 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| that my good fellow was a boot seller not a boot fitter |
As I stood there in the boots telling him they were hurting my feet and not hearing any offer of a solution coming from him, I came to that very conclusion. This, despite the fact that the retailer in question has had positive reviews on here.
Anyway, back to the drawing board for me!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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queen bodecia, with diminished sensation it sounds like the liner was a bigger problem than the shell, perhaps an intuition/palau liner would work better (it is a completely heat mouldable liner which is a complete wrap of the foot, we use them a lot for diabetics and other nerve/circulatory issues)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CEM, agreed, the liners are way too small, the shell is probably workable. But it's cheaper and easier for me to buy new bigger, softer (or easier opening) boots than faff around with new liners, more shell stretching, etc. I've used hire boots a few times in the last few years (i.e. when I've been unable to get my boots on, my boots have been elsewhere and before I bought these ones) and had no issues at all.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jamesson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| that my good fellow was a boot seller not a boot fitter |
As I stood there in the boots telling him they were hurting my feet and not hearing any offer of a solution coming from him, I came to that very conclusion. This, despite the fact that the retailer in question has had positive reviews on here. |
Without wishing to single you out, not so long ago someone else came on here and made a random comment not too dissimilar about a boot fitter that was recommended by snowHeads and who posted here from time to time. I think it created some tension for those fitters that were caught in the general sights of the remarks.
I think it might be worth either stating for the record who it was, or perhaps PM'ing the person privately to discuss the matter rather than create confusion/concern amongst the fitting fraternity as was the case last time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jamesson,
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As long as it was the right boot for you, then great. But if you've tried on two different ones and neither fit you properly then it would be nice to have some more to choose from!
The boot fitter I dealt with didn't say that either pair was right for me, nor did he say explicitly that he didn't have the right pair and that I would be better trying another stockist so I thought better of it. |
jamesson, Like many of the other posters I have used a few boot fitters in the past, often trying on a few pairs that I liked the look of and then some recommended by fitters etc.
My last visit was to CEM at Solution4feet where I recall trying on two pairs but critically being offered only the right pair that would suit me. It would be pointless for me to buy a pair that were not set up to fit me perfectly nor would it make any sense, commercial or otherwise for CEM to offer me an inferior alternative.
I'm rather puzzled why you'd want to try on ten pairs that are ill suited and probably (in the fitters opinion) would not fit, when in reality the best solution all round is for a professional to provide you with the perfect solution first time. This would be based on experience, expertise and professionalism: No point in them humouring you by selling you the wrong boot, unless that's what you really want 
The fact that one of your potential boot fitters suggested that you would be better off looking elsewhere was perhaps the best way of delivering a professional Foxtrot Oscar to spare you both further pain, as it's obvious from your posts that you know more about buying and fitting boots than he did 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jivebaby, going back to the OP it's not the fact that I'd want to try on 10 pairs, but rather does having 10 pairs available make it more likely that a shop will find a pair to fit than a shop, which say, might only stock 4 different models. Hence the question - providing that the boots stocked by a shop are carefully selected how many pairs does a shop need available in order to fit the majority of punters? Are you any more likely to get a good fit going to a shop that holds 25 models (if they made that many different types) than a shop which stocks 10. If I wanted to walk away on the day of the visit with a pair to fit, would that be more likely in the shop that stocked 25 different ones than the shop which stocked 10. I think CEM has answered this - he stated that he has available about 15 different boots - which I expect have been chosen with some thought to cover most foot shapes and abilities. Given that he is one of SH de facto boot fitters then I think this is a good guide, and then clearly my local shop with 10 probably has a fair choice to pick from for their customers.
What was interesting was CEM's comment that their are not many ladies designed boots that have significantly different build quality to the mens ones. I guess this leads to the deduction that women don't have specific requirements when it comes to boot fitting. What I have noticed since buying mine (and I suspect mine weren't 'women's' ones - Head 8.8's) is the changes there have been in designs particularly aimed at the women's market. In particular this move towards 'fluffy' topped liners - I must confess to looking at these and wondering about their wearability/longevity in the face of getting squashed and damp.
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Megamum, I've about 100 days on a pair of boots with "fluffy" topped liners - they are still looking and feeling good! However, I changed boots to get more performance, so no longer use the fluffy ones.... 
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Slight tangent, but why do boot fitters hold stock of any boots? If they know you will fit a boot based on a quick inspection and discussion, why don't they have two appointment systems - you book your first appointment, they have a good old look at your feet, order the boot that you need in the size that you need as agreed with you, and then you go back to have it fitted.
That way they don't have to hold lots of stock, they could work out of a smaller premises that doesn't need to hold as much stock, and the customer gets the boot they need in two quick visits, payment is taken for the first appointment and the cost of the boot on visit one based on the consultation, and then for any further work required at the second one when the customer collects and gets their boot fitted.
If a bootfitter knows what they are doing, isn't that how it should happen? Obviously they have return agreements with suppliers, like most people in retail, so if a customer buys a boot but never turns up they can return it, or just sell it to the next customer that needs that particular model in that particular size, instead of having to keep a stock of 30 different models in 10 different sizes. Why compete with the pile it high sell it cheap merchants?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, my latest/last pair of boots came with lovely creamy coloured sheepskin type liners - which got discarded by CEM in favour of Zipfits.
Couldn't bear just to throw them away so brought them home thinking maybe they would fit in my wellies etc etc - so they hung around here for a few months before I did throw them out.
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skinanny, they clearly last longer than I would have expected then. Pamski, It always goes against the grain to have to discard something that seems quite serviceable/new - I am the same. I must admit to not being in to all this 'girly' ski gear. Men's stuff always seems to be better quality and longer lasting, I guess the construction of things like skis and boots possibly doesn't change, but somehow the flowers and swirls and fluffy liners aren't really me. I also prefer the cut of a mans jacket, which normally has so much more length in it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, my understanding was that women's specific boots have a lower rear cuff for women's wider calves but other than that are pretty much identical to men's boots (disregarding girlie graphics/colours of course). Of course I might be totally wrong here, it's just the marketing waffle I've seen with women's specific boots.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, I accept your point that fitters, even CEM/Solutions4feet may stock a significant number of boots, however the reason for holding a vast range/stock is to fit many people and to give the boot fitter the best chance of supplying the correct boot. That means in practical terms the actual number of boots held is stock is completely irrelevant, as each pair will be critically different and only one pair from his entire stock is likely to delivery the prefect solution for you at any one point in time. Ergo,CEM will measure, consider, pontificate (maybe?) and if your stars are aligned produce a pair ready to customise on the spot.
For example we visited a few weeks ago - there were dozens of pairs in the shop however after measuring, talking through requirements etc the ideal pair were not available. We are on the list and will return in September when the new stock arrives and no more than two pairs will be offered before customisation takes place. I'm very happy with my pair supplied around that time last year and really wouldn't want Mrs Jivebaby to have anything less in terms of quality/service/expertise. bad enough having to put up with me, and I don't want CEM to suggest I look elsewhere because we pointlessly want to try on 10-15 pairs that won't fit! I'll leave that option for an expert
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Jivebaby, I don't think anywhere in this thread I have suggested that I want to pointlessly try on 10-15 different pairs
My point is that if there is a larger number to pick that 2 from then I imagine that there is a greater chance of your bootfitter finding those 2 pairs on the first visit. The question that CEM has answered is how many different boots will a store hold in order to make that choice from.
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You know it makes sense.
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Monium, in answer to your question
because the suppliers make boots to fulfil the orders placed by shops + a % over, they simply don't /can't take all the risk, instead as a retailer you have to order 6 months ahead of she you will get the delivery or gamble on them having something that you want left in stock...in most cases (and i completely agree) if you don't place a forward order you cannot just have an on spec order
if you are thinking well if dale boot can do it why can't everyone else, basically because they have 2 core models + one other rather than the 20-30 variations that most companies produce
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| CEM wrote: |
| there are probably less than 40 current ski boot lasts on the planet |
...and none of them are shaped like a human foot 
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Poster: A snowHead
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40:7000,000,000 is asking a bit much.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CEM, I can see how that benefits the manufacturer, but what if the big manufacturers backed boot fitters by doing it this way, and then big retailers did it the "traditional" way? I guess because it wouldn't shift as many boots - you buy one pair of boots that just fits and works, and that's the only boot you buy for 3/4 years (if ever) as opposed to the current system where everyone gets fairly badly fitted boots at the regular retailers, and has to buy 2 or 3 pairs before they ever really get it right, every time they need new boots...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Chasseur wrote: |
| jamesson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| that my good fellow was a boot seller not a boot fitter |
As I stood there in the boots telling him they were hurting my feet and not hearing any offer of a solution coming from him, I came to that very conclusion. This, despite the fact that the retailer in question has had positive reviews on here. |
Without wishing to single you out, not so long ago someone else came on here and made a random comment not too dissimilar about a boot fitter that was recommended by snowHeads and who posted here from time to time. I think it created some tension for those fitters that were caught in the general sights of the remarks.
I think it might be worth either stating for the record who it was, or perhaps PM'ing the person privately to discuss the matter rather than create confusion/concern amongst the fitting fraternity as was the case last time.
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I don't think it's a good idea to state who it was. I don't want to get in to a slanging match or put people off going to visit this retailer. Everyone should make up their own minds. In any case, I have no idea what their logon name is here so couldn't PM them anyway.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jivebaby wrote: |
jamesson,
| Quote: |
As long as it was the right boot for you, then great. But if you've tried on two different ones and neither fit you properly then it would be nice to have some more to choose from!
The boot fitter I dealt with didn't say that either pair was right for me, nor did he say explicitly that he didn't have the right pair and that I would be better trying another stockist so I thought better of it. |
jamesson, Like many of the other posters I have used a few boot fitters in the past, often trying on a few pairs that I liked the look of and then some recommended by fitters etc.
My last visit was to CEM at Solution4feet where I recall trying on two pairs but critically being offered only the right pair that would suit me. It would be pointless for me to buy a pair that were not set up to fit me perfectly nor would it make any sense, commercial or otherwise for CEM to offer me an inferior alternative.
I'm rather puzzled why you'd want to try on ten pairs that are ill suited and probably (in the fitters opinion) would not fit, when in reality the best solution all round is for a professional to provide you with the perfect solution first time. This would be based on experience, expertise and professionalism: No point in them humouring you by selling you the wrong boot, unless that's what you really want
The fact that one of your potential boot fitters suggested that you would be better off looking elsewhere was perhaps the best way of delivering a professional Foxtrot Oscar to spare you both further pain, as it's obvious from your posts that you know more about buying and fitting boots than he did |
I didn't want to try on ten pairs that were ill suited, I wanted to try on one pair that fitted properly. I have no intention of buying the wrong boot, which was what I was offered.
I don't pretend to know more about buying and fitting boots than anyone else, but I know when the boots I'm wearing hurt my feet, which was the case here after just a few minutes. Given that the fitter in question wouldn't offer anything else to help, what other option is there than to leave and try someone else?
But thanks for the advice and the assumptions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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CEM, didnt NakedZooKeeper used to work in Essex? I have a few people interested in boots (but not that interested to drive to Bicester sadly) and would like to point them in the right direction... any recommendations east of london?
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skimottaret, he used to but last i heard he was sailing around europe crewing on large boats
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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not how a few people have read it but hey ho
the worry is that one of the boots you tried could have been the right one.... i think the problem came when the fitter couldn't offer you a solution..... now was that because it was the wrong boot or because the fitter didn't have a solution....i have no idea.... where was the problem, and what was the boot model, might be able to shed some light on it, but without seeing your feet it is a tough one to know (there are however a few boot models where particular problems are seen frequently)
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jamesson, Did you ask for a solution? It might just be people reading stuff in or out of your posts you haven't said but it reads like a fairly common experience - I was offered 2 , both hurt therefore I concluded the bootfitter was an idiot and/or blagging me because he disn't have the right boot. Personally knowing what I know now I'd have asked were there any other boots that he didn't have that might be a better fit, was any of the pain irrelevant because it could be removed in the fitting process etc etc.
CEM gets positive reviews because he's robust enough to "coerce" people into boots which work for them against the better instincts of their wallets, convenience or it some instances even his immediate sales, but for most consumers used to retail sales staff being flim flam merchants it's certainly a different experience.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hi fatbob. I told him the boots were hurting, where they were hurting and asked if he had any other boots I could try. He didn't have anything else in stock in my size (I'm either a size 8 or 9 depending on the shoe so a pretty common size). That being the case, I asked him if these were the best boots for me and he was fairly indifferent about it. I asked if there were other boots which would be a better starting point and he said there might be, but again, he was indifferent about it and offered no suggestions.
By this point I got the feeling that he wasn't overly interested in finding the right boots for me so I said I'd think about it and left.
Genuinely at no point did I think he was an idiot, or that I knew better than him, he just didn't seem too bothered and it's too important a purchase to get wrong so I decided not to buy.
I don't have problem feet and have worn dozens of hire boots over the years with no problems (I know hire boots are 'sloppy' compared to properly fitted boots, but I'd take that over pain any day) so I wouldn't have thought it would be too difficult to find something that worked for me. CEM even said the chap sounded like a boot seller, not a fitter!
CEM - the boots I was offered were Head (I didn't catch the model name but they were white and red) and I'd never heard of the other pair but they were bright red all over. I don't know if that helps you identify them or not!
I'm not here to disparage anyone and I certainly don't think I know better than a trained boot fitter, I'm just reporting honestly what my experience of that fitting session was. Sorry if I've got anyone's backs up as that was not my intention.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jamesson, at a guess the head boot was an Edge or possibly a vector, might be an older model as i can't remember there being a white/red one this last season (i could well be wrong) as for the fully red one, again could be a salomon falcon from a few years ago or one of a load of other red boots, (we tend to avoid red boots at recreational levels as they tend to be rejected as being too bright so i could have missed a load of boots which they could have been
but based on that nothing that jumps out at me as a known common pain/problem
however you should know that if they were red they would be very quick, red boots are definitely the fastest (not always the most comfortable, but quick none the less)
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| jamesson wrote: |
As I stood there in the boots telling him they were hurting my feet and not hearing any offer of a solution coming from him, I came to that very conclusion. This, despite the fact that the retailer in question has had positive reviews on here.
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| jamesson wrote: |
with regards to Chasseur's post, all I said was I didn't think it was a good idea to name and shame.
What's wrong with that? |
I am sure that there are no bad intentions but it is left open to conjecture who the negative feedback is for. As far as I can tell it could be any bootfitter who has received a positive review on snowheads and that is a little bit unfair.
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You know it makes sense.
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Elston, wasn't me guv, not got any red boots except race ones 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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jamesson, fair enough but if you can try to see a recommended person next time. That might be going to see geezer xxx at company yyy but at least you would hope that this means your not seeing someone on a work experience placement. I know I am exaggerating a bit but I am sure you get the idea.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I see where you're coming from. I would have thought that as the company seems to be highly thought of, all the staff would be trained to a particular level meaning you should still get a good product, but I take your point completely about going to see the fitter and not the company.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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42.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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jamesson, got slots in the diary but not much stock other than race boots, we have a few bits and pieces but definitely more limited then in season, happy to take a look and see what will work, if there is a bargain to be had then great.
as for the fitter verses the shop, definitely the way to go, if you have 10 members of staff there is not going to be all 10 of them trained to the same level!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| CEM wrote: |
we tend to avoid red boots at recreational levels as they tend to be rejected as being too bright so i could have missed a load of boots which they could have been
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I would totally wear red boots, they would make me look more gaperish than I already do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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At our place The Alpine Room, Essex we do have a good choice of boot across the recreational range for both men and women. We leave the race boots to other people. At the start of the season we could probably have offered a choice of about 35+ mens boots and 25+ womens boots across 4 different brands - at varying levels from beginner to advanced - Obviously there would be no way we would 'offer' that range to any individual as what suits you depends VASTLY on your skiing experience, fitness, foot / leg issues, height / weight etc. Obviously not all of those are 'this seasons' boots, and also - at this stage in the season (ie after Easter) we may not be able to offer every boot in every size - but clearly most people don't need 'every boot'. Normally we would narrow the range to a maximum of about 4 suitable boots and aim to offer at least 2 different boots for comparison purposes. We use a range of foot analysis , stance analysis and fitting techniques to help ascertain what boots will suit best. We frequently recommend a custom footbed to correct stance issues, and solve problems such as underfoot cramping. With people with specific foot problems we offer a range of boots including Custom Shell and Tecnica Airshell and as a matter of course we would customise boots for people with major issues such as bunions, including shells or liners. We emphasise that we have an ongoing refitting service and recommend that customers return to us once they have skied their boots to ensure that we have an opportunity to 'finesse' the boot and address anything that wasn't apparent at fitting. I would say that budget has to be secondary consideration - but we wouldn't try to talk anyone into a more technical, advanced, or expensive boot than they really need.
I am concerned that queen bodecia, has not been happy with the boots we fitted her and have PMed her to hopefully get a bit more feedback and look into the issues off-forum and investigate how we dealt with her fitting and any ongoing refits at the time. After CEM, and Profeet we were one of the first retailers to take up BSBA accrediation & additional training and our main technician has been bootfitting for over 30 years. Clearly techniques and boot technologies change over time, and I am one of the 'newer' recruits, bootfitting now on a regular basis for over 5 years (I have been a Saturday girl here for about the last 20 years!).
CEM, did raise some very valid points - as a bootfitter the feedback you give us during a bootfitting is VERY subjective and sometimes needs quite a lot of psychoanalysis, and physical checking to get to the bottom of it. In addition a bootfitter has not control over the way in which a person skis once they leave the shop - With the skiers we see we often have to issue the advice to get some MORE tuition & unlearn those sloppy habits.
Thanks
PS Also wouldn't mind if the chap who was unhappy with his ski service PMed me.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 18-09-18 11:48; edited 1 time in total
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I think bootfitting is a 2-way process and depends on both the skill and experience of the fitter and the quality of feedback given from the customer. The latter is important because the boots will not feel the same in the shop as they will out on a mountain after a week or two of usage. For example if they feel like carpet slippers out of the box, they will likely end up as sloppy as a sloppy thing from slopsville after a few days use.
My wife went through the experience of buying a pair of boots from CEM at the start of the season and it went very well. She's not very technical, but she gave an honest description of her skiing level and intended usage and what she felt was limiting her performance in her previous boots. There was a bit of head-scratching, a bit more dialogue and then finally 2 options were suggested and the reasons for those suggested options were clearly explained. The chosen pair were a pretty tight fit in the shop to say the least and she was a bit concerned at that point, but decided to go with it based on the advice given. The end result was a perfect fit on the slopes and no problems after 30+ days use.
I think most people end up one way or another with boots that are too big, simply because they are more comfortable during the initial fitting process. I've been there myself.
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tiggerific, a useful post (and brave!), thanks - I hope people will take up your suggestions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I investigated further following the PM from tiggerific at Alpine Room and have since discovered that it was Ski Plus in Chelmsford and not Alpine Room that fitted my boots (the dangers of trusting the google!). So here's a public apology for implicating the wrong shop!
In fairness to Ski Plus, I'm really not able to offer much feedback due to lack of sensation in my legs and feet and lymphoedema means they are prone to swelling, so might never be the same size twice! So they probably did the best they could in the circumstances. I consider I learned a lesson from the whole experience and I definitely know I need bigger boots in future, not a 'performance fit'.
Thanks to all for the advice given.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Megamum, I used a bootfitter in Essex, Alpine Room. Not sure I'd recommend them myself as I ended up with boots that are too small, but I have seen a good many recommendations from others. |
Get them in resort from a respected fitter. Buying them in the UK is a mug's games.
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FAQ
