Taking lessons, or rather not taking lessons.

A snowHead

We're just at the end of a somewhat frustrating group chalet holiday with a mixed ability bunch and I want to work out whether I'm being a bit prissy or whether my companions are missing the point of skiing. The OH and I are capable intermediates who can tackle pretty much anything on the piste and are beginning to venture off, and we took a few lessons this week to improve technique and generally get better at skiing. We were the only ones who did. Of the others there was one first week skier who had spent half a day being taught to snowplough turn on a dry slope, two second weekers who had a couple of lessons last year and are very good at crashing into other people on the slopes, and a few lower intermediates. I've spent a lot of time either coaxing people down blue runs that are "steep and scary" or waiting at the side of the piste for eons whilst they zigzag slowly (all the way) across the piste.

Is it irrational of me to think these people actually have a bit of a duty to learn properly? They don't have the tools to respond to varying conditions, or to get themselves out of trouble if they feel they're losing control, and they also seem to cause a disproportionate number of crashes/near crashes compared to others I have skied with. Moreover, where is the joy in sitting in a snowplough on a green run all day, every day for a week? Is it actually skiing?

A snowHead

Book them in with ESF. Done.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Spannah, Change the people you ski with, they are obviously losers.

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In mixed ability groups, you should be off doing your thing, their business what they get up to, have a laugh over it later on over some bevs. Focus on your holiday and don't give second thought to the beginners if they are not interested in your advice

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

We had the same issue last year- we took a friend along and because he didn't want to take lessons, we ended up spending a lot of the week coaching him, which meant we didn't get to do a lot of the runs (and this was Chamrousse which is quite small). I was glad to get a few runs in on my own.

This year we are in a group of 6, 3 of whom are basically beginners and will need lessons (not that they have booked any yet and we go next Saturday!!).

We are going to leave them to it, whether they do lessons or not, and maybe meet up for lunch and/or just in the evening.

At the end of the day it is your holiday too, and you shouldn't feel bad about making the best use of your time at the resort- you've paid for it after all.

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We did spend most of the week doing our own thing after getting very frustrated on the first two mornings - our lessons were a good excuse to escape. Meeting for lunch was a bit hit and miss because even choosing the easy run accessible restaurants gave our companions some difficulty - there was an incident where we ended up lunching by ourselves as the blue run caused a meltdown for one of the group. I just don't get it really, surely being intimidated by people skiing round you all day would be a reason to learn to get better! I'm surprised that other people have experienced the same thing with other beginners tbh, I thought it was just people I know being stubborn!

Axsman, I suspect you're right and will be looking for new ski companions in the future.

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Spannah, I agree with MrSteve and patricksh, it is not your duty to use your holiday time (and lift pass) to supervise them. You can do so if you want to, but you are not obliged to do so IMHO.

After all it is free

Lessons -> better technique -> less tiring -> more confidence -> more fun

The best thing I did was book a couple of private lessons with my at the time girlfriend. Cost the same as a weeks ski school but learnt a lot in a short time.

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I think there must be a lot of people who think lessons are boring or that they don't need them. Maybe they're thinking "I never needed lessons to play football why I need them for skiing?"

I always enjoy my lessons. I improve my skiing, get to ski with people of the same ability, and the instructors know where the good slopes are and interesting places to ski.

But no, there's no duty on them to learn. They do have a duty to not be a danger to other skiers but that's pretty much it.

But you have no duty to baby sit them. Leave them to it and go enjoy yourself.

Mike

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Don't commit to skiing with anyone below your ability level. We all enjoy a potter around every now and then and some social skiing but I wouldn't commit to skiing for a sustained period as its frustrating on both sides: the less able/more timid don't like the feeling of being rushed, the more able don't like hanging around.

Re Instruction, some people really don't take well to it and it can be a long time to find an instructor you click with, particularly if you're just taking pot luck with local group lessons. It's quite easy to feel lectured at or be overwhelmed with too much at once so I know why some people drop them.

Never had a single ski lesson in my life. I've taught myself everything I know from snowplough turns, to becoming parallel and now carving. The one thing I can't teach myself to do and I've tried and failed, is skiing off piste or in deeper powder conditions. I will get lessons for this. I've watched videos onlin which are free and this has helped me lots. Everyone is different in how the learn to do a new skill. Some people will need lessons, I'm just not that type of person!

You know it makes sense.

Not only that, but from the other side of the coin it is possible that your skiing buddies knew that they were holding you back and might have been glad to see you and OH go off and enjoy yourself for a lot of the time by yourselves. I am well aware that I still continue to be the 'weakest link' in my party. I get the kids a private instructor for a couple of mornings so they can have fun, and I always go OTT in ensuring that anyone kind enough to want to come along for a few hours to ski socially with us knows that they aren't going to have the time of their lives hooning around the mountain at break neck speed. Spannah, did you think to suggest to your companions that you split up for a session each day? Tthey may have been grateful for the suggestion!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I would encourage skiiers to do their own skiing without feeling compelled to coach weaker skiers in their group. Regarding lessons though, my experience is that these can be complete crap and a waste of time (maybe because the progress of the group is determined by the weakest skier, but mainly because most ski instructors (with esf anyway) don't do a whole lot ot teaching, you are just paying thru the nose to “follow the leader”). You need an instructor when you first start, or when you go off-piste. But between these extremes, if you want to improve, you just gotta do your own thing, ski as much as possible, push yourself, either solo or with someone of similar ability AND attitude

A snowHead

I think there's only so much you can teach yourself and in the end it's good to have someone who's knows what they're talking about point out where you're going wrong in your technique rather than going it alone reinforcing bad technique time and time again, tends to make bad habits harder and harder to snap out of. On the other hand there's nothing wrong if you're enjoying yourself and are happy at that, that's what it's about for most at the end of the day. Very Happy

A snowHead

sounds more like you were a pain than the slow people. they would probably be glad to see the back of you.
not every one is going to measure up to your exacting standards so hassling beginners to go down, easy to you, "steep" slopes isn't making their holiday much fun.

if your such a herd animal find a herd that can keep up

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Gosh, mugen, did you mean to be so rude? I spent no time hassling anyone to go down any slope, indeed I spent most of our holiday off with the OH doing our own thing. I was expressing surprise at the lack of want to progress, and the resultant safety issues from their lack of skill. Whenever we skied with the others we chose to go at their pace and chose to help them when they were out of their depth. Indeed, having had some situations when they got themselves stuck and we were on the receiving end of a phonecall asking for help, I'm even more surprised that they didn't seek to further their skills by having some tuition.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Ricklovesthepowder, it sounds as though you enjoy the challenge of learning and improving by yourself. Nothing wrong with that and knowing your limits helps. It sounds as though Spannah's companions aren't progressing under their own steam. I think I was a bit over-reliant on lessons for a while, lacking the confidence to just get out there and ski. I spent my first few holidays following the group and was nervous of skiing without an instructor. Then I got to a level where there wasn't sufficient demand for the ski school to be running daily classes so I had to do something different. I now appreciate that I need to both get a few more miles in and to take lessons when I hit a plateau (odd analogy, but you know what I mean).

Of with a mixed group next weekend and it will be interesting to see how it works out this year.

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Going on holiday as a group is fine mostly (we know of friends who went on holiday as a group and don't even speak to each other now)
Skiing as a group can be a pain
Three or four of about the same ability can be fun but once you get more it starts to be a bit of a pain
Much prefer to ski as a couple and meet other at a lunch stop or at end of the day

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After all it is free

Go with your friends. Most beginners I now are sensible enough to take at least morning lessons everyday. If you want to see them on slopes during the day do so by taking an afternoon out. I use to ski all week with my brother hard and fast. Then at the end of the week go out with mum and show her where we had been all week.

They do have a duty to learn to be better as faster skiers have a duty to not crash into beginners.

You can ski with lower level skiers. You just need to ski slower Sad

It is a good way of practising your own technique and control by skiing slower anyhow. One technique to use more of the slope is to ski around the poles on the side of the slope weaving back and forth about a 1metre behind each other. Do this with one of your faster friends. Good technique for control, learnt it when doing off piste course. Will enhance your skills so you are not as dangerous off piste.

Can still be fun. Not for your whole trip though Very Happy

There does seem to be a trend for people to not get lessons and not looking after there or anybody elses personal safety on the slopes.

Something to do with it being an easy sport to learn???? Puzzled

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My experience with this has been pretty direct lately. A whole bunch of my friends here have just started skiing but aren't taking lessons. Most are actually surprisingly capable in terms of maintaining control and skiing down most slopes but their skiing style is terrible. They're safe but not very effective skiers and given their level of confidence and general ability it wouldn't take them many lessons to really develop their skiing further yet they all seem reticent to do so. I think in this case it's mostly because they feel like they are making progress on their own. People do get better on their own with a bit of nudging and the occasional pointer. I've even taken one of the better guys ski touring which isn't bad for something like 10-15 days skiing. Skiing isn't that hard to learn but it's hard to learn to do well.

So you can learn without taking lessons but like anything it requires the ability to be self-reflective and perhaps someone more experienced to show you the ropes. That's certainly how I learnt to climb for example.

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Ok joking aside ( my "losers " comment was a joke right?). For the last four years i have done a week with two mates who, four years ago had never skied. They had private lessons in the morning and we skied together After lunch. Ok the first couple of days were pretty slow as they could only just snowplough but I'd worn myself out in the morning anyway. By year two they were getting it and from then on it worked just fine. They are a bit younger and a lot fitter than me so now it's a case of me just keeping up with them.

They have really enjoyed their intro to skiing and I've enjoyed being part of that process. The secret of happiness (for mixed ability/learner skiing) is private lessons. (And patience from the more experienced skier). snowHead

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Of course I have discussed it with my friends, mugen.

I guess the issue with this lot was the lack of progression, rather than lack of lessons. I'm a terribly competitive person, mostly with myself, so I don't really understand not wanting to progress in something - particularly not beyond the very basics. I was expecting more the scenario Axsman describes above when we booked the trip, and was looking a little bit forward to them progressing at a sport I love, and also helping them do so. The lack of want to improve, and the inability to look out for anyone else on the piste, was both confusing and a little annoying to me. Maybe they enjoyed themselves though, they're raving on Facebook about how epic they were....

I also think private lessons are the way forward - that's what we have always gone for, and the progress I have seen in myself in just a couple of two hour lessons is superb.

Time to start looking forward to the next trip, I guess.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I agree with Axsman. Not just skiing, any sport with a level of extreme to it.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Ditch them. Then talk about how fantastic it was to do "red" run because you went to this fabulous restaurant or village or bar or something. Most will soon get the hint and look to progress.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The reason I rarely took lessons was because OH took lesseons in afternoon, we wud lunch together and ski together in afternoon, so only chance I get to rip is in am. I found group lessons, following leader down blues, no advice what I was doing wrong whenever I skidded etc, to be useless, when I could be doing blacks/ moguls etc. I believe if you go at it with the right mindset a lot just comes to you. Why are kids so good with so little instruction. It is easier when young but still doable when older. I appreciate advice re private lessons, I had one which was crap, so mustnt base all opinion on that. But let me make one observation: I know so many “intermediate” skiers who have taken intermediate classes for years but still completely lose mojo when faced with any semi-steep red without instructor present and you can't make them ski fast. I think you need both

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Ricklovesthepowder, off-piste is just a different surface, skiing it is pretty much the same but you need to adapt to the different feeling of skiing and the change in handling caused by the increase in ski surface coming into play. Really deep fluffy powder is about the easiest snow to ski, really gentle movements yeilding big results. It's skiing with no effort.

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I think if you can ski down a piste safely and under control, no lessons are needed

If you cant then you should have lessons, but as has already been said, give a few pointers but dont spend your holiday teaching others the skill you have through taking your own lessons.

After all it is free

Just wondering how many skiers who say they don't need lessons, or who have self taught themselves, are actually sitting back, banking to the inside, and are over using rotary forces in their turning? If our mountain is a cross section of the skiing population, then it seems to be about 90% who could still do with a few lessons.

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Myself and the OH started skiing about 10 years ago coaxed ny my sister and brother in law. We've always had a couple of days private lessons at least once per year as it gave my sister and he other half the chance to do their own thing whilst we were having lessons and we usualy skiied with them the rest of the holiday - the result is now we ski wiith them and are of a similar standard and can keep up and do whatever they want to do. Ive got friends whove done ski school every year for a similar length of time to us and to be honest their standard is pitiful and actually puts us off including them because they wont try and extend themselves. I think if you go in a group you have to commit to lessons to improve to the groups minimum standard - its a holiday for everyone and that holiday shouldnt just be spent every day on blues and greens. To be honest I dislike blues and greens imensely due to the number of out of control skiers on them. In my opinion you should have to attain a minimum competence level before you are allowed a liftpass - this would make everyone a little safer

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Taking lessons, or rather not taking lessons.

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