 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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 tragic news
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I can't believe the damage the coach has sustained. RIP to all those concerned and thoughts to their families at this horrible time. X
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Awful. Very sad
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boredsurfing, It's not so much that the wall is projecting, more that there is a recess in the tunnel to aid in emergencies, this isn't a narrow tunnel either, it has quite wide pavements that the bus must have ridden up onto beforehand.
Shocking accident and a terrible loss of life 
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D G Orf, I know this tunnel very well - it's a tunnel just down the hill from us. It has the usual 100kph speed limit. Terrible accident. But the tunnel is no different to thousands in the Alps. It is curved, it has kerbs, but they are all well marked, with good lighting. The bus will have come down all the Val D'Anniviers steep curves, and the brakes will have been well used. The tunnel is only a few hundred metres from where the road comes down the hill and joins the autoroute, so long journey fatigue unlikely to be an issue, although the drivers will have been laid up all week while the kids skied. But the Swiss are meticulous in such investigations and it should be clear if a mechanical was a contributing factor. Air Glaciers doing their usual fine job, out of Sion and Zermatt.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Such awful news - breaks my heart.
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the Swiss are meticulous in such investigations
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good, I hope we can learn something from their findings - it takes some doing for that many to be killed
May they all Rest in Peace.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Tragic
I was suprised how that many could be killed given the speed limits, but would appear that it was a full head on crash into a wall, which does explain it.
Really feel for all those involved
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You know it makes sense.
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Shocking crash
I've never really bothered with seat belts when travelling by coach. Changed my mind now as a result of this and the other coach crash earlier this season.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Terrible.
rob@rar, several of the Austrian coaches I travelled in in January didn't even have seatbelts.
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Poster: A snowHead
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D G Orf, But that recess has the full length of the coach and the full width of the wall across the front of it, there is no armco or protection visible to 'bounce' an out of control vehicle away from it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| ... there is no armco or protection visible to 'bounce' an out of control vehicle away from it |
The absence of that amazed me. A glancing blow would probably have had a far less traumatic outcome than the head on crash.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, I cant remember clearly but the refurb of the Tunnel at Chambery included putting curved panels by any projections, I thought they were aesthetic, maybe not!
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Seat belts are not going to help those in the front section of the coach in an accident like this. Very sad.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A blow out? The rear nearside tyre looks to be flat in one of the pics. No telling whether this was before/during/after though.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
Terrible.
rob@rar, several of the Austrian coaches I travelled in in January didn't even have seatbelts. |
It's amazing we ever survived as children.
That said I always use seatbelts when provided in coaches.
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Seatbelts would not have saved the people in the front rows whether they were wearing them correctly or not. Plus the children were primary age or near, so the seatbelts may have actually caused some of the injuries.
The pictures of the damaged coach are horrific and seem to indicate a catastrophic loss of control for some reason, resulting in a head-on collision with the end wall of an emergency recess. If the same loss of control had occurred further along the tunnel or elsewhere along the route perhaps the driver could have managed a controlled stop somehow.
It looks like a tragic accident to me, something that could no be foreseen or prevented, nor blame apportioned. These things sadly do still occur. My heart goes out to all those involved.
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Seatbelts would not have saved the people in the front rows whether they were wearing them correctly or not.
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Samerberg Sue, quite true, but 24 children were injured, some seriously. That means all of the survivors. We can only guess at how much the seat belts would have helped them. Also, it is conceivable, that some of the victims further back may have survived wearing seat belts.
None the less, this is just speculation...
A horrible tragedy, indeed. I can only imagine the pain that the bereaved are going through.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
It looks like a tragic accident to me, something that could no be foreseen or prevented, nor blame apportioned. |
Sorry to say it, but a solid concrete wall of that width, at that angle, next to the carriageway is not a necessary part of tunnel design, and it could have been rectified. This can't be the first time someone has crashed into a structure of that type.
To describe the accident as something that could not be prevented is silly. Of course it could. The coach may still lose control, human error could be involved, but the outcome could have been very different.
No doubt we have already seen changes to tunnel design, perhaps we will see a few of the older tunnels reviewed as a result of this accident. I've driven through a lot of older tunnels with similar structures, and it is surprising they don't have any barriers to dissipate the force and prevent vehicles from hitting a solid structure at high speed.
It is tragic, but it is also completely preventable. That makes it even more tragic to me. In the coming weeks I expect we will see blame being apportioned, and some very upset families will no doubt be pursuing those who didn't do more to prevent this.
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So sad , and worse for those left behind to mourn ,
The drivers had apparently driven down the day before so should have been rested, I do hope at these times it's not human error ,
God be with them
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Very Tragic and thoughts to all those effected. RIP
Monium, You are correct in your comments. The dictionary defines accident as "an unexpected and undesirable event, a mishap unforeseen and without apparent cause." Strictly speaking, most accidents are not accidents at all: they are collisions that could and should have been avoided. So, what causes them?
Four factors contribute to the vast majority of collisions. In ascending order they are:
Equipment Failure
Roadway Design
Poor Roadway Maintenance
Driver Behavior
Over 95% of motor vehicle accidents involve some degree of driver behavior combined with one of the other three factors. I just hope that valued lessons can be learnt from this very sorry event.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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absolutely terrible, very sad and tragic news
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Monium, I might be wrong but from the pictures it looks as though the wall is the side of the emergency exit route from the tunnel which I believe is a requirement following the Mont Blanc tunnel disaster. It doesn't stick out beyond the tunnel wall. It's just tragically unlucky that the coach lost control (for whatever reason) at that point. But that's not to say that a vehicle couldn't spin out of control and hit a tunnel wall at any other point too. Tunnel walls don't always have armco in front of them, and of course you can't cover an emergency exit route with armco. Tunnels are inherently dangerous, it's like driving along a road with a cliff face on either side.
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You know it makes sense.
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This is a simply awful accident and our thoughts must be with the families, children and people affected.
Having sifted through the various reports.. it appear that the drivers did not stay all week, but arrived the day before. This in itself it not a problem as they would have had the whole day to rest prior to departure.
It seems that they were only a matter of 30-40 minutes into the journey. So driver fatigue at this stage seems unlikely. The coach is unlikely to have been speeding as the vehicle is engine governed to a limit of 100kph. There should be no issues with vehicle braking as modern coaches such as this Neoplan are fitted with 4 independent braking systems: 1. Telma Retarder, 2. Normal foot brake. 3. Exhaust brake (which chokes the engine). 4. Handbrake.
In my professional view, it seems possible that the cause of the accident was a 'blow-out' on one of the front tyres. This then caused the vehicle to swerve into the side of the tunnel, run along the tunnel wall until it hit the concrete division between an emergency lane and main tunnel lane. The tunnel was a dual lane tunnel, so that gives a fair bit of space for the drivers to react.
What also concerns me, is that if it is a blow-out. I will be interested to see if it was due to sabotage of the side wall of the front tyre.
The Neoplan coach involved is of an integral 'space-frame' design, and in the event of a front-on impact there is little crumple zone or structure protecting both the drivers and the front passengers.
it is likely that the coach was fitted with lap-belts, however many passsengers, particularly children, do not wear them (even if instructed to do so). This may well have contributed to the loss of life. Coupled with the fact that it was a severe frontal impact and therefore may of the seat frames may have broken loose from the floor, much as they do in an aircraft crash.
Once again, our thoughts and prayers go out to all those involved and affected by this terrible accident.
Andrew
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Monium, Wrong, it is one of the emergency bays set back form the line of the tunnel wall that have to be included as queen bodecia says as a result of the findings from the reports on the fires in the Mont Blanc and Tauerntunnel. It does not stick out into the tunnel, so is not under normal circumstances a hazard. I drive through similar tunnels every day and they have been added to the structures if they were not included in the initial design. I believe all European tunnels over a certain length have to have them now in order to pass the safety standards.
You and leedsunited are using hindsight and incorrect interpretation to criticise and imply blame. Accidents happen, that is why they are called accidents. Currently nobody knows if there was a mechanical fault, driver error or anything. It could be as simple as a tyre blowing out or as complex as a whole cascade of events.
Let the investigators investigate, all you are doing is speculating in the hope of looking clever!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Look at the first two pictures in the link. It looks like the green section sticks out at 90 degrees from the tunnel wall. It may just be the angle of the pictures though??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thornyhill, Looked recessed to me, accept this could by my eyes. My untrained thinking is the coach slid along the wall until the recess then dropped into it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thornyhill, what Samerberg Sue, said is correct. The bays do not stick out into the tunnel, they are there as a safe place for cars to stop and call for help if they have mechanical problems in the tunnel. I also think we should let the investigators investigate...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Samerberg Sue,
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Seatbelts would not have saved the people in the front rows whether they were wearing them correctly or not
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Plainly. For the avoidance of doubt, my remark about seatbelts was not intended as a criticism of Austria in particular.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The first two pictures in this BBC gallery show that they are recesses rather than sticking out, but isn't that irrelevant? The salient fact is that there is an unprotected solid wall at right angles to the direction of travel. There is a risk that any vehicle which loses control could slid along the tunnel side wall and directly hit the end of this safety lane, in catastrophic circumstances as seems to have been the case here. As boredsurfin pointed out, the perpendicular wall isn't protected by a barrier such as armco which might have been able to direct/bounce any out-of-control vehicle back in to the tunnel.
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I assume that there is no armco as the lane is designed to be entered by vehicles, this has recently appeared on the BBC article
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I have just driven along the route where the accident happened. The coach hit a kerb and then swerved into what is a "stop lane" inside the tunnel. It appears to have then carried on and hit the wall at the end of the lane. Judging by the catastrophic destruction of the bus and the loss of life, this was at a very high speed indeed.
This tunnel is viewed as one of the safest - a motorway tunnel with two lanes each way and a divider so traffic is not facing head-to-head. It looks as though there were no other vehicles involved in this accident.
Although there have been safety questions over some of the more elderly Alpine tunnels, with just two lanes facing each other, this was not one of those. This was a newer tunnel with a lot of safety features - escape lanes, escape telephones, and it's very wide. There should be enough space for traffic not to hit the kerb. |
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I hadn't seen the first two pictures in the BBC gallery before posting above.
Looking at them, the tunnel was bending to the Right, and the coach careered to the Right. This is against the law of physics, so the vehicle was not being driven too fast etc. or it would have hit the left-hand wall, and not the Right Hand Emergency Bay. IMHO a tyre failure looks more and more likely, which resulted in a sudden swerve of the coach to the right, where it entered the emergency bay and had a 100kph head-on with the concrete wall end of the emergency bay.
Tunnel design was a contributing factor, as a small curved piece of armco could have been placed slightly before the entrance to the emergency bay to deflect any out-of-control vehicles. But, as the emergency bay is on the inside wall of the bend in the tunnel, I guess they decided it wasn't necessary due to Physics sending any out-of-control vehicles into the opposite wall. Sadly that was not the case in the accident.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Chamexpress, go too fast round a RH bend, back off the gas, rear end comes round and vehicle veers right. Your example only considers understeer but physics has other ways of moving objects around...
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You and leedsunited are using hindsight and incorrect interpretation to criticise and imply blame. Accidents happen, that is why they are called accidents. Currently nobody knows if there was a mechanical fault, driver error or anything. It could be as simple as a tyre blowing out or as complex as a whole cascade of events.
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Samerberg Sue, I think you misinterpret what both Monium, and I are saying and i do not think either of us are trying to be clever or imply blame but accidents do not just happen, in almost 99.9% of cases there is a cause and if as you point out it was as simple as a tyre blowing out then we need to understand why it blew out. If you remember the Paris Concorde tragedy there was absolutely nothing wrong with the air worthiness of the aircraft, the cause was debri left by a previous aircraft on take off, cause and effect - very tragic in both these examples.
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