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Horrific coach crash in Switzerland kills 22 children returning from ski trip

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
yes, I agree Red, we are speculating.. however, there is no way a coach is going to have its rear end break away round a dual-carriageway curve even at 100kpm. It was fully loaded with passengers and luggage, and is therefore well weighted and balanced. ASR on a coach will just not let the rear break-away. Its pretty muppet proof.

We'll have to see what the investigators find out.. But I'll put my money on a front tyre blow-out.

I guess it will pop up on 'seconds from disaster' in 12 months time.
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Chamexpress, Realistically after a 100kph impact with a solid concrete wall do you think there is any firm evidence to be found. Sad
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Samerberg Sue wrote:
Monium, Wrong, it is one of the emergency bays set back form the line of the tunnel wall that have to be included as queen bodecia says as a result of the findings from the reports on the fires in the Mont Blanc and Tauerntunnel. It does not stick out into the tunnel, so is not under normal circumstances a hazard. I drive through similar tunnels every day and they have been added to the structures if they were not included in the initial design. I believe all European tunnels over a certain length have to have them now in order to pass the safety standards.

You and leedsunited are using hindsight and incorrect interpretation to criticise and imply blame. Accidents happen, that is why they are called accidents. Currently nobody knows if there was a mechanical fault, driver error or anything. It could be as simple as a tyre blowing out or as complex as a whole cascade of events.

Let the investigators investigate, all you are doing is speculating in the hope of looking clever!


Not sure where I said anything about how the solid wall was sticking out. A recess is a good idea, but it doesn't need to be a square shape like this - you could easily have an angled wall on either end of it, with armco or other barriers to absorb some of the impact and deflect it in front of them, instead it seems there is a recess with a square wall and nothing in front of it to slow or redirect an out of control vehicle.

You won't see that kind of thing on a modern racetrack, because (as is far more common on the track) in the event of collision or other loss of control, vehicles can do all kinds of unpredictable things, especially when travelling at high speed, and where there are unpredictable road conditions (like upa mountain). Normal circumstances mean that these things are safe, however where humans and large numbers of vehicles are involved there is no such thing as "normal circumstances" - when it goes wrong, you have to try and prevent things like this from happening.

There is going to be a lot of speculation in the weeks to come. One thing that seems fairly obvious to me is that if you hit a solid concrete wall at 90 degrees, that is always going to be worse than hitting a wall at an angle which may have safety structures in front of it to take the energy out of the crash. Even with all those things, it could still have exactly the same outcome - we will never know.

We also don't know why it came off the road. I suspect that we will get more info on this over the coming weeks, but in that situation memories become distorted, kids of that age do not have any awareness of driving and what is happening on the road, but I'm sure the authorities will be going over the scene to try and work it out and prevent it happening again.
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oh dear
Quote:
Swiss crash scene investigators told Belgium's Le Soir newspaper: 'The coach was travelling at very high speed. It was going considerably faster than the speed limit on a stretch of road where the speed is limited to 100kmh.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114749/Switzerland-coach-crash-22-Belgian-children-killed-dozens-hurt.html#ixzz1p6fqWS00


and the o/s/f tyre looks fully inflated in the photo's (Can't see the n/s)
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red 27 wrote:
Chamexpress, go too fast round a RH bend, back off the gas, rear end comes round and vehicle veers right. Your example only considers understeer but physics has other ways of moving objects around...

Physics would dictate the couch would still slide off to the left side, albeit sideways.
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abc wrote:
red 27 wrote:
Chamexpress, go too fast round a RH bend, back off the gas, rear end comes round and vehicle veers right. Your example only considers understeer but physics has other ways of moving objects around...

Physics would dictate the couch would still slide off to the left side, albeit sideways.


As someone who has tried with limited success to pull out of serious oversteer, I can guarantee that any vehicle can go in almost any direction once you lose control - I oversteered on a right hand bend and the back end nearly ended up through a safety rail on the inside of the bend when trying to correct it.
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abc, No. Physics would certainly not 'dictate' that - or indeed anything. See Monium's reply above.

I (dimly) recall driving a 1976 P reg Escort 1300 down a steep hill on a dual carriageway in the south of France (t'was a few eons ago NTS) and being surprised by a sharpish right hand bend while doing about 70mph.

I (being young and dumb) panic, lift foot suddenly off the gas, the back of the car comes (quite slowly) round 270 degrees and we slam into the cliff face on the right hand side of the road boot first - still doing about 40 albeit backwards - then bounce back into the armco in the middle of the road bonnet first. Exciting.

No one was injured but it was necessary to continue the journey by taxi
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Samerberg Sue wrote:


You and leedsunited are using hindsight and incorrect interpretation to criticise and imply blame. Accidents happen, that is why they are called accidents. Currently nobody knows if there was a mechanical fault, driver error or anything. It could be as simple as a tyre blowing out or as complex as a whole cascade of events.


No such thing as an accident with things of this magnitude.
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Trouble is, to my mind, saying it wasn't an accident implies someone did this deliberately. I just don't think this is the case.

As with anything, all possibilities will have been considered and then discounted on either grounds of cost or probability, or a little of both. Reasonable safety measures were in place and this was an unexpected event. To me that's an accident.

Like the chap who fell asleep and drove his car down a motorway embankment and caused a train derailment - that was an accident. Should we now line every motorway with larger fences?

You simply cannot prevent every event without huge cost and inconvenience to everyone.
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Boris wrote:
Trouble is, to my mind, saying it wasn't an accident implies someone did this deliberately. I just don't think this is the case.


Well, that's a matter for you and your mind. Personally I'm reconciled with the notion of unintended consequence.
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Boris wrote:
As with anything, all possibilities will have been considered and then discounted on either grounds of cost or probability, or a little of both. Reasonable safety measures were in place and this was an unexpected event. To me that's an accident.

Like the chap who fell asleep and drove his car down a motorway embankment and caused a train derailment - that was an accident.


Yeah, that's why he got five years for causing death by dangerous driving.
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PJSki, Rightly so - but the implication from your posts that that accident shouldn't have happened as someone should have foreseen that possibility and built a better safety barrier there.

We will obviously differ on what is meant by accident and I don't want to side track this thread so will not be commenting further.
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Boris wrote:
PJSki, Rightly so - but the implication from your posts that that accident shouldn't have happened as someone should have foreseen that possibility and built a better safety barrier there.


I'm certainly not implying anything of the sort.
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I remember seeing such a layby in a tunnel in France this year - between Lyon and Chambery, I think.

It seemed strange to have a wall at right angles to the flow of traffic and I remember feeling a little uncomfortable passing it. I'm sure it would never have been designed like that in the UK. Tunnels are dangerous enough places without these extra hazzards.
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Bad crash. Tragedy for all involved, for sure.

The coach swerved off the road.

The coach crashed at speed into the tunnel structure. It was allegedly below the speed limit.

The tunnel clearly has inadequate safety protection. A badly designed tunnel.

It allegedly appears some seats inside became physically detached from the coach structure before or during the impact.

Bad tunnel + bad bus = bad outcome.
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Quote:

some seats inside became physically detached from the coach structure before or during the impact.


possibly before the impact? Where did you hear that?
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Boris wrote:
PJSki, Rightly so - but the implication from your posts that that accident shouldn't have happened as someone should have foreseen that possibility and built a better safety barrier there.

We will obviously differ on what is meant by accident and I don't want to side track this thread so will not be commenting further.
Had he not been up all night texting his girlfriend then getting his car he would not have fallen asleep at the wheel - Cause - No sleep. Effect - Carnage and devastation - Accidents don't just happen
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Quote:

Had he not been up all night texting his girlfriend then getting his car he would not have fallen asleep at the wheel

has that been reported somewhere?

Im almost at the point where I think that long coach trips should not be happening
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Shimmy Alcott, it was referred to at the press conference in Sion early this evening, however the translator stumbled over the point, and qualified it by saying the investigation would report on this point.
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What a horrific crash. Sad

One reason the wall may not have been tapered or protected by armco was fear of crossover accidents where a vehicle is deflected back across the carriageway, taking out other vehicles in the process and leaving others with no time to avoid piling into the carnage. Remember the motorway pile up in thick smog late last year in the UK?

Such accidents in a tunnel may have been deemed a greater risk due to increasing potential for fire, which as we've seen can have all to horrific outcomes too. Maybe the tunnel was like this for a reason, but maybe it needs to be reassessed?

Not really the time for speculation, so I'll shut up now except to say thoughts with everyone connected with hits horrible tragic incident.
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Boris,

"Like the chap who fell asleep and drove his car down a motorway embankment and caused a train derailment - that was an accident. Should we now line every motorway with larger fences? "

I think you will find that after that "accident" similar locations where it was possible for a vehicle to leave the motorway, for whatever reason, and arrive on a railway line have had enhanced barrier fencing installed.
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Shimmy Alcott wrote:
Quote:

Had he not been up all night texting his girlfriend then getting his car he would not have fallen asleep at the wheel

has that been reported somewhere?

Im almost at the point where I think that long coach trips should not be happening
Shimmy I was referring to the Great Heck train accident, the guy who caused the accident had been up all night and in no way was i referring to this tragedy
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People are speculating about what may or may not have happened. I'm going to wait for a report from expert crash investigators. We simply do not know the cause yet. But whatever the cause, this was a major tradgedy. Those poor, innocent children, those poor parents, friends and relatives. My thoughts are with them. Awful.
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I have driven from Scotland to the French Alps several times on my own. I would frequently get tired, and luckily I was under no time pressure to continue or have scheduled stops. I would just pull over to the next service station, park up, and have a sleep if I was really tired.

I never did that journey once, without one overnight stop. (from Zeebrugge to Switzerland)

Having never worked for a living as a long distance driver, I got some insight into what it is like. Many lorry drivers kip in their lorries, yet these snow coaches just go all the way without stopping. Maybe they have two drivers to reduce the risk.

I do not know why the accident occurred, but I do know that long distance driving results in driver fatigue.

Sad
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The Swiss authorities have revealed that 15 of the children who died in the bus accident in Switzerland on Tuesday evening were Belgian and seven were Dutch.

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/10284/Crash-Belgische-autobus/article/detail/3225499/2012/03/14/Zeven-Nederlandse-kinderen-omgekomen-bij-busramp.dhtml

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Shock_after_Valais_coach_crash_leaves_28_dead.html?cid=32292310

http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/swiss-bus-crash-kills-22-belgian-and-dutch-children
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Bigtipper wrote:
Many lorry drivers kip in their lorries, yet these snow coaches just go all the way without stopping. Maybe they have two drivers to reduce the risk.

I read in one report there was a backup driver. He (I'm assuming it's a 'he') was also killed in the collision.
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Does anyone know how long this emergency lay-by is? Is it possible it was long enough to be mistaken as the 'slow' lane and the driver deliberately turned into it?
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Bigtipper,
Quote:
I do not know why the accident occurred, but I do know that long distance driving results in driver fatigue
There were two drivers, and they drove down the day before and had had whole day of rest before starting the journey. The Swiss are saying they don't think fatigue had anything to do with it. At the moment they simply don't know, but are saying that they have three theories, one being that the driver may have had some medical problem (e.g heart attack), the driver made a driving error (seems there are videos showing the bus touching the kerb and the going out of control), or the bus had a technical fault (e.g a burst tyre).
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boredsurfin wrote:
rob@rar, I cant remember clearly but the refurb of the Tunnel at Chambery included putting curved panels by any projections, I thought they were aesthetic, maybe not!


The Chambery tunnel refurb was to bring the tunnel up to latest european standards so I would hope this would include some kind of safety measures. The tunnel is good as it is also three lanes. A number of days of the week I take the Swiss airport tunnels which some snowheads don't like, Mont Sion tunnel (also up to latest euro standards) and the Chambery tunnel by coach so an accident like this is very pertinent for me.

Our coach drivers seem to be under quite a lot of pressure wrt to time keeping because if they get delayed they may have to stop and call out another driver. This can even happen on long distance coaches with two drivers on-board. The coach I take is limited to 100kph, which I think is a standard after some high speed crashes in France in the last decade. It still seems quite quick though.
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Schuss in Boots wrote:
A blow out? The rear nearside tyre looks to be flat in one of the pics. No telling whether this was before/during/after though.


It looks to me just like it's loaded more because of the angle the bus is resting at. A left side blow out would pull the bus left, it's gone right. Right hand front wheel blow out could cause bus to veer to the right as could a suspension air bag failure. Just wandering in the lane though driver error I'd say was unlikely as the sloped kerb would tend to throw the bus back away from it. Heart attack or similar, failing mechanical failure, maybe.
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Whitegold wrote:


It allegedly appears some seats inside became physically detached from the coach structure before or during the impact.

.


It's a surprise that any part of it stayed together, the bus probably weighs about 24 tonnes, going say 50 mph, into a solid concrete wall. The G forces and kinetic energy at time of impact would be enormous. The only energy dissipation would be from the destruction of the bus itself having hit a fully immovable object. That anybody survived is a testament to the bus's design.
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davidof,
The 100kph limit is pretty universal for coaches throughout europe and the speed limiter will be set to this. Unless the newer coaches have something more sophisticated than anything I have driven then it is still possible to go faster than this downhill because the speed limiter only reduces the fuel supply to the engine, mechanically on older vehicles and electronically on newer ones. The actual speed is still reorded by the tachograph though. I think there are newer coaches and trucks either out, or coming out, that automatically apply brakes if you get too close to the vehicle in front etc. and I am not sure if they will link this to the speed limiter.
The time pressure in driving with 2 drivers, and I only know this for certain for trucks, coaches may be slightly different, is that for 2 days a week you can have a "duty time" of 15 hours (in fact it is governed by your minimum rest time of 9 hours in 24 giving the 15 hours). If both drivers are in the bus then this 15 hours starts from when they start work, which may be checking and loading the vehicle, and ends when they walk away from it at the end of the day. They can swap driving pretty well as many times as they wish within the individual maximum of 10 hours driving (twice a week, 9 hours on other days) made up of maximum 4.5 hour stints.
The problem comes if you experience bad delays and do not make it to the ferry or whatever in the 15 hours, you must then stop. If you have a sleeper cab on a truck that is not such a disaster but with 50+ passengers it must become a big issue. Again I am only certain of this for trucks but sleeping in a moving vehicle, even if it has a separate sleeping area, is not counted as rest so the second driver has no more hours if he started work the same time as the other driver.
I am not an expert on any of this, I just run some trucks, but drivers are human, it is hard work and there are lots of pressures much of which comes from things over which they have little control.
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The newest (big) tunnel I know of; just opened last year, is from the Trento North junction (of the Verona/Brennero motorway) that goes towards Cles. It’s actually an underground by-pass (it cuts out having to go through Mezzolombardo town centre). I use this new route at least 4 or 5 times a week.

See Here

Anyway, there are right angled lay-bys all the way through this, on both sides of the road. Not sure but I would think that this shows that the mere fact of having lay-bys with right angled walls doesn’t make a tunnel old fashioned or anything else and they are still considered a safe addition to tunnel design.


Spyderman wrote:
the bus probably weighs about 24 tonnes, going say 50 mph, into a solid concrete wall..


This would give you an impact force of 18,869.97 tonnes

NOTES
Of course this would be at the impact point (ie the very first part of the bus to hit the wall) and would only be for a very small fraction of a second. The force would be drastically diminished by time due to the conversion through the other parts of the bus (and to a small extent) the wall itself and the road surface. It is this conversion which gives the bus front its shattered look and the rear of the bus a semblance of normality.
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Quote:

It is this conversion which gives the bus front its shattered look and the rear of the bus a semblance of normality.


Well that plus the spaceframe design that this bus apparently has, some critisised this saying it may have lead to greater damage but in reality a spaceframe design means that each section of the frame takes a little of the energy, so the front of the bus deformed far more than the rear, an old fashioned solid chassis would tend to transfer the full load from front to back, so whilst you can say that all modern bus type vehicles have no crumple zones (front seat passengers being probably less than 1M from the front of the bus) in effect the entire structure acts as a crumple zone, so in a head on collision those at the rear stand a better chance of survival and vice versa, in reality though any vehicle going from near 100kph to 0kph nearly instantly is going to be very very bad for the occupants Sad

To paraphrase Newton, a body in motion will tend to remain in motion until acted on by an external force, in this case a few comments have been made about seat belts or lack of them, with such a crash anyone not wearing a seatbelt will be thrown forward (remember the elephant in back seat advert ?) however coach seatbelts tend to be waistbelts and all they will do in a high speed crash is help crush the internal organs as the rest of the body is thrown forward, seatbelts on coaches are a good idea, especially when crashes occur at lower speeds or where a vehicle turns over or onto its side, but a high speed rapid stop crash will always be bad news, EuroNCAP tests are made at significantly lower speeds (64kph) and vs deformable barriers, because they know that you can't design vehicles to protect passengers at far higher speeds with current technology, even then it is doubtful as to how many you can save because internal organs carry on moving forwards within the body and may rupture or tear causing massive internal bleeding.

Personally I also feel very badly for the rescue people, recovering dead bodies is never nice but recovering so many of such a young age must have been particularly traumatic for them Sad
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17363771

In this video, the reporter drives through the tunnel in the opposite direction (i.e. through the other tunnel), and there is a similar recess, but there is clearly an angled Armco-type barrier placed at an angle in front of it.

I won't speculate whether there was one in the location of the accident, or not.

But the whole thing is just too awful for words.
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Bigtipper wrote:
I have driven from Scotland to the French Alps several times on my own. I would frequently get tired, and luckily I was under no time pressure to continue or have scheduled stops. I would just pull over to the next service station, park up, and have a sleep if I was really tired.

I never did that journey once, without one overnight stop. (from Zeebrugge to Switzerland)

Having never worked for a living as a long distance driver, I got some insight into what it is like. Many lorry drivers kip in their lorries, yet these snow coaches just go all the way without stopping. Maybe they have two drivers to reduce the risk.

I do not know why the accident occurred, but I do know that long distance driving results in driver fatigue.

Sad


I used to be a transport manager, and can confirm that any professional driver can do 8 hours straight, no problemo, unless they have been up half the night for whatever reason. They have to take their breaks - these are a bit complicated, but basically they have to put in a 45 minute stop during their shift (the law dictates this, total working hours, and all kinds of other stuff, and it is a very foolish driver that breaks those rules, especially with passengers on board, because they are personally liable) and the tacho will tell the investigators everything on this front.

They will recover the tacho, and you will see exactly what speed they were driving at when the accident happened, you will see what speed they've been driving at since starting the journey (they weren't far into it) and how many hours they had been driving for already. It draws a neat graph of the whole journey, and the police/VOSA can ask a driver for his tacho at pretty much any time.

There is pressure on time to avoid running out of hours - though for a journey like this the driver can be at the wheel for a very long time before that becomes a problem. They double up on this type of journey so that you don't have to sit in the coach with a driver taking his minimum overnight break between long shifts - otherwise you'd have to stop after an absolute max of 11 hours for him to sleep. The other driver takes over when driver one has done his absolute max hours (or they are very confident of making their destination within the working hours required, allowing for traffic and any other delay) and finishes the journey. For it to become a problem, your journey would need to be more than 22 hours.

The real danger on a trip like this is the second driver not being fully rested after 11 hours of sitting in the passenger seat. This is one reason why people shouldn't spend the journey asking a million questions and disturbing the drivers - it is ok for the driver, but the second driver needs to be rested for the last stretch of the journey.

So in short, there are two drivers because of EU driving hours regulations. Neither needs to sleep on the journey, but some will get a few hours during the daytime leg in order to be rested for their shift. If the drivers ran out of hours, because they didn't manage their shifts properly, that would be a schoolboy error, and the manager would go properly apeshit. Partly because the only way to get a coach back with drivers that have run out of hours is to send another vehicle with two drivers - one of which has hours left to drive, the other to bring back the "taxi" that took him out there. Neither of the drivers who have run out of hours can drive the "taxi" home again, because they have run out of hours.
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Monium, davidof, As Monium points out the duty time for double manned vehicles is 22hours rather than the 15 hours I quoted, which is for single drivers. Sorry about that, my mistake.
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skitow wrote:
Monium, davidof, As Monium points out the duty time for double manned vehicles is 22hours rather than the 15 hours I quoted, which is for single drivers. Sorry about that, my mistake.

Or was it different for truck vs couch?
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abc, not really. There are a few additional laws around carrying passengers, but they don't affect the driving hours from memory - the hours are the same for a LGV, HGV or Coach.
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Daily Mail reports that the driver 'may have been helping teacher to change a DVD.' Can't find any mention anywhere else though, so it may be a Daily Mail pure speculation story. They give several different versions in a single article.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114749/Swiss-bus-crash-First-pictures-22-children-adults-killed.html
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