ski technique for soft snow?

A snowHead

I would REALLY appreciate some plain language advice on techniques for skiing when the snow softens up, especially towards the afternoon.

I had my WORST ski day ever yesterday - started off ok on pretty icy slopes, but by late morning/early afternoon, everything had softened into big lumpy piles. I am a decent intermediate skiier, but even some of the tougher blue slopes just took it out of me. It's partly confidence, which just evaporates when I approach a big soft pile and have to contemplate a turn, but I suspect a lot of it is technique - what works on ice or nicely packed snow just doesn't work on soft snow. Any advice would be really gratefully received as it looks like we're in for a spell of warm weather. To be honest, I've been improving so nicely this season, but yesterday really got me down (in both senses of the word).

As an aside, I did change my boots recently and suddenly after my boot bag was (mistakenly?) taken out of the changing room, and opted for a higher flex (80 from 60, I think) on the advice of an instructor ... they feel pretty comfortable, but could that have contributed to my tired legs-one fall-flailing arms-inelegant skiing?

A snowHead

If you try to twist and skid your skis on soft snow it's (a) going to be hard work and (b) going to be very easy to 'catch an edge' and fall over. On gentle slopes which have turned slushy I like to carve my turns with big angles and the skis just slice through the soft snow and bumps. On steeper slopes where carving would end up with too much speed I will use more pressure (pushing the skis against the snow) to shape the turn rather than twisting the skis. The key to skiing different snow conditions is to be able to change how you steer your skis, using a different blend of techniques for turning your skis. If you practice these different techniques you'll be better able to change your skiing to respond to different snow conditions.

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Without seeing you ski it's a bit of guesswork - but it's quite likely that you're turning your skis by turning your feet rather than by letting the shape of the ski do the work for you. Deeper/softer snow will mean more resistance and make it take more effort from you to achieve the same result.

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The conditions, even on piste, are pretty challenging with the current temperatures. There may come a point in the day where you are just better off stopping skiing or looking for better slopes - perhaps shaded runs down in the trees.

In my local resort we have a NE facing slope about 450 m of vertical. On the lhs where it has seen sun in the morning it was very cut up with big berms of wet snow. You can ski down through this with a bit of power and not making big movements in the loose snow, however the right hand side had been in the shade and was still hard and smooth ish.

Another slope that had seen full sun for a couple of hours was huge soggy moguls, not too bad if you took the valleys but ski stopping if you went off track.

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I sympathise, tartegnin, those conditions aren't easy. I find that it's important to feel confident and "on top" of my skis and I try to keep the skis a bit closer together than I usually do, with a sort of "loose and flexible" feeling in the knees (like when you do those "carrying a tray of drinks" exercises where you try to keep your head at the same level and absorb bumps with your legs).

Very often, especially with tired legs, I find I lose that confidence and start skiing defensively and then it all goes quickly to pot.

With the right attitude, skiing slushy sugary snow can be great fun. BUT there's a certain sort of soft snow - often quite flat, actually, and not bumpy or slushy-looking - which you just can't slide on. It grabs your skis and slows you down, throwing you over the front of the skis - that's very, very, hard on your knees, recovering all the time. I don't know what particular conditions form that sort of snow but it's horrible, and just not worth bothering with. It sometimes has a kind of shiny look to it, which you get to recognise - happens sometimes on our home run, towards the end of the season. The sections shaded by trees are fine, the sunny bits are like glue. I find the best way to deal with the gluey bits is to get all my weight on one edge of one ski - then I have a chance of keeping up some kind of momentum. I just lift the inside leg a little and ride on the outside ski, changing every turn (it's just a gentle blue run so that's not too difficult). that also rests the legs, in turn.

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wow - quick and useful responses all, including davidof's helpful "just stop skiing" - wish I had done that yesterday after lunch - it was the long run to the bottom which tipped me over the edge (literally, in one case!)

Rob@rar and Okanagan - do I understand you right that I should not try to edge the skis too much in those condition? And I'm not sure about the "turning your feet" comment - is that meant again not to try too much edging, but rather rely on the weight shift in the transition to carry me through?

thanks (and hoping for more - need all the help I can get ...)

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Basically there are three inputs to a turn - pressure (putting your weight on the ski which bends itand tightens up it'snatural turn), edge (putting the ski on edge and utilising the natural curve built into the design of the ski) and rotation (changing the direction the ski is pointing by swivelling your feet). Any turn is a mix - in varying proportion - of these. In soft sticky snow you need a smaller proportion of rotation relative to the other two.

I don't get it....

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When it's really soft, I ski the slush as if it's powder - not quite as stupid as it seems as in both you'll find that ski's can't be forced to turn, edges aren't as much use as normal on a prepared piste, balance/rhythm are important. You have to let the ski's work and float, not your legs - you'll get tired if you try and fight it.

The trouble with all the super manicured pistes in fantastic condition is that it covers such a multitude of sins of technique....

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ah, thannks, rob@rar - the idea of pushing more against the soft snow on a steeper slope rather than turning the ski (or, as Okanagen points out, swivelling the feet) makes a lot of sense. Will give that a go later this week.

And no, flangesax, funny sarcasm from you but it doesn't apply to this Swiss-based skiier! Intermediate I said and intermediate I am - just having problems with all this lovely sun on my local south facing slopes ... Smile

You know it makes sense.

thanks pendodave - I missed your post which you must have been writing at the same time as mine ... your suggestions on powder also make sense - would that mean also staying low on the skis through the turn (kind of like pam w's suggestion of 'carrying a tray of drinks') rather than standing up to unweight them?

and I agree about laziness on manicured pistes, especially with all the great snow this season ... that's why I'm trying really hard to improve technique to be a really GOOD skiier on reds and some blacks and being able to handle all kinds of snow and weather - just starting on some powder this year, when its available, but somehow, that doesn't phase me as much as soft snow ... go figure. Even icy slopes and near white outs don't affect me like soft snow does. In any event, I know I will never be a super skiier, but being able to descend gracefully on most slopes in most weather would be a real joy. Technique and confidence, that's what I think it takes.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

pendodave
Quite, Slush = poor man's Powder.

flangesax, very brave (and true) but don't forget who's paying your wages will you. Toofy Grin

An Austrian work colleague said he could "ski a bit" and was taking a ski test. Found out later it was the speed test and he was only 0.01 seconds slower than the course time (set by a proper skier, part of the Staatlicher geprüfter skilehrer test I believe).

Skied in 10 deg C last Friday, made sure the skis were well waxed and even took top up wax. More equal weighted carving (as in powder) and plenty of flexing (as in the bumps) seemed to work best.

A snowHead

re. pistes and technique - When my kids had a lesson this year, the instructor took them off the piste onto some skied out off-piste. He said it was the quickest way to get them to understand that what they were doing wasn't quite correct as on all the pistes they could just get away with it.

One other thing (within reason) is that personally I find that a certain amount of speed is your friend in the slush. Otherwise the inconsistency of the slush-pack mucks around with your balance and you need some velocity to keep the skis turning (because you can't use your feet to do it).

Ultimately, you have to be sensible in the slush though and bale out to a down-lift if you get tired. The other nasty similarity with powder is that without edge grip the 'slow motion' loss of control that you get when falling mean that bindings don't release as well as in 'normal' piste condictions which leaves knee and ankle ligaments to take the strain.

A snowHead

DB, I know.. .sometimes my beautiful and sparkling personality does like to shine through!... I just get very confused with self-ratings... M;, ski more off piste than on, can handle all snow types and all pistes available to me round these 'ere parts, am a qualified instructor and work for the local school, do around 40 to 50 days per year - when asked about my ability I am occassionaly brave enough to say I am a 'good' skier.... scary stuff!

tartegnin, sorry, no sarcasm intended!

Keep low, keep forward, keep short snappy turning - awesome fun!

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I think the comparison with powder skiing is a good one. Unless your technique in powder is very good indeed, it is for most of us very tiring. Similarly if you are not used to skiing slush you should expect it to be much harder work than normal piste conditions and you will find it tougher to ski the pitch lengths that you would in good conditions.

For anyone unused to skiing slush I would suggest that you lower your expectations a little and accept that you will have to ski shorter stretches at a time and/or take slightly longer rests.

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pendodave, I don't understand your comments on no edge grip in slush. I find there's LOADS - hence why you can really crank up your edge angles, without worrying about losing grip (as you could on ice).

OP, I find there's two ways to ski slush. Big edge angles, fast carving, and railing around every turn on your edges means you present less surface area to the snow so don't stick. Smash through anything in the way. Awesome fun. Or go a bit old school, active legs, lots of flexion and extension (almost unweighting yourself), short pivoty turns, dance down the slope, using all the bumps and features. Awesome fun.

I love slush!

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Learn to snowboard. Honestly. Slush = 'utter hilarity' rather than 'broken knees'.

I had a grim day on Saturday in the wettest heaviest snow I've ever found, even compared to skiing in late April. Spent all day wishing I'd taken the board out instead Smile

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I love slush too, because it allows me to be "a bit old school" without getting yelled at for being old school. Toofy Grin

On the big lumps of soft snow I try to do compression turns, with a variable degree of success.

rob@rar, you mean you don't know?... Book some lessons and you might find out Wink

and for the rest of you just google any images of pro skiers doing short turns and you may notice that they are quite low.

You know it makes sense.

For a little non-technique help in slush, you could try using Zardoz. Won't last all day in these conditions but it's easy enough to carry with you and reapply as necessary.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

What that sequence is showing is lateral extension, rather than vertical extension - with the effect that the body stays low, which is presumably what flangesax means.

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whew - all very interesting and even useful! with all this lovely sun, it looks like we'll all have a chance to try out the various techniques. My biggest take aways on technique: stay low, push/flex/extend instead of rotate, nice big carving turns and deal with getting tired faster. On the confidence side, speed seems to be key, and of course I've done the opposite and hesitate where I should just plow through.

flangesax - special message of "peace" to you ... you were just being funny (and observant, I know! especially this month with week in and week out group of one-off skiiers eager to do black runs at any cost ... even to the rest of us) but I earned my intermediate the hard way and am pretty darned proud of it! So, I guess, quick to take offense. I can ski the slush, but not well, and isn't that the true measure of a skiier: all terrains, all snow, all the time, and with style?

Just trying to confront my slush nemesis here ... thanks for all the tips.

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MTFU and just charge it like the piles of slush aren't there. Bonus you get to spray rooster tails, the faster you go the further they spray

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Assuming you're a one week per year holiday skier, a lot of these posts from instructor demigods seem to overlook the impact of fitness and fatigue. I'll happily ski slush at high speed when my legs are reasonably fresh, but it's pretty unforgiving stuff if you're on the limit with tired legs. You always need to be ready for the next lump of soft, sticky snow, and that's more than a little knackering unless you use those muscles for months at a time. The problem is made worse as slush tends to arrive at the end of the day when you're already tired.

There are few things more demoralising than knowing exactly where you ought to position your legs, torso and arms but lacking the physical strength to get them there. When you hit that point you need either to find something easier to ski down or head straight to the nearest cafe. It's better to ski well the next day than risk over-exertion or, worse, injury.

After all it is free

Jonny Jones, the best thing about using good technique is that it's normally the most efficient way to ski a given set of conditions, meaning you have to expend less effort than if you're trying to muscle your way down the slope. I agree with your advice about not skiing past the point of tiredness, but if you ski well you're likely to push that point to later in the day.

Jonny Jones, if both your skis are properly on edge a lump of soft sticky snow is going to be dispatched like it ain't there! I remember when I was a younger lad on my 203cm Force 9 straight skis having a lesson in Scotland about skiing crap snow, the summary of the morning is in my first line above!

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I'd agree it gets very tiring, and that it's best to know when to give up for the day and sit in a deckchair.

One thing not mentioned, which can make a difference, is what skis you use. Particularly, perhaps, if your technique is not up to that of the instructors or other very experienced people posting here. I recall one set of skis hired in L2A which were very heavy, and felt clumsy at first, but they really charged through the slush. The name escapes me. Something famous that everyone was going on about a few years ago. Stockli, IIRC.

Given the dangers to knees, is it worth mentioning NOT having bindings cranked too high? skiing on-piste slush, which I think is the thing under discussion here, it might be an idea to have them a bit lighter than usual.

As for being "low all the time" that's my problem in bumps - I tend to get lower and lower till there's nowhere to go. Getting the legs down into the hollows (so there's space for them to come up again) is something I have to work really hard at. I have the same problem in powder - I can well recall a French instructor pleading with me to stand up, and not just crouch lower with each turn. Laughing

When I finally managed it - for a maximum of 6 turns at a time - it did work quite well.

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ski technique for soft snow?

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