web site of the hotel: http://www.hubertus-hof.at/ That is the hotel in the IBT brochure by the way.
Hüttau is a delightful village on the B99 between Bischofshofen and Eben. It lies in a fairly deep east-west orientated valley someway below the A10, after the interchange for St Johann im Pongau. It is remarkably pretty and quiet considering the A10 rolls along above it. Most of the hotels and houses are on the north side to take advantage of the warmer south-facing aspect. Distance with a coach from Hüttau to Alpendorf is about about 30kms, not more than 35km. Timewise, you are looking at about 30 to 45 minutes depending on road conditions. At Easter it is not going to be a big problem, so I'd say about 30 minutes.
If they are using the Toni Gruber Ski School, they are going to be starting each day from St Johann/Alpendorf with the meeting point being at the top of the gondola. Toni Gruber is a former examiner for the Salzburger Ski instructors association so he is pretty good. He does employ a lot of "Gap Year" Dutch and English, but by the end of the season most of them have gone and it is the local instructors that are in the majortiy. Get the teacher to ask for local Austrians if they can as the children will get a better quality of instruction, epsecially if conditions are poorer than usual.
Hüttau is a nice safe location by the way which will let the children have some freedom to "roam" but without any of the risks attached to being in a bigger town with larger Supermarkets and a wide range of other temptations! souveniers etc though may have to be bought on an afternoon out to St Johann as the supermarket in Hüttau is quite small and there is not a great deal of choice about what to buy, i.e. not a great range of shops or any big ones!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
If they are using the Toni Gruber Ski School, they are going to be starting each day from St Johann/Alpendorf with the meeting point being at the top of the gondola. Toni Gruber is a former examiner for the Salzburger Ski instructors association so he is pretty good. |
Not always the case, Sue.
When the English bus loads come out the schools teach at wherever the group wishes to ski, including nursery and learners too.
So if they are based in Huttau I would very much doubt they will go to Alpendorf or Sankt Johann but are much more likely to head to Flachau.
Last Easter Radstadt skis school taught at Flachau and Wagrain and Zauchensee all for different groups.
| Quote: |
He does employ a lot of "Gap Year" Dutch and English, but by the end of the season most of them have gone and it is the local instructors that are in the majortiy. Get the teacher to ask for local Austrians if they can as the children will get a better quality of instruction, epsecially if conditions are poorer than usual.
|
I'd be careful with this one too
IME the 'local' Austrians only seem to teach for the schools in their school or college/uni holidays (whcih are at about the same time as the UK's).
These are then the guys that only get a few weeks to ski a year as they are at school or college - which tends to mean that their teaching experience is not as good as the seasonaires.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
flangesax, I know Toni Gruber's school - they will either meet at Alpendorf or at a stretch, Wagrain. Anywhere else and they have to motor their instructors around which they are reluctant to do. I have also seen the IBT coaches in the Alpendorf car park where they have reserved spaces right next to the Talstation!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
In the case of my sons school; the whole party travelled by bus to Alpendorf, met with instructors and then wnet off in their different groups according to ability. The fast group e.g. Skied quickly to Grafenburg base station, bus to Kleinarl, and skied over to Zauchensee for the day. Now that is a nice day
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Thanks all for the useful information, now have to convince Mrs Ansta1 that 11 year old won't be corrupted by masses of year 11 kids spending more time smoking and drinking than skiing!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Frosty the Snowman, I know but ansta1's kid is only in Year 7, so therefore is an 11 year old!
You can buy beer if you are over 14 in Austria but anything stronger is not allowed until 18 and the same goes for fags I think. In Germany it is no fags to anyone under 18 and all the machines are now operated by bank card which has your date of birth encrypted on the chip!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
My mates own a nice (and pretty much only) bar in Huttau. It is called the Black River Bar and they do make some rather wonderful Pizza!
IME these groups have quite a full and hectic plan with evening activities etc.. etc.. so no real worries I expect!
I recon someone somewhere is making quite a bit of cash with this trip. I'd say that is a 40min coach journey from Huttau to Alpendorf, not including loading and unloading etc.. so i'd go for about 2 hours spent on a coach per day. Bit strange considering there are either closer kids hotels or closer ski pistes/schools than are being used. Although it is far from a nightmare and the skiing area is spot-on, I still think it is very cheeky!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
flangesax, You're probably not far off the truth. The outline (for outline see sketchy) itinery says something like.
5 days of 4 hours of lessons each day, with an hour for a lunch break, followed by evening apres ski activities. All food, equipment hire, passes etc are covered and it's only spending money and food on the overnight trip down that has to be provided.
All for the princely sum of £715 for the week........ (or £745 if you want to snowboard)....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
flangesax, ansta1, a lot of the local hotels and pensions in that area got badly burned at the end of the 80s when a whole host of specialist tour operators from the UK went bust leaving unpaid bills all over the place. St Johann im Pongau was particularly badly burnt. Hence they are reluctant to sign the kind of contract that the incoming specialists draw up. Which is why none of the school companies has a regualr hotel in the actual town.
I know at least 3 operators that use various hotels in and around Hüttau and the other outlying villages. If it were not for the school groups these hotels would be struggling to make ends meet each winter. They all troll over to alpendorf because that is where the other suppliers are. The people making the cash are the middlemen who negoitiate all the contracts, the biggest Incoming specialists in the market in Austria with regard to the UK market is the Hourmont family working out of Götzens near Innsbruck.
Using the B99 and the B311 it is about 25kms, so your estimate of 40 minutes is about right flangesax. But the loading and unloading does not take long as the skis and boots are left at Alpendorf or placed in the luggage compartments in the coach. I used to run coach groups and the kids work pretty well with the drivers and teachers if the system is kept simple.
Lessons begin at 10.00 lunch is usually from 12.00 to 13.00 with the instructors and finish at 15.00 back at the top of the gondola station. The hour spent getting to and from the slopes is not that much to be honest. Leave the hotel at 08.30 at the latest - we usually left at 08.00. On the slopes by 09.30.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Lessons MIGHT begin at 10.00 (IF THIS IS THE CASE THEN) lunch is usually from 12.00 to 13.00 (UNLESS IT IS ONLY 1/2 HOUR) with the instructors (POSSIBLY, AS IT DEPENDS ON THE SCHOOL'S CHOICE OF MEETING POINT AND THE INSTRUCTORS ARE ALSO ENTITLED TO A BREAK) and finish at 15.00 back at the BOTTOM OF THE MOUNTAIN. The hour spent getting to and from the slopes is not that much to be honest. Leave the hotel at 08.30 at the latest - we usually left at 08.00. On the slopes by 09.30.
|
It really does depend on what both the school and the ski school decide. You can not generalise quite so heavily, Sue. The days change depending on conditions. At Easter there will be early starts for all ski days. Instructors do tend to eat at the same place as the kids (which is normally pre-arranged so they get a discounted menu) but unless previously arranged it is not normal for them to be in charge of the kids at this point.
I still think it is purely a cash saving thing... Huttau is so cheap to stay at!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
flangesax, I've been working with the ski schools in Alpendorf for well over 20 years - believe me that is the ground plan they work on! OK there may a little variation as the week and conditions change but it does not vary very much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You haven't worked with them since I've known you...
I know you know the chappies who run them but you certainly haven't done any teaching for them.
It is just that you have popped in a couple of gross generalisations in this thread that IMO just don't seem to be too accurate but are written as if you have extracted the blood from the closest vein (probably someone elses knowing you ) and smeered it over the keyboard...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
The snow is obviously going to be heavier in the afternoon, but perfectly skiable if you have some stamina 
And the last part of the runs down to Wagrain are superb and to be honest by far the best bits on the Graffenberg. not fussed about the last bit of the Greisseck (Flying Mozart piste) as I just do not like it! 
