 Poster: A snowHead
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Just wondering about when ski boots get too old and should be replaced. Another current thread about touring boots made me look at the Scarpa site where I found this page http://www.scarpa.co.uk/ski/footwear.html and it says
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| Plastic Boots: Plastic materials, like leather, have a limited life span, but usually they do not show any visible signs of wear. For your own safety we suggest you replace your plastic mountaineering boots, whatever their make, at least every 3 years if used full time. Every 5 years if used only at weekends and on occasional trips. |
So I had a look at www.raichle.ch as they made my current boots but could not see anything at all there about ski boots.
Are there any differences that are significant to my main question between ski boots and "plastic mountaineering boots" as in the Scarpa quote?
My ski boots are several years old, well used but both shells and liners appear to be in good condition. Apart from actual breakages what fails in a boot and what reasons do Scarpa have for the statements quoted above? Are there any non-destructive ways to test the shells for being too old?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My biggest issue has always been odour. they just get anti-socially stinky
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My last boots destructed after 4 seasons pretty hard use - front toe wore away, to an extent was getting dangerous for binding setting + inner boot cracked at ankle (Lange Race Boot). 4 metal clips broke during life, but I had them replaced - now figure for about 3-4 seasons heavy use.
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For me, it has always been about the sole of the boot. too much wear can affect the bindings at the toe and heel areas as dg3 says.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Firstly, in most cases the failure of a moutaineering boot could have much dire consequences then the failure of an alpine boot - mainly in terms of where you are. Whilst using moutaineering boots you might find yourself miles from your nearest boot shop, or worse...
There are many arguments about the effective life of ski boots.
Lots of manufacturers, Salomon for example, recommend that the useful life of their liners are good for around 10 weeks skiing. After this time the liners have usually been squashed and no longer support your foot sufficiently. Liners are easily replaced, costing from around £60 for a normal liner up to £150+ for a custom liner. This is likely to be lots of marketing speak, if the liner is still keeping your foot snug (see other posts...) then keep skiing.
The shell itself could potentially fail in two main ways: the sole and the shell.
Lots of boots have soles that can be replaced, always watch for excessive wear, it stops the binding / boot operating correctly. I use Cat Tracks, bought initially as my shell soles can't be replaced but since then I can't praise them enough for improving walking comfort AND grip.
The other main way boots might fail is through excessive wear of the plastic shells in high stress areas. This tends to be over the arch of the foot, and to a lesser extent and the rear of the boot. This should be monitored, as should all of your ski gear, depending in how much it's used. Look out for stress in the plastic - it might appear stretched or folded - if this is the case get a boot shop to check them out.
Over the last few years I've seen a scary number of rear entry boots that have "failed" whilst being used, again all of them over the arch of the foot between the toe and the leg.
IMHO no matter the condition of your ski boots if they are over 10 years old hire some if you can't justify buying a new pair.
If nothing else the fear of the potential of boot failure should be a great reason for going out and buying a new pair. 
I'm sure other people have seen boots fail in many other ways, especially in accidents. I've seen a pair "fail" after being dragged by a buggy on the airport tarmac - nasty sight. And mine even "failed" in a large mogul field, much to the amusement of friends, after much inspection nothing could be found wrong with the boots. Weird. 
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Forgot to mention the buckles & clips. Watch out for wear they often can be replaced but not if they tear the shell.
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| parlor wrote: |
mine even "failed" in a large mogul field, much to the amusement of friends, after much inspection nothing could be found wrong with the boots. Weird. |
Thats so weird, mine do that as well, you just never know when they are going to fail, it can happen all over the place
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Adrian, AFAIK, Raichle don't do ski boots any more, that's why you won't find them on their site.
Yes, plastics do have a limited life span, but if you're a 1 or 2 week a year skier, and don't leave them somewhere very hot or very cold through your non-skiing months, then you should get several years out of them (maybe even 10+)
When the plastic starts to go, you will see cracks appearing around any stress points, and perhaps cracking on the surface of flexible areas, such as around the cuff.
Heat/direct sunlight will accelerate the breakdown of plastics, and moisture can lead to breakdown of the liner
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Longest I had was 6 years, even without replaceable heels, which can extend the life.
To be honest, buying ski boots is fun and not ridiculously expensive. My TNT's are in their third year, and I'm going to get some new ones next time I go. They'll have had about 60 days on in that time.
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Apart from the smell, I reckon 20 weeks/150 days tops for any kit. You do have to replace "consumables" - clips, heel and toe pads, etc. more frequently. - I do anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have a pair of Raichle rear entry boots that I use at the dry slope, they're over 10 years old and going strong, but they don't get a lot of use, typically the liners will wear out before the shell of a normal ski boot, boots should be cleaned off at the end of the season, the liners dried out and then they should be stored in a cool, dark, dry place if you do this with good quality boots they will last a long time, the lesser quality boots may only last for one complete season before the lining goes.
Normally you would expect a plastic shell to become brittle before failing but this does not always happen, I once saw an example where the base of the boot or sole plate had come away completely from the rest of the boot 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| JT wrote: |
| For me, it has always been about the sole of the boot. too much wear can affect the bindings at the toe and heel areas as dg3 says. |
It makes sense to buy ski boots with replacement heel and toe units from a large manufacturer whose spares will be readily available in years to come.
I have noticed many expensive boots do not have this possibility. I have mentioned this in ski shops and the response is 'We live in a throwaway society'. I also think some people are glad of an excuse to buy something new.
How long do normal boots and shoes last ?
Do not forget normal shoes will see a darn site more walking than ski boots. Most of the time a ski boot spends its working life attached to a pair of skis
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Latchigo, if you buy proper shoes with welted soles then they should out last you if they're properly cared for.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks to all for the comments. My Raichle F1 Pro boots with Zipfit liners are at least five years old and over 25 weeks of use. The are dried most nights after skiing and I use clean socks every day so there are hardly any foot-smells. The shells are scraped and scratched but that is only superficial. Have had a look at the Nordica, Salomon and Tecnica sites and could not see anything about expected boot life.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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have you tried e-mailling the companies direct - they are normally pretty good at getting back to you on queries like that - look for a contacts page and give it a go.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Silly question, but for those who've said their boots have "failed", what exactly do you mean? That you felt it folding in on itself? How did you know? Was it something you felt "give" in the boot?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Latchigo wrote: |
I have noticed many expensive boots do not have this possibility. I have mentioned this in ski shops and the response is 'We live in a throwaway society'.
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Use cat-tracks!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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yes, cat-tracks are brilliant, make you feel much safer, cost practically nothing. Thinking about "stinky", has anyone tried gently washing the inners? I find that lots of things which are not supposed to be washed (like dry clean only woolen coats) can actually be washed quite successfully in a machine, on gentle cycle. It would be worth trying in a case where the stinky state of the linings was giving rise to an urgent need to buy new boots.
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Latchigo, it's worthless trying to compare shoes with skiboots - sports shoe design revolves around the to desire to protect the body from excessive shock generated by the foot striking the ground. Ski boot shells, however, are designed to absorb and respond to the fore/aft and sideways stresses of skiing.
Running shoes, for example, should be thrown away once the footbed cushioning has compressed, the upper is floppy, and the outer sole shows signs of excessive wear (regardless of whether they pong yet), say about every 6 months for dedicated runners. Hiking boots are designed to resist wear and tear and might last a good few years before their supportive underfoot, and upper protective, functions are compromised. Dress shoes, on the other hand, will last generations if the soles are cobbled regularly.
Skiing's not the same kettle of fish, by all accounts, as any other activity. So they tell me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Manda wrote: |
| Running shoes, for example, should be thrown away once the footbed cushioning has compressed, the upper is floppy, and the outer sole shows signs of excessive wear (regardless of whether they pong yet), say about every 6 months for dedicated runners. |
But 6 months in a running shoe may be a similar length of time of actual use to the life of a ski boot liner. I have heard quotes that liners are only designed to last 8-10 weeks of hard use.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Thinking about "stinky", has anyone tried gently washing the inners? |
I tend to just put a bit of foot talc in them every night - and some on my feet every day.
If you dry your boots in your room (not on top of the radiator), and add a bit of talc, then it should help.
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Manda, I was with a party on the glacier at Les Arcs when one woman's boots failed. One ski boot (Nordica's) fractured in two across the underside of the sole midway between the binding points. She went shopping for new boots.
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Manda, my previous ski boots failed because either they or my feet changed shape and the boots became uncomfortable or loose. My current boots fit nicely even though they are well-used. I have heard tales of boots that actually break - something falls off or snaps.
My question at the start of this thread was related to boots aging and getting to a point where they need replacing. Some metals are subject to metal fatigue where age or stress or flexing causes the metal to fail eventually. There may be similar failure mechanisms in plastic.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There may be similar failure mechanisms in plastic.
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There are, failure can take place due to the same reasons as metal, but also due to the fact that some plastics harden with age, usually they suffer in sunlight, thus the best option, is to store them out of the sun, or as I suggested earlier in a cool dark dry location
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Latchigo wrote: |
I have noticed many expensive boots do not have this possibility. I have mentioned this in ski shops and the response is 'We live in a throwaway society'.
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Use cat-tracks! |
I just could not be bothered with all the palaver.
I am surprised nobody has used the 'less is more argument' and claimed boots are structurely better without removable heel and toe pieces.
A similar argument is used with hi fi amplifiers when audio shops claim tone controls degrade the sound quality. My amp has tone controls (and a phono input). That is non negotiable.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Heh, I still remember how one of my Polish 'Polsport' boots literally exploded (ok, crumbled into pieces) at the very beginning of my second week of skiing on them. Looks like they were not made to withstand low-temperature... 
I also remember my Hungarian friend looking at the intact boot (he was still skiing with leather boots at the time) and saying philosophically 'this one's great, but what to do with just one?...'
Oh, and there were loads of Italian Caber boots imported into Romania, looking 'the business'. Everyone who was someone bought some (I couldn't afford them, twice the price of the Polish ones), but they cracked just as effectively in the second or third season of use...
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Having not skied for a couple of years now, and missing the snow, I feel that I need to replace my boots so had a quick search with 'Raichle' on here (reason being that these were always the best fit for my feet). How disappointed I am that Raichle are now out of the market - probably the best boots (Flexon Pro's) I have ever had with at least 3 days per week for 7 seasons (mainly race training/marshalling) use and only a bit of plastic from one clip missing.
Can anyone suggest a boot with a similar fit as I have feet that do not suit many brands (Lange and Technica definitely should not come into it)?
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You know it makes sense.
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Sherlock Chalets, easy: Dalbello Krypton.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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All boot manufacturers work on the fact that the shell plastics will start to degrade after 5 years and can become brittle. Exposure to UV is a significant cause but its not the only one, so manufacturers will recommend that if your boots are over 5 years old start thinking seriously about replacing them. Generally they will accept no liability for boots of 5years+.
I skied (and worked for) Raichle for 10 years and the best boots I ever had were Flexon Comps, since the sad and wholly un-necessary demise of Raichle (but thats another story) I have had Nordica, currently The Beast and its a close second best.
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Poster: A snowHead
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my previous ski boots failed because either they or my feet changed shape and the boots became uncomfortable or loose.
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Adrian, I should think what you describe has more to do with the lining packing down (BTW adult feet can't "change shape" other than by serious illness or injury, or cosmetic surgery), which would seem an entirely different kettle of fish to the plastic shell "failing"!
From what people have said so far, when plastic boots fail, it seems to be either very visually spectacular or very not! Has anyone else had their plastic shell "fail"?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've had my current (Koflach) boots since 1993. The first year I did a full season in them and since then I've used them for a couple of weeks every year. I threw away the liners as soon as I got them and replaced them with some foam liners that had seen 2 1/2 seasons (35 weeks) previous use. Although the liners do collapse I just build them back up with orthepeadic felt. All the buckles have been replaced at least once. The soles are starting to wear but skiing at purpose built resorts helps (walking on snow rather than tarmac). It probably helps to walk with the buckles left done up to avoid scuffing the soles and keep the boot in shape.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think there are changes to foot shape over time. Some are temporary other longer lasting. Old wives tales say you should never buy shoes early in the day, you should have walked around a lot first. After wearing sandles/slippers/wellies/no-shoes for a few days, normal shoes feel wrong as the feet have spread out. Then there are all sorts bunions, corns and bony-growths that feet may get.
Having said the above, it may well be that linings packing down was the major issue with my old boots.
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Adrian, aren't there short term changes over the course of the day but precious few long term? That's only what I heard...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Adrian, er no. Sorry to be pedantic, but you've crossed into "A little information" territory.
Old wives were right - feet "change" further to exercise. But only in the sense that warm exercising muscle takes up fractionally more volume (in the same way that warm hands do inside gloves). It's a similar volume around the entire circumference of that body part - the shape stays the same.
Callouses mishape the foot, but they're caused by poor fitting shoes and a callous shaver deals with that.
Feet (just like any other part of the body) don't "spread out". What you're experiencing is a change of perception - the brain gets used to the feet feeling comfortable. Put on tighter fitting shoes and foot size/shape remains the same but the brain notices the difference in comfort. Same thing happens with stomachs & girdles.
This is like the misnomer "fallen arches". No such thing (everyone's arches compress or "fall" during each footfall - it's the way they're supposed to work).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Manda wrote: |
| Callouses mishape the foot, but they're caused by poor fitting shoes and a callous shaver deals with that. |
Ah, so feet don't change, as long as you shave them when they do, which they don't do anyway...
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as long as you shave them
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Please do. I soooo hate hairy feet 
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Wear The Fox Hat, yup. You've perfectly understood.
maggi, totally agree. Waxing is good too - except if you're Mr Manda. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sorry manda but, arches do collapse, feet do spread out. This is why you get callouses. Buying a callous file will just clear up the symptom and as you are not getting to the cause of the problem, they will then return. In order to solve the problem, one should seak the advice of a podatrist. An orthotic will support the foot and reduce the amount of over-pronation(falling arches) this will alow proper bio-mechanical function of the foot.
Think of a callous like a blister. A blister is formed as a result of friction on the surface of the skin. However a callous is formed as a result of friction between the tissue and the bone. Both are attributed to exessive motion of the foot in its chosen footwear and are more effectivley delt with at root cause by the orthotic. As to your point regarding feet spreading out, have have in our lab, two casts of the same foot. One weighted, one unweighted. There are 3cm differece between the two in lenght and around 2cm in width. The orthotic stabilised the foot, as a result it spreads around 85% less, after which i was able then to fit my client in a much smaller and lower volume boot. As a result the boot is more precise and thus he has a much greater control when skiing.
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FAQ
The car was a Panda, however.