 Poster: A snowHead
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| marksavoie wrote: |
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| SCGB leaders are not like ski hosts since it is accepted by resorts that they take people off-piste, though in recent years less far off-piste than in the past. This followed 2 relatively recent deaths in groups led by SCGB reps (the only ones in over 100 years, which isn't bad). |
Sorry, but this is highly misleading. It is not up to resorts to decide who can "guide", instruct, teach, lead, etc. The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry. |
Sorry, but he is actually highly correct in what he says. |
ohh gosh this is going to get silly. marksavoie was correct. It is nothing to do with the resorts (forget paying or not paying) and wholly down to the law of the land as (unlike Canada / US for example) skiing is done on publicly owned land etc therefore law of the land comes into effect and administered by the DDJS (French Sports Ministry) who execute the law and can direct other organisation such as the Gendarmes to arrest people. |
In the context of the Ski Club, you are wrong. In the context of paid professionals you are completely correct, but irrelevant to what was being discussed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Casual 'guides' / 'mates' that I've been out with have been much more strict on both equipment usage and skiing ability.
A few years back I was accepted into a 'professionally' led group to do some off-piste off the back of Lanchettes in Les Arcs - I was a danger to both myself and everyone else.
They gave me an airbag and transceiver without any instruction on either, apart from when to take the 'handle' off. The guy didn't weigh up my skiing ability (very well) - which was pretty dire at that time (slightly better now). What a struggle that day was!
Edit - This post was a little off topic, sorry, but rather than delete it I'll leave it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^^ Not sure. I went down to meet the guy this morning and he was there, wearing his jacket, shook hands, there were a few people as you would expect, looking like a normal SCGB group....? I didn't' stay so know no more....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PJSki yep fair enough... cross-wires / parallel conversation. Agreed correct and incorrect depending on what we are talking about.
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Steve Angus, my goodness- agreement, someone coughs to perhaps being wrong (or right) the clouds part, the sun shines and bluebirds sing................
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but getting back on topic, I was aware of an SCGB death a couple of years back in Switzerland with pending litigation. But there has been another?
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Some clarification:
The issue of whether, or not, one requires the requisite qualification in France depends (with a few exceptions) on whether one is working (instructing, guiding, leading, organising) "contre remuneration".
Remuneration: this not only includes payment in cash, etc but also payment in kind (Source: DDCS - ex DDJS - This isn't my definition / interpretation).
If you are genuinely going skiing with your mates, friends etc you can do what you like  .
"Ski hosts" / "SCGB Leaders" are leading groups and it would appear receiving some type of remuneration for doing so.
Professional ski instructors (etc) do owe a greater duty of care to their clients (there are currently two appearing in court in Albertville charged with "involuntary manslaughter" following deaths of clients in Dec 2009). http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2012/03/19/sursis-requis-contre-deux-moniteurs
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
"Ski hosts" / "SCGB Leaders" are leading groups and it would appear receiving some type of remuneration for doing so.
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I can't comment on the SCGB situation but the French Alpine Club Paris section used to give its leaders vouchers for the Vieux Campeur based on the amount of trips they led. This was probably no more than an effort to make sure they had good, well maintained gear (recent beacon, replace ropes etc).
However the same issues you've mentioned have been raised and there was talk of stopping this practice.
Regarding the case you cite. I believe that Patrick Quincy, the prosecutor is on a witch hunt more concerned with his own reputation. Not someone you want to get on the wrong side of. I don't think this case will go very far but we'll see.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
Some clarification:
The issue of whether, or not, one requires the requisite qualification in France depends (with a few exceptions) on whether one is working (instructing, guiding, leading, organising) "contre remuneration".
Remuneration: this not only includes payment in cash, etc but also payment in kind (Source: DDCS - ex DDJS - This isn't my definition / interpretation).
If you are genuinely going skiing with your mates, friends etc you can do what you like .
"Ski hosts" / "SCGB Leaders" are leading groups and it would appear receiving some type of remuneration |
This is just your opinion. How about some supporting facts.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
This is just your opinion. How about some supporting facts.
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SKi Club leadershave accomodation and food provided. This counts as remuneration, a la Nixmap.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| nbt wrote: |
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This is just your opinion. How about some supporting facts.
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SKi Club leadershave accomodation and food provided. This counts as remuneration, a la Nixmap. |
And every other British TO who provides hosts...
Nixmap gets a harsh review on here when you consider that pretty much everyone else is doing the same thing (i.e., providing no salary/pocket money and accomodation etc.)
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If you dig deep enough, the club is fully transparent 
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Newsworthy events
There is no on snow Leading service in Les Arcs this week but the social hour is taking place each evening from 6pm to 7pm at Bar Chez Boubou in Arc 1800. |
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
On the other hand, a qualified French ski guide who led my group of seven paying skiers through Vallon and Chancel at La Grave a few years back on a risk 4/5 day had to provide transceivers to four of the group and as only three of us carried our own shovels, I assume it was only the three of us who had any knowledge of how to go about using a beacon or rescuing a burial.
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Interesting concept here. It implies that people who rent skis cannot ski and as such should not be allowed out on them. Why should you assume that owning the equipment (and bringing it with you) is a necessary condition for being able to use it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
And every other British TO who provides hosts...
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TO Hosts are neither leading groups off piste nor giving instruction so I'm not sure they are covered by the DDJS rules but I'm happy to be corrected on this.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Where can I find info on nix?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof,AFAIK very very few British TOs (if any?) now provide a ski-leading service in France. Last time I used it (in La Plagne a good few years back) Neilson or Crystal or whoever it was had to have an ESF tutor tag along. And pay for him. That's what killed it.
And as you say those that did/or maybe still do, mostly just give a resort overview for their guests - where to avoid queues, where the pistes are best when the sun gets up, where to eat, etc etc - not nearly on the same level as off piste guiding by the SCGB or anyone else.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On Friday next week we are getting the overnight out of Bourg to Paris. it leaves Bourg 9pm. Rather than leave it till last minute we are thinking of heading down early and going for something to eat in Bourg. Is there a left luggage place at the train station and a nice restaurant/bar within walking distance of train station.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ski Club of GB leaders are not allowed to teach in any way, only lead. Their accommodation is normally provided by the resort.
I am still not clear if the Les Arcs death happened or not, but I do know for sure that the Rep in question had been dropped by the Ski Club (assuming it is the person I am thinking of. (The particulars all fit him). The previous death was a few years ago in Verbier and I have no idea what has happened to the court case.
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| snowball wrote: |
Ski Club of GB leaders are not allowed to teach in any way, only lead. Their accommodation is normally provided by the resort.
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"Leading" falls under the French term "encadrement" (and therefore comes under the regulations.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| On Friday next week we are getting the overnight out of Bourg to Paris. it leaves Bourg 9pm. Rather than leave it till last minute we are thinking of heading down early and going for something to eat in Bourg. Is there a left luggage place at the train station and a nice restaurant/bar within walking distance of train station. |
yes there is left luggage... couple of places to eat (not so sure what you would classify as a 'nice' restaurant/bar within walking distance) but over the road there is the IndoChin which does Indian and Chinese... there are also a couple of other places literally just over the road and easily within walking distance of the station to eat at and get a drink. In fact I remember spending a 6 nations rugby game in the bar over the road from the station a few years ago. Have fun.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Steve Angus,
You forgot the MacDonalds just up the road from the station
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The way a lot of TO get around the 'guiding / leading' issue is a) tell the guests they must now follow then down a piste ' take your own line and Ill see you at the bottom of that chair lift 'x' over there' type thing b) suggest a route they will be taking and if the guests happen to follow then so be it and c) inform the guests that no commenting will be tolerated or given on a persons performance. In fact many TO are VERY adamant that it is hosting a day in the mountains NOT guiding or leading.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
If you read the above link the definition is broader than "teaching" it includes "encadrement, animation, ..." |
I agree with you that TO "guiding" services which in anyway concern clients on snow would be covered under the animation section if not encadrement.
The ski club is less clear cut for me although the fact they get some expenses provided, even though this appears to be a marketing promotion by the ski resort concerned, would seem to place them in the same situation.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think we could debate for ever what the interpretation of any law is, after lawyers spend hours in court doing so.
Surely what is more important is how those laws and regulations are implemented in practice? There are currently eleven French resorts that have ski club leaders which suggests to me, that up until now at least, the French authorities have been happy for leaders to be there. Of course rules and regulations can change as can their interpretation. As a ski club member and former leader, I think I can safely say that the ski club is continually watching what is happening with continental legislation including issues such as the changing interpretation of duty of care.
I was under the impression that the fatality in Les Arcs, assuming it did happen, was at least a year ago and I am not sure if the individual was acting in his role as a ski club leader at the time, therefore that incident might not directly have anything to do with the recent suspension of ski club leading in Les Arcs.
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johnE,
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Interesting concept here. It implies that people who rent skis cannot ski and as such should not be allowed out on them. Why should you assume that owning the equipment (and bringing it with you) is a necessary condition for being able to use it?
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I don't really agree. I think very few people who don't own transceivers will be sufficiently well practised to be useful in a search situation. When guides hand out transceivers to clients before skiing off-piste I think they have zero expetation that the clients would be of any use in a search - the bleep is only for the client's benefit. If people actually hire bleeps for a whole holiday and take time on every holiday to practice using them then they MIGHT know what they are doing.
I'm not on my high horse here - I own a transceiver and do some practice every time I go skiing but I'm only to aware of my limitations.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jedster wrote: |
johnE,
When guides hand out transceivers to clients before skiing off-piste I think they have zero expetation that the clients would be of any use in a search - the bleep is only for the client's benefit.
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Too true - when I hand out transceivers to people when im taking them off piste and 'show them how to use them / search with them' I am not really expecting anyone to find me (im looking out for them as much as myself when I choose terrain (naturally))... the transceiver really is for their benefit not mine.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jedster wrote: |
johnE,
| Quote: |
Interesting concept here. It implies that people who rent skis cannot ski and as such should not be allowed out on them. Why should you assume that owning the equipment (and bringing it with you) is a necessary condition for being able to use it?
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I don't really agree. I think very few people who don't own transceivers will be sufficiently well practised to be useful in a search situation. When guides hand out transceivers to clients before skiing off-piste I think they have zero expetation that the clients would be of any use in a search - the bleep is only for the client's benefit. If people actually hire bleeps for a whole holiday and take time on every holiday to practice using them then they MIGHT know what they are doing.
I'm not on my high horse here - I own a transceiver and do some practice every time I go skiing but I'm only to aware of my limitations. |
Agreed, most of us don't do nearly enough practice but my comment was taken well out of context anyway.
I was comparing and contrasting a first-hand experience as part of a small group of randoms skiing near-piste in Verbier, all previously unknown to each other, following an unqualified British SCGB leader and when each one of us just happened to come prepared. I didn't draw any conclusions as to whether we were all fit to search & rescue each other but as at least we all had the tools to search, probe and dig so I felt there was at least a group acknowledgement of risk and a sense of responsibility to each other.
At La Grave, on that 4/5 risk day, following a professional French guide, only three of our group arrived with full kit and the other four didn't have packs large enough to carry a shovel even if they'd been offered them. Two of the group were entirely unfamiliar with their beacons and asked what they did and the other two that were provided them, even if very experienced with them, would almost certainly have been entirely ineffectual in an emergency, without the tools to dig or probe.
So without labouring the point too much, I wasn't suggesting that people who don't own kit wouldn't know how to use it, rather that from the top down, the services of a professional guide has little or no relationship to being in responsible company.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hmmm.... isn't the ex-rep who was around when someone died in Les Arcs a snowHead who posts regularly, and indeed very recently? 
Perhaps he might care to put his side of things here?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| On Friday next week we are getting the overnight out of Bourg to Paris. it leaves Bourg 9pm. Rather than leave it till last minute we are thinking of heading down early and going for something to eat in Bourg. Is there a left luggage place at the train station and a nice restaurant/bar within walking distance of train station. |
yes there is left luggage... couple of places to eat (not so sure what you would classify as a 'nice' restaurant/bar within walking distance) but over the road there is the IndoChin which does Indian and Chinese... there are also a couple of other places literally just over the road and easily within walking distance of the station to eat at and get a drink. In fact I remember spending a 6 nations rugby game in the bar over the road from the station a few years ago. Have fun. |
Sorry, meant to post this in the Les Arcs 'offical' thread but anyway thanks you have answered my question. My idea of nice is pretty low so all sounds good.
Cheers & thanks again.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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thefatcontroller,
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Sorry, meant to post this in the Les Arcs 'offical' thread
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That's on Facebook isnt it? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Any comments on the SCGB Forums?
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| PJSki wrote: |
French law is clear on this, you don't need to be qualified to guide (or instruct) for free. |
... maybe, but in the "dangerous hosts" thread Arno told us that if you were leading a party of friends then French law would attribute responsibility to you anyway. So perhaps not quite that clear-cut a distinction.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
French law is clear on this, you don't need to be qualified to guide (or instruct) for free. |
... maybe, but in the "dangerous hosts" thread Arno told us that if you were leading a party of friends then French law would attribute responsibility to you anyway. So perhaps not quite that clear-cut a distinction. |
Yeah, so what? What does that have to do with the need for a qualification or not?
Obviously, qualified or not, your duty of care as a group leader goes up with your level of experience. Even if you weren't the chosen leader but where the most experienced, you might be liable in French law (and the law of most Alpine countries) if you failed to assume responsibility at a critical moment. But in reality the French don't bother holding expensive enquiries over a few friends trying to kill themselves, but if anyone has anything resembling a uniform then all of a sudden they take much greater interest.
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| snowball wrote: |
Ski Club of GB leaders are not allowed to teach in any way, only lead. Their accommodation is normally provided by the resort.
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If SCGB Leaders are not allowed to teach then why do they have things on their program which involve teaching? Specifically "Introduction to Off Piste"? (Source: http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skiclubleaders/programme.aspx?intRepProgrammeID=1753&dtmStart=10+Mar+2012&dtmFinish=24+Mar+2012&intResortID=44696)
In my opinion taking somebody from the known (on-piste) to the unknown (off-piste) is teaching. I would strongly contest that any such session could be possible without any teaching taking place.
(P.S. My questions are not necessarily directed at snowball as I believe snowball is stating the official position of SCGB)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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still interested to here about the les Arcs incident. Tried looking in the SCGB minutes but only found a rep had been taken off at short notice for taking bungs from Guides.
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FAQ
