 Poster: A snowHead
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stevomcd,
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Big queues - even if you skip to the front, the skiing's still going to suck.
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Not at Cairngorm last weekend. The queues were big due to the limited and slow uplift. The skiing was absolutely phenomenal, and the slopes were very quiet (probably because 90% of the skiers were queueing at any given time  )
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| primoz, most resorts have a system that allows queue jumping for ski school pupils which includes private lessons, otherwise most of the lesson time could be spent in line. |
Never saw any in Austria, Italy, Slovenia, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden and Finland. But it's also true, I pretty never go skiing in France outside of sliding down the course for races. But then there's always separate lift access anyway... if that lift is even open for public.
Personally I don't really care about "otherwise most of the lesson time could be spent in line". I can say exactly same for myself... otherwise most of my skiing time (for which I paid ticket) would be spent in line. I don't see much of difference between someone paying for ticket and someone paying for instructor. My money is worth just as much as someone elses, so if I can wait in line, he/she can wait in line too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| primoz wrote: |
| I don't see much of difference between someone paying for ticket and someone paying for instructor. My money is worth just as much as someone elses, so if I can wait in line, he/she can wait in line too. |
Don't be silly. The difference is that someone has paid for the instructor AND the lift pass, and a lesson is of a much more limited length than the all-day lift pass - what's the point of having a lesson if you're just standing in a queue? What will you learn? You say it's not your problem if someone can't ski... well it will be if that person then careers into you and injures you because they haven't had any lessons.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Interesting thread and would have been even more interesting for any takers who said they would pay for priority pass- would want to know where they go so could avoid there.
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It would only be worth paying for if you perceived a benefit. For example, some people pay for priority boarding on EasyJet etc yet I see no benefit to doing it so don't pay for it (often it merely gets you onto the bus to the aircraft first, which is then filled up by others, meaning you get off the bus last and therefore don't have the pick of the seats in any event). Similarly you can pay for priority security checks at the airport but once again I see no benefit - if you leave it late enough to go through security you get rushed through anyway 
So a pass that let you go to the front of the lift queue would be of considerable value BUT only if it didn't carry with it the problems detailed above. IMHO the deal breaker would be that everyone would have one - meaning there was no benefit anymore.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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miranda, I'm not silly, I'm just realistic. I, and most likely whole lot of others, just think it's not really my problem if someone pays for instructor. On hill, we both pay for lift ticket and we are equal. If you have instructor with you or not, you pay for exactly same for lift ticket, so I have no idea why those with instructors should have advantage.
I'm also all for it, that there are some "training" hills, which are closed for people without instructors, or where those with instructors have priority, but it's totally ridiculous, to expect this all over the hill. If we go this way, we can also say that all racers have priority too, afterall what do they get from training if they need to wait in lines. If we go (only) this far, I can tell you, you wouldn't make a single run on Molltal glacier, where about 70% of skiers are racers. You would be standing in line for all day long, yet it doesn't happen, since racers, including top 5 WC racers, are patiently waiting for their turn to come. And if someone, who just won overall WC can wait for his turn to sit on chairlift, I guess someone with ski instructor can do the same.
But as I said, I never saw these "ski school priority thing" anywhere where I normally ski, so I don't need to bother. But I also know on the other side, I wouldn't come skiing somewhere, where everyone with 2 minutes extra time would jump lines. I don't mind having priority lines, when you pay extra for that. Afterall, there are people flying in first/business class too, and they have different priorities and "priorities" over economy class, but they pay for it. Once tickets would cost same, I would demand exactly same service for my money too. So I don't think I'm silly.
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primoz, not everyone on the mountain pays the same for their lift ticket anyway, at least not around here. And those paying for a lesson are given priority lift lines as a courtesy from the resort for spending more money than the rest of the public. Some people take a private lesson specifically so they can cut the line. A WC skier has the choice, just like any other member of the public, whether to pay extra to ski with an instructor and cut, or to take her chance.
And I guess you won't be skiing much in the US - we have cut lines for ski school and ski patrol.
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It's a two way concession. If there wasn't a ski-school offering instruction then I'm sure the resort would be far quieter and the lift companies would lose money hand over fist. The ski school will want to maximise instruction time, and the only place time is consistently lost is in queuing for the lifts. Seems like a pretty easy concession for the lift company to make. It doesn't cost them any money over the price of a few signs, poles and netting to create the priority channel.
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Considering they don't know anything like this in any of countries I normally ski, and considering most of lift companies doing pretty good without such things, I don't think any of these arguments hold much of water Feef 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Usually on snowheads, when you try to find out what a resort is like, the loyal patrons of that resort will always defend and say they have never even seen a queue there!
Now we got a real passionate argument that ski schools shouldn't be allowed skip queue. But if queues are so small and insignificant, then why should it matter?
C'monprimoz, name and shame resorts with long queues
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The skiing was absolutely phenomenal, and the slopes were very quiet (probably because 90% of the skiers were queueing at any given time
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the converse can also be true. My daughter and BF - both experienced skiers (and teachers) skied in Flaine in February half term a few years ago. They said the lifts got people up the mountain v efficiently and queues weren't a problem. But the pistes were absolutely rammed - especially as all the lower parts of the GM area had little or no snow. They said they were both really scared, for the first time ever, of collisions on-piste.
I try to avoid busy times/lifts but I don't find the ski school priority irksome - it's a fact of life where I ski and they only take alternative spaces. I don't object to helping little kids, either; they can be very sweet.
No, I wouldn't pay extra for priority access and yes, I think I would feel resentful at being queue-jumped by the "first class ticket holders". I have no problems on planes if some people want to spent 10 times the money to arrive at exactly the same time.
However, I am surprised that in the areas I ski in (almost all France, these days) there seems to little response to the elasticity of demand. Why don't they raise lift prices in the very busy weeks - people pay at least twice as much for accommodation in those weeks, after all. Seems a basic commercial principle.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In the past, the mountain where I work has relied very heavily on the revenue that the ski school generates - and paying for an instructor to cut lines on a powder day is a part of this. Why should a guest who is paying an extra $600/day have to stand in line and waste time when there is a system that gives him priority. Without the cut lines I think the ski school would loose custom - people would ski elsewhere for their lessons. And our race teams aren't allowed to cut lines, even with their coaches.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| patricksh wrote: |
| C'monprimoz, name and shame resorts with long queues |
It depends what long queues are for someone. I try to ski as much when people still don't ski (early mornings, December, January), but for me waiting for 5min is long queue. And you can find this pretty much everywhere later on in February. Sure with a bit of planning you can avoid this even in February, but sometimes it just doesn't go. And for my taste, by far the worse thing is Alta Badia and resorts around Sella Ronda. And I'm there when it's "deserted" (December for WC races), so I really can't imagine how it would be when it's top season.
Besides... if there's no queue, why would someone bother to skip it? If there are no lines, then there would be absolutely no reason for this discussion anyway. Considering we still do have this discussion, I would say there are long lines
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Coronet Peak in NZ has an exclusive invite only club, that gives priority on lifts - straight up the ski school queue, and then to the front of that.
In addition there is priority parking, right outside the base building, and a private lounge, away from the plebs.
Costs about $7k a season - roughly 10 times the cost of a normal season pass, for a pretty average mountain.
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You know it makes sense.
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Just getting back to OP- don't forget problem in many places is slow lifts, and that's what creates queues. It wouldn't IM0 be reasonable to charge extra for priority pass for bockety slow lifts. In resorts like les Arcs, with mix of slow and fast lifts, irony is there is never queue for slow lifts anyway, probably simply because most people avoid them (this often means pistes served by slow lifts are in great shape and less crowded)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I thought it was pretty much a universal thing that instructors had priority in lift queues, but seems not in all the places primoz goes. But I think the point of this is pretty obvious in that if the resort is crowded then who is going to bother paying for lessons without some guarantee of actually getting up the hill? It's a commercial selling point for the ski schools and personally I don't have any problem with that. Ski school clients pay for a basic lift pass like everyone else and the lesson effectively comes with a priority lift pass as part of the deal. Where's the problem with that unless you are sore just because you had to queue up for an extra minute or two? I've never been anywhere where ski schools have significantly added to the overall lift queues.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've skied VT, Les Arcs, and some of the the Flachau resorts - all the places so far had ski instructor priority lanes. I thought they were 'just one of those things' that happened.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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all the places so far had ski instructor priority lanes
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Yeah pretty sure everywhere I've been to (in France, anyway) had ski school lanes. Not got a problem with that at all - much less annoying than people who elbow through in front of you to the gate, only to stop and not fill the chair up becasue they want to sit with their friends. That's irritating where there is a queue but chair after chair going up with spare seats - the US idea of a singles lane is a good one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I find that if you get out early and get up high (what I prefer to do) you miss all the schools anyway, it can be annoying if you mis-judge it and end up at the bottom of the lifts hen all the lessons are starting though
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primoz, you've never seen an instructor priority queue in Italy? With eyesight like yours, should you be skiing?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kat.ryb, that makes me cross too. Even with my kids the moment they could manage a chair safely enough my instructions on a busy chair has been to 'fill the spaces kids - regroup at the top' - after all if instructors dump a 3/4 yr old on the edge of a chair next to you and expect them to cope I can't see any reason why skiers of any age need to sit to next to anyone special if lifts are busy. Though that said I have sometimes felt the need just to give the really tiny ones a bit of a 'lift' off a chair at the top when it didn't look as though they were 'going' - it's the ones that say it's their first chair lift ride that scare me!!! Our group got collared with one that lost their ski at Easter - our front group got the kid and one ski - apparently she wanted to get off!! We got the spare ski to take up and put her back together at the top 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, families with little kids trying to stay together is a little more forgivable than mates unable to be parted from their friends for the chair ride
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Megamum, families with little kids trying to stay together is a little more forgivable than mates unable to be parted from their friends for the chair ride |
Then they shouldn't be elbowing their way to the front as Megamum experienced.
I can understand a group would WISH to sit together. I just don't quite understand this need to result in half empty chairs.
In the US, it's done by a lift attendant (or 2), to control which group (single, two, three, four etc) gets to go next. At the minimum, a single's line next to the loading spot would pretty much ensure almost no chair will go with any empty spot.
I haven't skied in Europe when it's very busy so I can't say. But in the US, in chairs that has no attendant, but with a single's line, I've often just glided up to the front and filling whatever empty spot that avail itself. Some people who don't quite like it (I guess they wanted the extra space on the chair). But they really don't have a say since I'm on the chair before they realized it! 
To the original question of "priority pass", it'll never happen. What resort would ADVERTISE it has such long line you need to pay extra to not having to wait for 1/2 an hour? And if any resort try it, it would means it become extra slow for the non-priority pass holders. So who would pay full price and wait extra long time?
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Pay for Priority is an obscene idea.
Is this some sort of RyanAir plan to get into the sale of lift Tickets?
Priority should be reserved for importand/critical use only.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| primoz, you've never seen an instructor priority queue in Italy? With eyesight like yours, should you be skiing? |
Not in Dolomiti, and those few places around Slovenian border (Tarvisio, Sella Nevea) at least, but I agree I don't really like skiing in Italy all that much, so I don't have much experiences with other places.
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| primoz wrote: |
| I never saw these "ski school priority thing" anywhere where I normally ski, so I don't need to bother. But I also know on the other side, I wouldn't come skiing somewhere, where everyone with 2 minutes extra time would jump lines. |
If there's no line, everyone is "top priority"!
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| I don't mind having priority lines, when you pay extra for that. Afterall, there are people flying in first/business class too, and they have different priorities and "priorities" over economy class, but they pay for it. |
Ski school students pay for it too, over the normal lift ticket. Just like first class flyers gets to jump the line at check in, so do ski schools. It's the privilege upon paying (hugely) for the "higher class" product.
The purpose of ski school jumping lines is because they pay for INSTRUCTION time. Say, if they paid for 2 hrs of lesson, having them wait in line for 1/2 hr each run will mean they only get 30 minutes of instruction in those 2 hrs time! That's not fair, don't you think? The alternative is for the instructor to spend 4 hrs with the student in order to do 2 hrs of actual instruction. But that's not fair to the instructors whose earning will be cut in half especially during peak period.
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| So I don't think I'm silly. |
Everybody THINK so about themselves. But it takes some conviction to SAY that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abc, you seriously don't get this thing. No they don't pay extra. They pay instructor, not lift ticket. They paid exactly same 40eur for ticket, as I did. This what you are telling is same as someone, who paid more for their skis, would have priority over those who payed less. Ski instructor and lift tickets are two completely different things, if you don't get it. First class plane ticket and economy ticket are not. If nothing else... ski instructors are not tied to ski resort, and in 99% of cases, have NOTHING to do with lift companies. I can get group of skiers, and I can take them to any ski resort in Slovenia or Austria (actually I could really do this since I have proper certification), so what would be lift company's profit from this, except 2, 3, 5 or 20 tickets? Why would me and my group deserve priority over everyone else? Because I would earned X eur from this? Fine, maybe I will be my wife's "instructor" when I see first "ski school priority line"
If someone pays instruction time, I pay for skiing time, so what's difference? He paid more? Maybe, but maybe I'm in 5 star hotel, so I paid few 1000eur for week of holidays, and I don't want to lose time standing in line either.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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primoz, it really depends on which country you are in. Where I work the guest pays extra for the lesson to the resort - they DO NOT pay the instructor (that would be 'undergrounding' and is punishable by law), and the instructor IS employed by the resort.
Oh, and ages 0 - 4 and 75+, and active duty military get free tickets - should they not get on the lifts at all?
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| primoz wrote: |
| ... ski instructors are not tied to ski resort, and in 99% of cases, have NOTHING to do with lift companies. |
True in Europe, absolutely untrue in US & Canada.
BTW I agree with your fundamental point that ski lessons shouldn't have priority but I wouldn't expect any ski school to give up the privilege. It is also a feature of race clubs that don't focus heavily on discipline that brats will jump lines because they "assume" they are above normal punters. Seen this in many places.
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You know it makes sense.
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| primoz wrote: |
| Ski instructor and lift tickets are two completely different things, if you don't get it. First class plane ticket and economy ticket are not. |
The only thing NOT different about first class and economy is they're in the same plane, albeit different section of the plane. They have different food, different drink, different seat size.
In your example, of yourself an "instructor" for your wife, is the perfect illustration. You're not tied to the mountain so you don't get the priority. But if you're an instructor for a school that's tied to the mountain, by their negociation to obtain that priority, you would then have ties to the mountain! How tenacious that "tie" is not important. There is simply a tie!
There're airlines without any first class sections. There's no priority in those. Ski mountain may also run ski schools as in the US and Canada. Just because European moutains choose not to run ski school like in North America doesn't mean there're no ties.
What you're not getting is the fact ski schools DO have lift previlege, even in Europe. And you're ignorant of it and look rather silly as a result.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Primoz - given you seem to follow the WC, do you think it reasonable that a big chunk of mountain should be closed to lift pass holders (reducing the available piste) so the race can take place? After all, they've paid the same as if the race wasn't on so surley should get the full piste? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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martinm, ha ha ha
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| martinm wrote: |
| Primoz - given you seem to follow the WC, do you think it reasonable that a big chunk of mountain should be closed to lift pass holders (reducing the available piste) so the race can take place? After all, they've paid the same as if the race wasn't on so surley should get the full piste? |
I certainly agree, that people shouldn't pay full price if half of ski area is closed. Happy with my answer? I guess not, since most likely you expected I will say something else.
But then again... in most of places, you don't need to pay ticket for seeing race, yet you can still see it if you have lift ticket. And WC ticket can easily be price of a lift ticket. But no matter what, if I would go (just) skiing there, I would want to get same service for my (same) money, as any other day, when there's no race. If I don't like things the way they are, I don't go skiing there. Same as I said, I wouldn't go skiing there, where everyone with 2 minutes time would jump line. So until they don't put this "ski school priority" thing into life there where I ski, I really don't care. But it still doesn't mean I agree with it.
And since we are talking about racing... racers normally don't get priority on lifts, yet they pay (and not little) extra to be able to have training on hill. They don't pay just lift tickets but a lot more, yet they normally wait in lines like everyone else. I still don't get idea, why ski schools should be any different... especially on places (majority of places where I ski) where they are not tied to lift companies.
PS: I believe that anyone of you, who regularly use ski school services is totally against my point of view, for everyone else...
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