How much choice does a shop need to successfully fit you? Boots

A snowHead

One of the more obvious but overlooked points: If you walk into a shop and want to buy ski boots there is always the chance that they may not have the right boot for you in stock. A good bootfitter will not sell you a boot that is not going to be right for you. In fact in this situation you will probably walk out of the shop empty handed.

If I am at home (and there is no real urgency to have some nice new boots asap) then there is no real problem because upon the recommendation of the guy sorting out my boots I can either: a) find the right boots online; or b) the shop can order the boot for me. After which I can return at a later date and have them fitted.

However if I am on holiday (and in desperate need of some nice & shiny new boots to use) I might make a sub-optimal decision when choosing which boots to buy. When the right decision would have been to walk away from the shop empty handed.

A snowHead

PJSki, maybe you had better take more care to say what you mean wink

Surely whether you need any more work doing is down to the skill of the person that fitted the boots in the first place, not the number of times you can go back and visit them after a day skiing in resort. Just because it's a ski resort it doesn't necessarily mean that the resident boot fitters will be any more skilled than someone in the UK. Just as there are often experts in other work areas who may not live at the centre of their world either.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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When I first went skiing in the early 70s an Italian bloke threw me a pair of rental boots that conformed to the Approximo sizing system. The plastic was akin to linoleum and the inners were a sort of soggy leatherette and the clips seemed to burst open at the first sign of flexion. Either that or they froze solid. I have no idea if the boots hurt or not because my feet were so bloody cold I wasn't entirely sure if they were still attached. Two pairs of scratchy Norwegian knitted socks (the recommended ensemble at the time) probably didn't help the overall comfort factor. But did I have a great time? Yes, absolutely. Did I progress fast? Yes, because I was young and fit and didn't know any better. It was all innocent and fun. Today there can be no excuse but I think problems stem not from the actual hardware or the fitter but from (a) "overbooting" - people exaggerate their ability level, end up in a boot that's too aggressive for them which can lead to (b) "back seat" performance, tension, toe curling etc and (c) their feet simply aren't used to the pressures exerted on the feet during skiing... which is at higher average speeds these days and you can start again at (b). Some unfortunately reach a conclusion... blame the boots and/or the fitter.

What I do. I change boots rarely (I think some people change way too often). I talk to blokes like CEM who have a look, shell check, discuss the options, mutter some abuse and hand me a cheap Belgian supermarket beer. Then I stick my ageing cork footbeds into the standard liner that came with the boot and see if it works. Hell, sometimes for a laugh I even heat the liners up and follow the procedure. I then go off with the attitude that several kilos of hard plastic and stuff is bound to conflict with soft boney angular things chock full of nerve endings and puny little bits of muscle. Fact is, liners are designed to pack down and feet have to get battle hardened. You can easily over-tweak things, get too anal about it. I say just MTFU or WTFU whichever you prefer, and go ski on them for a good few days.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

If they don't stock Strolz in the wrong shop

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Another significant factor that has been overlooked is that if you buy your boots in a resort, and you're not using one of the aforementioned established and recommended individuals, then what's to say you're getting a fully qualified boot fitter and not just another seasonal staff member who's been shown how to heat up a pair of liners or turn on a conformable machine.

If you buy in the uk, you have far more time to research both the shop and the individual who might be fitting your boots. You can also be reasonably confident that if you do have to go back, that the same person will still be there and not gone 'home' at the end of April or whenever.

To say that a resort boot fitter is better than a boot fitter in the UK is simply wrong. There may be some perceived benefits to buying in the resort, but I believe the other benefits I've outlined above outweigh the few benefits of resort buying.

After all it is free

I can say for the record that CEM, had nothing to do with the fitting of my boots.

PJSki it's horses for courses, but don't tarnish everyone with the same brush because they don't agree with what you see working for you. I would only ever consider buying in resort if my boots physically broke during a holiday, and even then I'd probably resort to hiring for the rest of a holiday and then buying back in the UK - far, far easier to revist a shop in the same country if something is not right IMHO, and the option of returning several years down the road if you need tweaks once the liners have packed down which would be very difficult if you never went back to the same resort.

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Hear hear Feef

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tiggerific, Laughing

Spot on in so many ways

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tiggerific, You are almost certainly right in what you say. However it doesn't make it a customer problem just a market problem that bootfitters (and the design/manufacture industry) needs to deal with.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

CEM, It's just a point that no matter however much the bootfitting profession prescribes stretching exercises, pre-conditioning etc etc there is a significant majority of the European customer base who do treat it as just a holiday and won't necessarily be looking at as something that needs preparation - "make the equipment suit me rather than enable me to get the most from my equipment". Your problem isn't those who ski 50+ days a year, they understand the benefits and limitations of proper bootfitting (although of course there is always the instructors who just buy whatever is cheapest on pro-form wink

); it's those who "never really had a problem with rental boots but felt I should get my own" . I don't really believe in terms of headcount (if not skier days) that people who are really interested in skiing as a sport predominate in Europe.

A snowHead

fatbob, a lot of it is dependant on what the individual wants from the sport..... yes you can compensate for lack of fitness/technique/flexibility to an extent and there are certain boot models that we will always go towards for those people, more upright relaxed stance boots are a must for them, the boot manufacturers just don't see it that way though...i have been pushing with a couple of brands for a few years now to get a boot with a very adjustable forward lean, one which goes from almost upright to a sensible lean angle, this would be a boot fitters dream boot to work with assuming the last shape was reasonable too

for years salomon have insisted on the falcon/X3 last having this nasty 17degree forward lean which pushed the leg on all but the skinniest most flexible skiers too far forward, it is being replaced for next season with a boot with 14degrees of forward lean...great they listened to everyone who was telling them the same thing, but the reasoning for it originally is that that was what the racers wanted...they failed to see that they weren't selling this particular boot to racers

it is a little dammed if you do, dammed if you don't type situation, if the fitter compensates for the "fitness/flexibility /technique or lack thereof by increasing the boot size, then the eventual result is comments like that fitter didn't know what they were doing or why has someone put you into a boot which is big....problem is this very rarely comes back to the place where the boot was sold, it normally ends up in the hands of another fitter/store... for this very reason we keep pretty detailed notes on each boot we sell, if it is up sized there will be a pretty lengthy discussion as to why the size is not as we would normally choose and this is written down, 1 to protect us as the shop but also to protect the customer, at the end of the day we want happy customers, sometimes they need to be directed and other times you just let them do all the decision making, the single most important part is to manage their expectations...

example, when you put a boot on for the first time your toes will probably hit the front, if i tell you that this will happen(before you put your foot into the boot) and that it will change when the boot is clipped and flexed then it is acceptable for them to hit when you first put the boot on...if, however i fail to mention this to someone not used to trying on correctly sized boots they will probably reject the boot and all others that this happens in as too small before they have even clipped it up... personally i am convinced this is why many people end up in boots a size too big, not the shops fault as such, they are basing the size on the customer saying the boot is too small, but what if they shell checked the boot first, then they could see how much space there was in the shell and help the customer understand.

it is most certainly not about upsizing or downsizing simply correct sizing in the first place and understanding the biomechanics of the individual (and their likelihood to adhere to any exercise program that is suggested.

on the equipment front, why do you think these people never had a problem in rear entry boots.... simple, the boot closed from behind, so they could stand bolt upright and close the boot till it touched the back of the calf muscle.. now there may have been a whole inch or more between their shin and the front of the boot cuff, but they could stand bolt upright and slide down the hill..i have said it before, and will do so again..for a certain market if salomon relaunced the SX92 i would have some in stock (as would most fitters in the business)

A snowHead

CEM, I believe everything you say and don't envy the challenges you have in your profession - there's lots of reasons for people to get a sub-optimal result from the boot purchase cycle

- high initial ticket price
- almost mandatory upselling of footbeds (as no manufacturer provides a functional item as OEM)
- unrealistic expectations from previous use of kit that never fitted properly
- unrealistic self assessment of intended use
- industry marketing built around better = stiffer, race boots are what you have if you really want to be a "expert".
- plastics which perform differently in a warm shop to a -20 deg mountaintop
- ski socks as a category generally being over padded rubbish
- general consumer expectation that everything can be sourced on the internet and that "service" should be free
- negative past consumer experience of in store "upselling"
- an industry marketing model built around new gimmicks being game changers

I skied a "borrowed" pair of rear entry boots in my "size" a few years ago as a reminder and found them almost impossible to get down the mountain (almost like having all your edges blown) yet when I was a callow yoof I'm sure I found them brilliant.

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CEM, Soundtrack would've had more beeps than an obscure German Techno cd.

Quite right to pick me up on some of the specifics but you see where I am heading which is that it's a lot easier for a customer to come out with a bad overall experience than a great one which makes the credit to you and your fellow professionals at the top end of the game all the higher.

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fatbob, i think that is where some of the problem lies, there are ski shops and there are ski shops who actually take boot fitting seriously (rather than just hang a sign out that says "custom boot fitting" ) "boot fitting" is a great buzz word and unfortunately for all concerned it is used a little too widely.... after all simply the act of helping a customer into a pair of boots could be construed as boot fitting

i certainly believe that this forum helps to educate consumers a little bit towards what they should be looking for

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bobmcstuff, SMALLZOOKEEPER, has a big freezer/fridge out back to chill shells down for foaming and the like, biggest problem is to do what you are suggesting it would need to be walk in..if you have ever tried putting your boots on having left them in the top box over night you will know that it would not be as simple as chill em down and put em on

After all it is free

Yeah, I was being facetious anyway.

You'd have to get the customer to put them on warm and then stand in the freezer for a while, which I doubt they'd be happy with.

CEM, how many hours of dome time (wear in time) do you recommend for people buying in the UK? How many times do you expect to see people back before they are happy?

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PJSki, it really depends on the individual, many people we don't see for any form of future adjustment (we may or may not have done some stuff at the time of purchase) other people we may see back once or twice but seldom more, as for how long to break a boot in, again it depends on the individual, a couple of sessions should give a pretty good idea of if anything is likely to go wrong but as with anything which is "fitted" to the human body it is not definitive

it has been said so many times, each and every persons foot/tolerance to pressure/fitness/technique is different so there as many answers as there are permutations of problem

the only things a boot fitter can do (lets not confuse a specialist boot fitter with a boot seller) whether in resort or in a town shop is understand the biomechanics, select the shell size /shape/flex based on the foot in front of them and then support the foot as well as possible within that space respecting the biomechanics, beyond that it comes down to liners, modifications and the individual that you are putting the boot onto... as we all know the liner is going to pack down so you then have to determine by how much and gauge that and the fitness factor into the equation,

accurate feedback from the customer is a big part of the whole thing as well, some of the racers i deal with can point to a part of the boot and say."can you make it 3mm wider there, a grind should do it" and others have so little sense of feeling that they couldn't tell you if their foot was about to fall off..the same applies to skiers of all level, i have recreational clients who could tell you if there was a 1" square of duct tape placed under their footbed and where it was and others who come back after a year and say that the boot hurts, when asked where it hurts the response is , i can't remember it was a year ago!!! or i think it was the left boot!!

i have had a few people come back to us for boot modifications and all they actually need is showing (again) how to clip up the boot properly

i should add that often the adjustments we make are for very minor issues, the kind of things that may settle down or are more of an irritation than a pain

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I think the temperature of the plastic is a huge issue. If I stick the boot driers in mine overnight so they are warm to put on then I have no trouble whatsoever to do so. However, on the odd occasion when we have skied on arrival in resort in cold shells I end up with a boot that I have v.seriously worried about being able to get a foot into and have struggled and struggled to turn the foot around the bend in the boot. I end up with it that tight on my foot that I usually end up commenting 'Crikey, and I worry I don't have performance fitted boots!!! LOL'. The temperature, to my mind at least seems to make a huge amount of difference to the fit - so should the boots fit in the shop in the warm or really only seem to fit properly when they are cold?

Megamum, so many permutations so little time

at room temperature the boot is easy to put on, so it does need to be soft at room temperature, if it wasn't then many people simply couldn't get their boots on
at -20 the boot is very stiff and can feel like it has shrunk, it does need to be stiffer than it is at +20 to transmit pressure to the skis
when stood around at room temperature the foot is larger with the blood pooling in it
when skiing the blood is pumping faster round the body therefore the foot is actually smaller.

so the foot becoming "smaller" and the boot becoming "smaller" should actually match, but as we know everyone is different

so just like fitting any piece of footwear you have several fits
1 non weight bearing size
2 static weight bearing size
3 dynamic weight bearing size
4 thermal fit (what happens to the foot in the heat or cold)
5 neural fit ( the sensory fit affected by bloodflow, or limitations of circulation or nerve sensation)

we then need to broach the question of "performance fitted" boots, you may or may not believe it but comfort and performance can come hand in hand, i have a "performance fitted boot" i clip it up in the morning and other than the first run or two of the day it remains clipped until lunch then again till end of the day, if i went up a size into what might be considered a "comfort boot" it simply wouldn't work, i would have to clip the boot tighter and tighter each run but this would compress the foot in the areas where the boots had space and i was trying to tighten them.

any boot can give comfort AND performance, it needs to be the correct SIZE and SHAPE for the foot it is being put onto, and when there is no exact match, the closest thing can be adjusted to get it closer to the foot shape, remember there are 40 lasts and X million feet.

when fisher ended up with the vacuum boot they originally set out to design a plastic which was more stable at extremes of temperature, what they got was a slightly more stable plastic but one which was very mouldable at a low heat.

being honest i am not sure what the answer is in terms of plastic development, i am sure it will come in time but i don't see it in the next couple of seasons...as to should the boot fit in the warm shop or on the cold mountain, well it needs to fit in the warm and the cold, if you ski in the spring the temperature can be higher than it is in any shop.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

CEM, that was interesting. I must admit I recognise the bit about constantly tightening the boot. I rarely get it tight enough from the beginning of the day, but after walking to the piste and maybe a bit of a ski I given it a tighten and then I don't undo it until the end of the day, I find it gets so tight that if I end up undoing it I they never seem to go back properly tight in the same way. The warm/cold issue is interesting. Do you have to take into account if someone intends to buy a boot heater that they wear in the boot all day?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Spyderman, Princess. Pea. Laughing

I have (non-performance) boots which I do up at the beginning of the day, and undo at the end. I almost never have to adjust them during the day, and I leave them fully clipped at lunchtime. Thanks CEM.

Mind you, my skiing's pretty crap. Perhaps that's the boots' fault? Toofy Grin

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I'm pretty sure that within time, 3-D modelling will be utilised to map a person's foot and create a ski boot shell from a solid lump of plastic, or at least a oversized thickness shell using a computer controlled milling machine. It can be done with teeth and other components, should be easy to make a ski boot that fits perfectly first time without the need for adjustment.

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Help!!

How much choice does a shop need to successfully fit you? Boots

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