Why so many ACL injuries?

A snowHead

Just curious?

wider skis?
more folk going off piste?
coincedence?

something else?

cheers,

Greg

A snowHead

too many people skiing in the back seat

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

More older and more less fit people, doing a bit more than just cruising around I would guess.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

kitenski, everyone's got a theory. It's older, less fit, crap skiers, women at certain times in their cycle etc. etc. I now know loads of people who have done them - young, fit ski instructors who've been skiing their whole lives, teenagers, strong and skilled men, on piste, off piste, when skiing fast, when skiing slowly.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

kitenski, it caused quite a bit of discussion during the SoPi bash. I don't have a theory, but perhaps some sort of pre-ski exercise program that is easy to do, not boring etc etc, might help some of us who are reluctant gym visitors. I'm putting my bike in the back of my van starting next week. I work right next to a network of cycle paths.

You'll need to Register first of course.

It's just the way sport is. In skiing knees and ligaments in knees are most exposed part. In some other sport, it's something else. I agree that sometimes it's about age, fitness level, skills level etc. But if you look at World cup for example, majority of injuries are knee ligaments. And I doubt you can say something about "older, less fit people" when you talk about those (yeah I agree, alpine skiers are not fittest guys on planet but still). It's just that knees suffer most.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I'd say its because we have got really long levers strapped to our feet and ski bindings don't always release immediately when we need them too. But I am inclined to say that modern skis allow us to ski much faster than we ever used to (especially in variable unpisted stuff) and there has not been such a large improvement in ski binding technology to compensate? But to be honest accidents just happens sometimes. It sucks.

After all it is free

Whilst fitness probably helps, as primoz, says people with excellent technique and thighs of steel do this injury. Whilst I may not have excellent technique, I have had a lot of lessons to ensure I don't sit in the back seat. I might not have thighs of steel but I have a manual labour job that sees me running around a 5 storey building, up and down stairs all day every day and when I'm not doing that I am skiing or hiking up and down the mountains for many hours at a time. My upper body strength is pretty crap (although has improved greatly since I did my ACL!) but leg strength is not. I wasn't at "that time" of my cycle, I'm not old, my legs were warmed up... really not sure what else I could do other than loosen my bindings so the ski releases more quickly... but loose bindings pose another risk.

Surely the higher incidence of ACL injury this season has been about the snow conditions? If there really is a reason over and beyond that which would enable people to prevent ACL injuries when skiing, I'd love to know.

Elston, cross post. My physio said something about the positioning of modern kit putting the ligament in a taut position or something like that... but who knows... ultimately I agree that accidents just happen in a sport like this and the vast majority of the time you're fine and very occasionally you get unlucky.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

In my case I think I simply got unlucky. With hind sight there were a number of small contributing factors to the fall which was pretty trivial. In the end I guess in the end the numbers catch up with you. Better a slow speed knee than a high speed injury of a different sort.

I've wondered if the wider kit contributed but it's hard to argue that it would be more than a very small factor during the fall it's self.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I think I agree with Elston. Also I'm not sure a specifically selected population like snowheads (& an an even more selected population like the SOPB) is eveidence of more ACL injuries.

Personally though I run a DIN which is too low by almost all traditional measures and have definitely taken sacrificial falls when I probably could have held it together to avoid something worse. Having said this I'll probably pop a ligament getting on the train now rolling eyes

snow reports

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Arno, +1 for recreational skiers. also could be that people on fatter skis offpiste and in slush/ variables who mainly turn by twisting their feet are getting caught out.. we had three sprained ankles last week in afternoon slush (on their days off unaccompanied by coaches Very Happy

)

amateur racers are getting em more ofter when entering the big time of FIS races with high bib numbers and rutted courses

A snowHead

even for very good skiers, the problems seem to come if they get knocked into the backseat and then their skis twist underneath them. I always cringe if I see this happening while watching the races

A snowHead

Arno, agreed i just made the distinction between those in courses and those freeskiing... perhaps rec skiers was the wrong term

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

skimottaret, yeah - I guess the difference is that recreational skiers are often in the backseat and turn by twisting as a matter of course. this only happens to racer types when something has happened to knock them out of their usual good form

not sure whether fat skis make much difference. i was on skinnies when i busted my ACL. i can see that skis with a big sidecut could be more dangerous

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Arno, not to open a can of worms but fatter skis (imo) do allow those with lower skill level to venture into variable conditions. This is a two edge sword, good cause they can enjoy more of the mountain bad cause they can get hurt more easily..

but as Elston, said sh*t happens... I am laying in bed with a bad neck sore knee after taking a reasonable hit last week... at least my post count is going up snowHead

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Surely there have always been recreational skiers sitting in the back seat though... so maybe a change in kit + back seat mistake is the reason for a general increase?

NY times report:

You'll need to Register first of course.

miranda, see also phantom foot injuries for more information

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

skimottaret, not an unfair point

Read the phantom foot stuff and it makes sense of course. But I'm sure we all know very good skiers (not racers) who've done the injury who rarely make a back seat mistake, so it's useful to make sure you don't get slack and focus on technique but other than that, what can you do but hope for the best? I'm certainly both fitter and a much better skier now than I was for the many, many years that I didn't injure myself rolling eyes

Anyway, that's far too much time spent today thinking about ACL injuries - they stick around for long enough as it is, so not good to spend hours thinking about them! Laughing

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

skimottaret, yup, and unfortunately we can't all be perfect all of the time (and, yes, some of us don't even come close wink

)

snow reports

O.P Heavy snow

You know it makes sense.

Cynic, spot on - people going from easy off piste powder and not spotting the change in snow pack - happened to me last year - did a lovely steep N face in cold snow came out at the bottom on to a plateau that had been in the sun and snow went from sweet to sludge in 3ms and I had not adjusted my technique.

Now a year on and only 6 months post Op I've been very nervous of skiing soft snow etc as soon as I've come across it.

That said did not affect me when skiing superb powder!!

girosse.mp4 from Weathercam

http://vimeo.com/38917618

There is a binding on the market (Google it) that states that they have developed a release mechanism that saves ACLs !!!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

There are all sorts of factors that can come together and one of those factors has to be bad luck because the fact is that great skiers, good skiers, ok skiers and poor skiers all do it. And yet people in all of those categories - including the poor one - also go through an entire life of skiing without doing it too. Poor technique no doubt raises your chances - whether that's a permanent habit or a momentary lapse of concentration - and I certainly know I'm not a particularly good skier so I've no qualms about acknowledging that. But even the good and the great can mess up and/or get unlucky sometimes. What I have noticed though is lots of people saying "yes, it happens to poor skiers but with me it was just bad luck" Laughing

I think I was a hugely lucky poor skier for a long time and am now a mildly unlucky ok skier wink

edited to switch out a word I didn't like.

A snowHead

Playing football seems a bit of an issue as well as far as I can tell....

That said, after my little sit down it's hard not to think that binding technology seems to have stalled.

A snowHead

I'm hobbling around after SOPiB 2012. I had my first taste of ski touring... three hours up the Col du Galibier, a ten minute lunch with a good view, and a twenty two minute ski back down. I was so tired when I got to the top that I couldn't ski properly on the way down, and on much stiffer skis than I'm used to. I got in the back seat on one turn, had a wobble and a heroic save which resulted in strained medial and lateral co-lateral ligaments. Thankfully, it's nowhere near as bad as an ACL injury, so I should be ok in a few weeks.

My chiropractor's theory is that knees are designed to have feet on the end of our legs and not to cope with the leverage from skis. Not that that stops him as he's a boarder, which he says is even worse for them in a fall.

He reckons staying hydrated is very important in preventing injury, so... bladder up.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Duke,

You need to Login to know who's really who.

ref OP A well known instructor friend points to change of perception for crashes, I stood watching a French skier on skis totally unsuitable for heavy untracked snow and he came down like a god, just before the end of the pitch he looked at the group his ski kicked out and he had injured his knee. Aforementioned instructor reckons as we ski down the concentration is six feet in front, as soon as we look up and away the concentration is broken and the skier can fall, notice next time how many people fall near a group, or even into it. I'm talking experienced OP skiers as well as the inexperienced. (Fortunately, the unfortunate faller was a doctor and knew how to protect the tear down some hideous ice rutted tracks on the way home)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

AndAnotherThing.., I'm not sure if he specifically meant ACLs or was referring to other knee injuries.

You'll need to Register first of course.

So if you lose concentration, get thrown from the correct position, or never learn what the correct position is you are - unsurprisingly - more likely to fall, in a sport where let's face it falling over is always a distinct possibility even for the best skiers (what with it involving having big planks strapped to your feet whilst travelling across a slippery, steep or uneven surface). Research shows that over the last couple of decades, as kit has changed, a fall is less likely to result in ankle and shin injuries than it was in the past and more likely to result in knee injuries than it was in the past. A lot of the time skiers of all ages and levels of experience manage not to do themselves any harm if they fall over. Sometimes they get unlucky.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I also wonder whether enough time (if any) is invested in teaching people how to fall. Since I had knee reconstruction (originally resulting from rugby/mtn biking not skiing) I have a stronger sense of when it is more prudent to take the hip fall rather than hold it together and risk accelerating out of the back seat. This also extends to getting up from lower gradient pitches - I'd rather take skis off than strain knees at a bad angle with a big lever on them.

After all it is free

fatbob, Arno, +1

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

On some of that research they did say they thought they'd managed to reduce ACL injuries amongst instructors and patrol by half by teaching them how to fall (well they actually presented it as fact that this was the reason for less ACL injuries amongst the group without talking about any other considerations). Some falls are just way too quick for you to have time to control it, but in the past I know I've done things like recovered to standing position whilst still moving in a slow speed fall etc. although in recent years I've been more inclined to do as fatbob says rather than trying to hold it together - not because anyone taught me to do that but just because it seemed the better thing to do. Do any of the instructors on here teach people how to fall? Were they taught how to fall themselves as part of their training? There's still only so much you can do, obviously, but an interesting question as the research suggested that experienced skiers like instructors and patrol still needed teaching.

Help!!

Why so many ACL injuries?

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Ski Fitness, Exercise, Injury and Rehab