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Helmet or not?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
Head Injury Causes

Traumatic head injury affects more than 1.7million people in the United States each year including almost a half million children; 52,000 people die.

Adults suffer head injuries most frequently due to falls, motor vehicle crashes, colliding or being struck by an object, and assaults. Falls and being struck are the most common causes of head injury in children.


http://www.emedicinehealth.com/head_injury/article_em.htm

I think anyone who doesn't wear a helmet the whole time is nuts. By not taking it off, you avoid the (very minor) inconvenience of wearing one just for recreational purposes. And all for the cost of a good night out.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, fair enough, IIRC Lidl/Aldi are unbranded Giros. But saying that, if you find a £20 uncomfortable or poorly fitting your head-shape, it's a false economy. IMHO, you can tell the difference in quality in both construction and materials when you start looking at over £100 for a helmet - my POC was about £120 and it's head and shoulders above my previous lids, particularly in terms of materials and heat retention/air flow.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum wrote:
I don't think price can be cited as a reason for making the decision one way or another


I think that the only valid reason for not wearing one is personal choice, when it comes to crash helmets my kids are denied that particular element of personal choice (TBH I think they'd wear them anyway as mum and dad do).

Some people are willing to take the risk because they don't get on with them, I've got no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is people saying they are 'a complete waste of time' and 'useless' when they clearly aren't.

If a beginner boarder followed James the Last's advice and then fell backwards and spilt their brain out all over an exposed rock, that would just be a negligible statistic in James' book, but you can be damn sure it wouldn't be negligible for his\her family\loved ones.

I'm all for a sensible debate and respect other people's POV on the subject, but I'll have no truck with reckless (possibly life endangering) BS comments.
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Richard_Sideways, POC's have always been amongst the better of the bunch I agree, but they didn't fit my head shape well. The No-Fear one I ended up with ticked all my boxes and I was prepared to spend upto around £150 at the time. What I did notice was that many of those around £60-£80 were poorly constructed and I reckon that you would lose the ear tabs (I like my ears covered) in about the first 3 uses. Those I've seen in Lidl/Aldi have always been better constructed inside than many others that I've seen.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

Adults suffer head injuries most frequently due to falls, motor vehicle crashes, colliding or being struck by an object, and assaults. Falls and being struck are the most common causes of head injury in children.


So standing on P-Tex (designed to be very slippery), on top of snow (inherently slippery) isn't going to increase the chance of falls?


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 2-03-12 14:35; edited 1 time in total
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Who said that? Puzzled
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Chemmys Smith helmet looks good, she's obviously ripped her jacket though......... must have been some fall............... trust her heads OK? >>>>>>
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
laundryman wrote:
Who said that? Puzzled
Sorry, I think I misunderstood your comment ('I think anyone who doesn't wear a helmet the whole time is nuts'). I thought you were being sarky like earlier in the thread where somone opined that helmets should be worn *all the time* (not just when on the mountain).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
This is an amusing thread...kinda like discussing wearing a helmet while on a motorcycle. If you don't wear one, you've got to be pretty foolish...hope you have good insurance, and if not, don't expect others to pay for your head injuries...
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Plenty of cheap lids here: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=87416
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I'm a bit of a helmet sceptic for reasons that I have given on this board ad nauseam.

However I think the debate should move on a bit if one is looking at preventing yourself getting seriously injured/dying. Last year deaths were said to be at a much higher rate in Austria and overall they do not appear to have decreased in spite of a significant increase in helmet wearing.
If people are serious about reduction in injuries (And the incidence of serious head injuries and death is far lower in skiing than in many other activities) It is surely other behaviours that we should be addressing rather than the eternal debate about helmets which irrespective of the benefits/doubts seems to have been taken up by a large majority of the sking population.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
nearly 7 pages in a couple of days LLLOOOOOOOLLLL

my answer to OP question is..........SOMETIMES Toofy Grin (as in sometimes i wear one, sometimes i dont, depends on many factors, and sometimes just depends on the mood)

i used to smoke on chairlifts too wink
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
headless wrote:
This is an amusing thread...kinda like discussing wearing a helmet while on a motorcycle. If you don't wear one, you've got to be pretty foolish...hope you have good insurance, and if not, don't expect others to pay for your head injuries...


Why (with very rare exceptions) do these "you're an idiot" quotes come from those who advocate helmet wearing?

As I've said ad nauseam on here I make a decision not to wear a helmet skiing because for me the downsides outweigh what I believe to be the risks. From a fair amount of experience and a fair bit more reading I have decided that the likelihood of me injuring my head skiing is very, very small. However I admit that if the worst thing that could happen, happened, then there is a chance that the outcome could be less bad if i was wearing a helmet. The again, there's lots of situations (like skiing at high speed into a tree which seems to kill most of the Americans in the article linked above - unclear as to whether head injury was the sole cause of death though) where I suspect I'd get other serious injuries other than to my head - but I don't see a whole lot of body armour out there.

I do lots of stuff where if the worst thing that could ever happen happened then I'd be in a whole lot of trouble - but then again I suspect so do you. Life is a series of risk management decisions - on the matter of ski helmet wearing my assesment is different to yours - doesn't make either of us an idiot, so please don't try and infer that I am.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Fri 2-03-12 16:26; edited 1 time in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I could have SWORN i got a concencus on helmets for Christmas...T Bar, I get entirely what you're saying about attitude, and the attitude towards risk is the issue - we go up the mountain, we come down, we go over kickers, we go fast, we go off-piste, we go into the trees - all incur their own risks and rewards. It's down to the individual to assess these risks with the best information available to them and mitigate them accordingly, by changing what they do or don't do, whether thats attitude, technique or equipment.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
andy from embsay wrote:


Why (with very rare exceptions) do these "you're an idiot" quotes come from those who advocate helmet wearing?



One of those exceptions, of course, being our very own James the Last.

Not sure how much that's actually true either, but never mind.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I don't think anyone can really argue that banging your head can be bad news, and no matter what the speed a helmet can reduce the damage to a degree.

However I do think that the risk of this actually happening is very small, as the stats a few pages back regarding fatalities seems to back up, and so there is a degree of paranoia around the need to actually wear one unless you're a beginner or particularly risk-taking skier. That said if I did start wearing one I would always have to wear it as I would be paranoid that the time I didn't would be the time I had an accident.

So given that I find them uncomfortable to wear (not helped by having a particularly big head), would have hated wearing it on such a scorchingly warm day as last Saturday, and not believing that the risks are that great, I choose not to wear them. However that's my view and I would never criticise anyone for wearing one, but I do get defensive if someone questions why I'm not wearing one.

I would say in French resorts the uptake is around 40% or so, but that is just a rough observation rather than any scientific survey!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

To add to the Austrian polls mentioned earlier I would say the take up there across all ranges was 90%+ wearing them.

Wow the helmet uptake in Austria has been phenomenal! When I skied in Hochgurgl last year I'd say 20% max were wearing helmets.

.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
xyzpaul,
Quote:

Wow the helmet uptake in Austria has been phenomenal! When I skied in Hochgurgl last year I'd say 20% max were wearing helmets.

May be different in different places but we have been infomally and not very scientifically surveying helmet use going up a chairlift in Ischgl for four years and it was about 75% last year and >80% this year.
I haven't noted the numbers but there was definately a big jump last year.
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There are plenty of studies on helmet wear and head protection..it's not really even worth debating.

If you choose not to wear one, you do at your own risk. You might be a great skier, but what if someone else rails into you from behind? There are other scenarios like this... It's not always an issue of how good you are, but how lucky you are.

andy from embsay, I didn't say 'idiot.'...I said 'foolish'. I was commenting on the decision not to wear one vs. making a personal jab at anyone who doesn't. I have a motorcycle and get in the same discussions with people who prefer to feel the open air...that's great, until their brain is all over the road or they're a vegetable and someone else has to pay the bills for years on end.

There wouldn't be a push for helmets if they didn't do anything positive. With that being said, until they require you to wear one (as they do with motorcycle helmets in many states), it's up to you to manage your risk...

The simplest way of dealing with this topic is simply never to bang your head! Very Happy
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I've genuinely tried to stay out of this thread, other than point people to the huge number of threads that regurgitate the same old arguement.

Well, now I have a reason to join in. And it goes something like this.

7am this morning. Leave house, jump on bike to head off to the gym for an hour. A fairly routine thing here - 4 times a week. Same journey....cross a quiet road, along a cycle path, past the shops, through the park (or round it if it's sodden), along a residential street, over the A4, along another resi street, past the station, onto another B road and to the gym. About 2.5 miles.

So, this morning....its a bit foggy....well actually quite foggy. Much like the rest of the UK, apparently. Flashing lights go on. Grounds a bit damp, so decided to go round park, entailing a cycle down an access road and then onto another residential road.

And I started to think....well, I bought a ski helmet for my 2 weeks a year on the snow last December. Maybe its time to buy a cycle helmet......at the exact moment (I kid not), that a bush jumped out at me...literally, one second there, the next scraaaaape and bounce onto the kerp and WHAM, straight onto the deck. Grazed arm from the bush, grazed elbow on the other side from the tarmac, huge bruise to thigh from the kerb, bruised ribs. You get the picture.

My head was an inch from the kerb too. So close, in fact, that had I been wearing a helmet, I'd probably have an inertia neck injury and severe head bruising.....

So, anyone want to buy a ski helmet - 7 days wear, as good as new, cost €95.....offers considered..... Toofy Grin

Laughing
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headless wrote:
There are plenty of studies on helmet wear and head protection..it's not really even worth debating.

andy from embsay, I didn't say 'idiot.'...I said 'foolish'. I was commenting on the decision not to wear one vs. making a personal jab at anyone who doesn't.

There wouldn't be a push for helmets if they didn't do anything positive. With that being said, until they require you to wear one (as they do with motorcycle helmets in many states), it's up to you to manage your risk...


Silly old me - equating the use of the word foolish with implying someone's an idiot. Can't imagine how that happened. And sorry dude - you did make a jab at people who don't by saying they're "foolish" not to wear a helmet, which was my point - i don't say you're foolish to make a different decision to me.

And as you say there are plenty of studies on ski helmet wear - and I think it's probably proven (not definitively, but near enough for me) that there are some circumstances in which a helmet may improve the outcome (not "save your life" or "stop your brains being spread out" - that's the sort of emotive guff that reduces the credibility of what you're saying), but the risks of a serious head injury in skiing are minuscule. I clearly have a higher tolerance to risk than you - so I make a decision that suits me. You make a decision that suits your more cautious outlook - I suspect because you feel the likelihood of serious head injury is greater than I do, as i guess we'd agree the impact of such a thing is a Bad Thing. As I said, it doesn't make either of us "foolish" (if you prefer) - it just makes us different.

The stats on skiing deaths/serious injuries are interesting though, eh? No measurable reduction in head injuries or deaths despite increases in helmet wearing - why d'you think that is? From what i can remember road deaths fell significantly when seat belts became compulsory.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 2-03-12 19:35; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
andy from embsay,
Quote:

From what i can remember road deaths fell significantly when seat belts became compulsory.

I read somewhere and I am not sure if it is true or apocryphal that although deaths of vehicle occupants fell pedestrain deaths went up as drivers felt safer and drove faster.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I can't remember either - but I seem to remember Jimmy Saville being a major contribution to road safety (or was that some tyres?).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Chasseur wrote:
I've genuinely tried to stay out of this thread, other than point people to the huge number of threads that regurgitate the same old arguement.

Well, now I have a reason to join in. And it goes something like this.

7am this morning. Leave house, jump on bike to head off to the gym for an hour. A fairly routine thing here - 4 times a week. Same journey....cross a quiet road, along a cycle path, past the shops, through the park (or round it if it's sodden), along a residential street, over the A4, along another resi street, past the station, onto another B road and to the gym. About 2.5 miles.

So, this morning....its a bit foggy....well actually quite foggy. Much like the rest of the UK, apparently. Flashing lights go on. Grounds a bit damp, so decided to go round park, entailing a cycle down an access road and then onto another residential road.

And I started to think....well, I bought a ski helmet for my 2 weeks a year on the snow last December. Maybe its time to buy a cycle helmet......at the exact moment (I kid not), that a bush jumped out at me...literally, one second there, the next scraaaaape and bounce onto the kerp and WHAM, straight onto the deck. Grazed arm from the bush, grazed elbow on the other side from the tarmac, huge bruise to thigh from the kerb, bruised ribs. You get the picture.

My head was an inch from the kerb too. So close, in fact, that had I been wearing a helmet, I'd probably have an inertia neck injury and severe head bruising.....

So, anyone want to buy a ski helmet - 7 days wear, as good as new, cost €95.....offers considered..... Toofy Grin

Laughing


So you came so close to hitting your head on the kerb (an extra pedal push might have been the difference) that it persuaded you that a helmet is a bad idea, that's so counter intuitive it's almost a "James the Last".

Sorry to hear about your fall, hope it doesn't hurt too much.
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It would explain the apparent higher incidence of head bumping amongst helmet wearers, actually - you're increasing the circumference of your bonce quite significantly ( particularly with cycling helmets) that it's entirely feasible that you'll hit your head in circumstances when you otherwise wouldn't.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Chasseur, loving your work... Wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
T Bar wrote:
I'm a bit of a helmet sceptic for reasons that I have given on this board ad nauseam.

However I think the debate should move on a bit if one is looking at preventing yourself getting seriously injured/dying. Last year deaths were said to be at a much higher rate in Austria and overall they do not appear to have decreased in spite of a significant increase in helmet wearing.
If people are serious about reduction in injuries (And the incidence of serious head injuries and death is far lower in skiing than in many other activities) It is surely other behaviours that we should be addressing rather than the eternal debate about helmets which irrespective of the benefits/doubts seems to have been taken up by a large majority of the sking population.


Given that the largest demographic of skiing/boarding fatalities are males in the 18-43 age group, this being the group that historically have been the most reticent to wear helmets (and also includes the group most likely to crash their car), it's hardly surprising there's been not much change in the statistics regarding fatalities.

Statistics in and of themselves don't have much value, you have to look a bit deeper to try and understand them.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Are you sure on that, TotallyBoard? From my observation i'd say the 18-43 group are, after kids, amongst the most likely to wear lids, having been brought up wearing them. It's old crusties like me that wear woolly hats, isn't it?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Evidence worth reading for the helmet flat earthers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831705/pdf/1820333.pdf


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 2-03-12 21:17; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
andy from embsay wrote:
Are you sure on that, TotallyBoard? From my observation i'd say the 18-43 group are, after kids, amongst the most likely to wear lids, having been brought up wearing them. It's old crusties like me that wear woolly hats, isn't it?


Skiers and snowboarders aged 18 to 24 have traditionally represented the lowest percentage of helmet use among all age groups

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/press/facts-ski-snbd-safety.asp
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Interesting, cheers. I'd have said (from limited, Eurocentric observation) that the overall % is higher and the group least likely to wear a helmet are blokes in their 40's - but you can't argue with the scale of that study. It does also back up the observation that you're still pretty unlikely to bang your head skiing, and that increasing helmet use hasn't reduced serious head injury or death.

I'll stick to my bobble hat (or in extremis, the safest hat known to man, the Lowe Alpine Moutain Cap).
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Chasseur, that's a ridiculous story...you justify not wearing a helmet because you came an inch or two from hitting your head open and had you been wearing a helmet, it would have hit the curb? What happens next time when you're not an inch away, don't have a helmet on, and do hit the curb?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Increasing helmet use is associated with decreased head injury.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882460/?tool=pubmed

Ruedl will I guess shortly publish the effect of mandatory helmet use in children under 15 in Austria from 2009-10.
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TotallyBoard,
Quote:

Given that the largest demographic of skiing/boarding fatalities are males in the 18-43 age group, this being the group that historically have been the most reticent to wear helmets (and also includes the group most likely to crash their car), it's hardly surprising there's been not much change in the statistics regarding fatalities.

Statistics in and of themselves don't have much value, you have to look a bit deeper to try and understand them.


I have looked at the statistics and tried to understand them. Two things the statistics refer to America looking at European wearers I would guess it is different .

Also the the wearing of helmets even amongst the demographic group you have quoted has more than doubled since 2002/3 whereas the mortality has remained unchanged.
This suggests if you are looking to alter mortality there are rather more important factors than wearing helmets.

As you are keen to make the comparison with car drivers I have previously calculated that my odds as a standard car driver of dying is over ten times that of skiing, it would make rather more sense for me to wear a helmet in my car than on the slopes.

ed123, Your link does not work for me.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
headless wrote:
Chasseur, that's a ridiculous story...you justify not wearing a helmet because you came an inch or two from hitting your head open and had you been wearing a helmet, it would have hit the curb? What happens next time when you're not an inch away, don't have a helmet on, and do hit the curb?


Why is it any more ridiculous than saying "my helmet broke, therefore i would have been dead had i not been wearing it"?

They're both pretty daft!
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headless wrote:
Chasseur, that's a ridiculous story...you justify not wearing a helmet because you came an inch or two from hitting your head open and had you been wearing a helmet, it would have hit the curb? What happens next time when you're not an inch away, don't have a helmet on, and do hit the curb?


Laughing ........ Laughing Laughing Laughing ........ Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

rolling eyes
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Have to say I wish I'd had kevlar sleeves and shorts and perhaps some of those skateboard elbow pads....
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
headless, no helmet required for you I guess wink
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ed123 wrote:
Increasing helmet use is associated with decreased head injury.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882460/?tool=pubmed

Ruedl will I guess shortly publish the effect of mandatory helmet use in children under 15 in Austria from 2009-10.


New linky worky

They do not say that increasing helmet use is assocaited with decreased head injury they compare groups of skiers with and without helmets and state that the group withoutthe helmets has a lower incidence of head injuries. Not that the mnumber of head injuries is decreasing with increasing helmet use.

I have not seen Ruedels study but much of the Canadian Metanalysis was based on studies with very dubious end points.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
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The really weird thing is that all the arguments against wearing a helmet are amplified many fold for transceivers which if actually needed to find a victim are usually corpse retrieval devices.

But there are almost no proponents of 'transceivers don't bother with them'.

I wonder why? Puzzled
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