 Poster: A snowHead
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CEM, Or an Austrian Roll, a la SOLE.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CEM, Had a ski tech recently moaning about having to grind them, I was like "Grind them, but why would you need to given the claim!"
Shortly after I cut one in half to make a Drill holder, I still have the scabs and blisters all over my face after moulten liquid "PVA" glue, which weirdly the Fischer smells of, compared to the two Langes I also butchered for the same use, without damaging my face in any way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All the vacuum models last year were simply a standard RC4 shell with different plastic, so with a margin of +/- 5mm in last they only suited people with that sort of foot. lt's all there in the materials provided by Fischer, if you know what you're doing, which is why it's unfortunate that they marketed this as being for anybody by anybody.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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albinomountainbadger, So out of professional interest, what would you say is the foot shape they cover? What was wrong with RC4 shaped feet going in, Zytel RC4, being ground and stretched? All we've got now is a longer process as they all seem to need tweeking after, a more expensive product and one that has a reduced shelf life due to the plastic being pretty light and soft. In all in all I just can't see the point, and Shite i'm really really trying, I'd love to jump on the marketing bandwagon to help me sell more expensive stuff more efficently!!!!!!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, So out of professional interest, what would you say is the foot shape they cover? |
Ok, not many... Just look at the thing, it's still a pre-formed boot shell so you can't expect miracles. To meet the 'it can fit anyone' idea they'd need to just release a rectangle of plastic 110m wide and have it melt bits off as required (perhaps 3D printers might make good skiboots one day!). You still have to go through the process of assessing the client's feet to see if it's feasible.
Apparently in Austria thousands of pairs were sold without the Vacuum process as simple RC4s (each pair was sold with standard canting parts which could be swapped in, thus allowing the boot to be worn straight out of the box).
Anyway, is that excessively limited? Yes, take that one up with Fischer. It's my opinion this is where Fischer screwed up. They released the product too early and the marketing was ahead of it promising things it couldn't deliver. Last year in France they openly said we were running in 'pre-release' - we all got a machine and a number of boots; if we tried to order more stock there wasn't any available, so there's no denying they weren't ready.
This year they have apparently released many more shells for the system so obviously it can now be applied to more feet, and I'm sure we'll see a lot more of it on the slopes due to that and the inevitable price drop.
| CH2O wrote: |
| What was wrong with RC4 shaped feet going in, Zytel RC4, being ground and stretched? |
Nothing in practice, assuming you're not risking the integrity of the shell/buckles etc when adapting it. It's more principle/sales I guess. Grinding and stretching are after-sales services for me, I avoid manhandling a pair of boots to sell them and cringe if a bootfitter says "Oh I can fix that" to a client who feels discomfort after three seconds in a boot.
With the Vacuum system you can take care of potential niggles before they arise on the pistes, so the client doesn't have to traipse back after a days skiing to have them resolved. Now clearly that depends on the skill of the fitter using the thing, but assuming it's someone competent then the Fischers should be perfect on the first go.
It was a learning process for me but as the season went on and thanks to good feedback from knowledgeable clients, I was getting it. Adapting my own materials to use during the process was a large part of this; the foam inserts Fischer provide just aren't enough. As mentioned previously, I experimented with a pair for myself and stretched out the toe-box enough to comfortably fit in a smaller pair of boots (my previous boots were all 27s and now I'm in a 25). Advantage there being that I only stretched the toe area and didn't put any pressure on the base.
| CH2O wrote: |
| All we've got now is a longer process as they all seem to need tweeking after, a more expensive product and one that has a reduced shelf life due to the plastic being pretty light and soft. In all in all I just can't see the point, and Shite i'm really really trying, I'd love to jump on the marketing bandwagon to help me sell more expensive stuff more efficently!!!!!!!! |
Possibly, I guess I'll see how long the ones I took last. Some people like a lighter boot though, Fischer bill it as 'a good thing'. Be interesting to see what people who bought them to replace standard RC4s think. I took the 130 pro model and they are very soft when I walk out of the apartment. They do stiffen quickly in the cold though.
Of course, another sales point is the canting. How many people honestly get this set on their boots? With the Fischer system it's done as part of the process- although as the poster above observes, how well it's done depends on the fitter and their client feedback.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 28-11-12 12:19; edited 1 time in total
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
When I bought the boots I had an issue that two of the buckles fell off  . This was due to the screws (on the higher end model) not having been tightened properly after moulding and working loose. Loctite has solved the issue. |
That's perhaps a sign that he was hurrying a bit and didn't wait for the plastic to cool properly. You do have to be very careful with it when it's hot.
Off on a slight tangent, but worst thing I saw was an idiot colleague of mine who took a heat gun to a pair and deformed the shell permanently; put them back in the oven twice but had no joy fixing it.
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So I resume, they're more expensive, require the same time and expertise as any other boot should need, are very temperature sensitive and will have a shorter shelf life than other PU/Nylons. Seems, well pointless, am happy though they've manged to pump intot the market a higher sell through price point. Been great for ease of selling our higher priced boots.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| So I resume, they're more expensive, require the same time and expertise as any other boot should need, are very temperature sensitive and will have a shorter shelf life than other PU/Nylons. Seems, well pointless, |
Putting that another way, you've a product that requires no more time or expertise than an existing one, results in the same happy customer leaving your shop but sees him putting more cash in your till and coming back sooner to buy another pair...
I can see we're not going to agree on this one. I started out as a cynic too (I'm no Fischer fan-boy), especially when people kept coming in with boots they'd bought elsewhere to have them redone, but I can only say they're the first pair of boots I've had that don't cause me any discomfort so I'm sold on it (previously Rossignol, Lange, and Dalbello, the last two fitted by people who are reputed to know what they're doing).
It requires some development but it's the future in my opinion, I've not been to any trade shows lately but the other brands will surely be rolling out similar stuff soon. If you think of it as a big, pressure-assisted Salomon custom-shell then it's nothing new...
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| CH2O wrote: |
| So I resume, they're more expensive, require the same time and expertise as any other boot should need, are very temperature sensitive and will have a shorter shelf life than other PU/Nylons. Seems, well pointless, am happy though they've manged to pump intot the market a higher sell through price point. Been great for ease of selling our higher priced boots. |
I thought Fischer originally developed the plastic to make boot flex less sensitive to temperature changes. 'Normal' boots flex between 'Ugg' and 'WC Slalom'* depending on temperature do they not?
*poetic license alert sarge
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| ...more expensive, require the same time and expertise as any other boot should need, are very temperature sensitive... Seems, well pointless... |
They are certainly a higher up front cost.
Given that skiing realistically costs me £70-100 a day and the fact that my last two pairs of ski boots probably cost me 2 and 4 days of lost time, respectively. Then you could take view that - for me - they actually saved money overall.
I reckon that if your foot morphology is pretty "normal" then there are certainly cheaper options. I suspect the benefit is for that minority who have "slightly" awkward foot morphology; care about performance and need all day comfort(ish).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Kenny wrote: |
| I thought Fischer originally developed the plastic to make boot flex less sensitive to temperature changes. |
I certainly find them less sensitive than my Salomon X2s, which stiffened up horrendously when it got below -10.
I do, though, think there's a much more noticeable difference between room temperature and "on snow". My view is that below, something like, 5 degrees they stiffen up and then are quite well-behaved down to around -18 (which is the coldest I've knowingly skied them in).
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Putting that another way, you've a product that requires no more time or expertise than an existing one, results in the same happy customer leaving your shop but sees him putting more cash in your till and coming back sooner to buy another pair...
I can see we're not going to agree on this one. I started out as a cynic too (I'm no Fischer fan-boy), especially when people kept coming in with boots they'd bought elsewhere to have them redone, but I can only say they're the first pair of boots I've had that don't cause me any discomfort so I'm sold on it (previously Rossignol, Lange, and Dalbello, the last two fitted by people who are reputed to know what they're doing).
It requires some development but it's the future in my opinion, I've not been to any trade shows lately but the other brands will surely be rolling out similar stuff soon. If you think of it as a big, pressure-assisted Salomon custom-shell then it's nothing new... |
Very nicely put. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
In truth I'd liked to have bought them from CEM or LargeZooKeeper (who does now sell them). |
Stating that LARGEZOOKEEPER now sells Vacuums should be enough of an endorsement for anyone.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Spyderman, 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Am I right in thinking that the Daleboot has the potential to fit more feet than the Fischer Vacuum as the Dales are created to fit the particular foot whereas the Fischer is just squashed a bit here and there?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DB, all depends... Dale boot has its place and is highly adaptable, the people i recommend it for generally have very limited ankle joint flexion to the extent that if we lifted their heels inside a conventional boot to the level that they require we have run out of space above the instep, it works well for very wide feet, high insteps, limited flexion often a combination of 2 or all three of these things present in the same foot in which case it is about the only solution which will pretty much guarantee to be comfortable.
we frequently see people who have bought 2 or even 3 pairs of boots within the same season or a 2 year period, that normally sets alarm bells ringing...getting it badly wrong once happens but twice or three times you have to question what is going on and either there is a biomechanical issue or the poor person has fallen for a boot seller each time (now that takes skill!!)
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FAQ
