 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
The worst case of a near miss I ever saw where I would say the uphill skiers were not really at fault was a 4 to 5 year old kid taking off from from stationary next to the trees on a steep shoulder and slope join bend without looking and ski at high speed right across the other slope having several near misses with people who were coming down it. Luckily I had seen him shoot off and could avoid his traversing track.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Yeah seriously, its not always the top guy's fault! So so so many people set off without looking up the hill!
I like to think of it as if in car trafic - I wouldn't merge from stationary onto a main busy road without looking, and I would merge behind the oncoming car. But whatever. Everyone else is a numpty and I'm the only person in the right. Always. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Yeah seriously, its not always the top guy's fault! So so so many people set off without looking up the hill! |
Yeah they do don't they. Still not their fault though according to FIS Rule number 4:
| Quote: |
| A skier or snowboarder may overtake another skier or snowboarder above or below and to the right or to the left provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken skier or snowboarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movement. |
Wonder what it's like skiing with involuntary movements! Anyhow, whichever way you cut it, if you're the "top guy" and you have a coming together, it'll be deemed your fault.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Does the FIS differentiate between 'overtaking' and joining or merging with 'traffic' on a slope?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
feef,
| Quote: |
| A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again after stopping or moving upwards on the slopes must look up and down the slopes that he can do so without endangering himself or others. |
so there's a responsibility on both but IMO the way its worded suggests that onus is still on the skier on the move and coming from above to leave enough space.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
so there's a responsibility on both but IMO the way its worded suggests that onus is still on the skier on the move and coming from above to leave enough space.
|
Which is silly. You wouldn't join a busy duel carriage way in a car and expect the other traffic to slow down / swerve to miss you so why should you set off blind onto a busy slope with people coming down at a pace. There has to be some personal responsibility and defensive skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
onus is still on the skier on the move and coming from above to leave enough space
|
yes, I'd say so. If a car pulls out of a side street in front of you and you can't slow down enough to avoid driving into his rear, it's your fault, isn't it? That's why there's always a road sign warning of a junction ahead. Or like driving fast round a blind bend on a country road and crashing into a broken down vehicle? It's obviously important for instructors to drill into people that they must look uphill before starting off (and maybe too few do so) but ultimately, if you have to slow down and/or change course drastically to avoid someone who's behaved stupidly, that's just tough. If the piste is crowded then a safe speed, to allow for idiots, might be very slow. Some people just can't cope with going slow, that's the problem, and think it's their god-given right to blast down everything (hence all the rude comments about ski school snakes or beginners who "weave around" making it hard to pass them on cat tracks  ). If most people took that attitude on the roads there'd be carnage. Safe and skilful driving is about concentration and anticipation, not just tooling cars round tricky bends.
I agree with comments above that far more confiscations of lift passes would be more helpful (and cheaper) than the occasional show prosecution. Word would soon get around if, say, ten passes a day were confiscated in the Three Valleys, or St Anton.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
You wouldn't join a busy duel carriage way in a car and expect the other traffic to slow down / swerve to miss you
|
actually, I'm becoming very cross about the number of people who do exactly that - sailing onto the slow lane of the motorway and assuming anybody in it will move out.
It's discourteous and stupid. But if I am on the inside lane of a motorway and a car coming onto the road is holding its course onto the lane ahead of me, and we are on a collision course, then I slow down to let it in. If I carried on and hit them up the bum then the collision would be largely my fault. And if I pull into the middle lane not leaving enough space for the vehicle overtaking me, I'm committing the same fault myself. But sight lines on motorway junctions are always good - so there is no excuse. If someone just jumps out from behind a bush at the side of the piste it's a bit different. But you kind of need to anticipate people starting off from the side of a piste, don't you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
pam w, It's not your fault if you're on the major road and you T bone someone turning out from a side junction - how can it be if the Give Way signs have any meaning?
As someone who skied over a fool's skis at Easter I do feel strongly about this. I was running a consistent modest pace fall line down a slushy very mogully and narrow home run, successfully avoiding the general carnage. I anticipated and avoided the idiot girl who started off blind from a stationary position at the edge of the piste. What I didn't avoid was her idiot boyfriend who started off not only without looking (I assume unless he was truly confident he was going to come off best if we collided) but screened from uphill sightlines behind her. I didn't throw an elbow as I almost felt entitled to but his tails got skied over and a verbal lashing followed. I guess I'm going to jail in the absolute morality world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Some of the most dangerous acts I've seen are skiers - adults and kids who are messing around off the edge of the piste and then suddenly decide to rejoin it by getting some air over the ridge that often builds up at the edge of the piste without any apparent consideration for who might be coming down it.
I think sometimes they may start sufficiently low down on their side that their view of the main piste must be obscured (and that of the piste skiers to them), but obviously once they commit to their 'trick' there is little bale out until it completes, and I suspect the proximity of on-piste skiers is not the highest consideration in their mind in their moment of 'having fun'. Its made me aware that on piste is not the only place that it is necessary to keep an eye on things. Looking uphill etc. is as applicable to the local off-piste location as well as just on-piste even if you never ski the former.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Quote: |
so there's a responsibility on both but IMO the way its worded suggests that onus is still on the skier on the move and coming from above to leave enough space.
|
Which is silly. You wouldn't join a busy duel carriage way in a car and expect the other traffic to slow down / swerve to miss you so why should you set off blind onto a busy slope with people coming down at a pace. There has to be some personal responsibility and defensive skiing. |
What's silly is comparing the Highway Code with the FIS Rules.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
OK let's look at the rules:
| Quote: |
1. Respect for others
A skier or snowboarder must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others.
2. Control of speed and skiing or snowboarding
A skier or snowboarder must move in control. He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding to his personal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as well as to the density of traffic.
3. Choice of route
A skier or snowboarder coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger skiers or snowboarders ahead.
4. Overtaking
A skier or snowboarder may overtake another skier or snowboarder above or below and to the right or to the left provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken skier or snowboarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movement.
5. Entering, starting and moving upwards
A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again after stopping or moving upwards on the slopes must look up and down the slopes that he can do so without endangering himself or others.
6. Stopping on the piste
Unless absolutely necessary, a skier or snowboarder must avoid stopping on the piste in narrow places or where visibility is restricted. After a fall in such a place, a skier or snowboarder must move clear of the piste as soon as possible.
7. Climbing and descending on foot
A skier or snowboarder either climbing or descending on foot must keep to the side of the piste.
8. Respect for signs and markings
A skier or snowboarder must respect all signs and markings.
9. Assistance
At accidents, every skier or snowboarder is duty bound to assist.
10. Identification
Every skier or snowboarder and witness, whether a responsible party or not, must exchange names and addresses following an accident.
|
The guy I skied over had already breached rule 1 & 2 before we even get to whether I was culpable under 3 or 4 and then he was clearly in breach of 5 & 6. So in normal use 3 works fine but not with previously static objects.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| The guy I skied over... |
Sounds to me like it was YOU out of control 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
fatbob, ha, which is an elegant way of saying what I said.
Some skiers below you may be unpredictable but at least their unpredictability is predictable... ie they generally set off in the direction they are facing. Boarders on the other hand, when they are standing there with their crotches scraping the floor and board across the slope, they can start off in any direction. Still, they probably deserve a thump every now and then (FIS Rule 11)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
It's not your fault if you're on the major road and you T bone someone turning out from a side junction - how can it be if the Give Way signs have any meaning?
|
If you T-bone somebody whilst obeying the speed limit - assuming it was an absolutely blind turning they pulled out of - then it probably wouldn't be your fault. But if they turn onto the main road and then you hit them in the rear, which is what I conjectured, then I think it would be in part your fault. Sometimes it takes two to make a collision - fault is sometimes shared. Approaching a junction you should be alert to the possibility of people doing daft stuff. That's presumably why junctions are signposted. In the maritime rules if the give way vessel fails to do the right thing to avoid a collision, the stand-on vessel (having held its course initially) has to take all possible action to avoid a collision too.
I guess that in the scenario you describe above, fatbob, you either need to slow your speed right down, to allow for all the numpties or download in a lift. I know what I'd do in the conditions you describe - not being blessed with exquisite control. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Seriously in my case I don't feel much remorse - I just put it down to poo-poo happens. If I'd allowed for any eventuality from static non-participants I'd never have made it down the run before it melted completely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
fatbob, are you saying that
| Quote: |
The guy I skied over
|
was a
| Quote: |
static non-participant
|
?
Clearly his fault then 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
altis, If you could put up a copy of The Highway Code too because some people think they are interchangable. S'pose the old thinking time and braking distance chart might come in useful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Static when I approached a reasonable distance away, moving when he set off shortly after and below his GF placing him directly in my path. If he'd not moved he'd have been fine, if his girlfriend hadn't moved I'd have still had line of sight and he'd have been fine.
If 2 numpties do compound numptiness at the same time then reasonable anticipation becomes a complex probability calculation - certainly enough to divert my limited brain power from stuff like bowel control. Then it would really get messy. It's also pretty rare IME to find the parallel rather than serial numpty launch. Clearly the FIS need to address these urgent issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Elston, that second clip is hilarious. The third one is just Darwinian theory in microcosm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| If 2 numpties do compound numptiness at the same time then reasonable anticipation becomes a complex probability calculation - certainly enough to divert my limited brain power from stuff like bowel control. Then it would really get messy. It's also pretty rare IME to find the parallel rather than serial numpty launch. Clearly the FIS need to address these urgent issues. |
It's very clear what you need to do in future. Just aim at one of them on the basis that they are bound to move. I utilise similar thinking in golf sometimes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I must say , I would feel a bit uncomfortable banging on too hard about speedsters as I will admit to skiing for many years when my desire for thrill and speed was way above my ability level. Just like my car driving .
Of course I was wrong but I was only 40ish then. Perhaps there was less traffic about in both cases.
Education is the answer but how we do it is a big problem. On the motoring front I have taken much notice of the lectures I have had called Driver Awareness ---alternatives to suffering a speeding fine and points---, illustrated by examples of sad events and some explanations of basic laws of physics.. On those same courses I have been alongside motorists who puff and blow about it being a gross waste of their valuable time, banging the desk and generally being ignorant. People aren't very appreciative of being told the correct way to do things and locking up a few scarcely makes an indent on the multitude still out there.
I recall Piste Police in Gressoney, a good idea. I guess that the answer is a combination of fear, from publicity of cases like this, and education which can come from so many Ski Industry sources if they will apply themselves, which they should in the interest of the sport which provides their living..
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Bode Swiller,
| Quote: |
What's silly is comparing the Highway Code with the FIS Rules.
|
Nope - how you behave in trafic in a car is a useful comparison to how you would behave in traffic on the slopes. I bet hardly anyone on the slops has read and memorised the FIS rules, or even knows about them! Behaviour in traffic about watching out for others who might do unpredictable things, while also not being a numpty yourself is a decent comparison.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
kat.ryb, hey, why not bring in the laws of the sea or an air traffic control manual? Almost nobody knows the FIS Rules, I agree, but that doesn't mean the the UK's Highway Code is a useful substitute.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Bode Swiller,
ATC sounds more relevant to a crowded piste than the highway code. I'm not sure how you'd maintain a holding pattern above that busy run home at the end of the day though 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure how you'd maintain a holding pattern above that busy run home at the end of the day though |
musher...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Bode Swiller,
That's not a holding pattern, that's a wee wee up
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
...and shirley thats at the bottom (what's the filter going to do to that?), not at the top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
musher, I dunno, I've held quite a few things there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
musher, it closes at 8pm and you have to ski down to town - about half a mile, often quite bumpy, slushy and irregular. People have died.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Bode Swiller,
People who ski like me die quite often (although only once, or at least so I've been told). I often grasp things in a bar...not managed the meaning of life yet though, but that doesn't explain why I keep getting slapped
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
musher, The Mooserwirt is the meaning of life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
