 Poster: A snowHead
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I have given up being concerned about this - I'm just sitting back and watching Darwin in action.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Fifespud, ah. Thanks. Glad there's a SH with time to do that - so do tell us - how many skiers without helmets you have seen suffering brain damage or worse?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, they all have brain damage...
... otherwise they'd be wearing a helmet....
*runs back under bridge*
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, I thought anecdotal evidence didn't count?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yet another Helmet thread goes to 5 pages, largely propelled by James the Last to see sense 
Thing is, it is blatantly obvious that having some head protection will protect against some injuries to some degree some of the time. Which is all the 'pro' crowd are saying. To call Helmets 'completely useless' is to say that they offer no protection at all against any injury ever, which is transparently bollux, even a beanie hat offers SOME protection (against for example being scratched by a twig  )
So we are all free to spend our money how we choose, and some of us choose to spend it on head protection.
Case 1 - If we are 'right' in our choice, we get some benefit, no-one else suffers and the world is a happier place.
Case 2 - If we are wrong, we only THINK we get some benefit, but we are still happy in our delusion, and still no-one else suffers and the world is still a happier place.
(Apart from James who is frothing at the mouth at our refusal to accept his arguments, and our having the temerity to 'waste' our money on helmet wearing )
'til next time.....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
achilles, they all have brain damage...
... otherwise they'd be wearing a helmet....
*runs back under bridge* |
Oi. I am already under there. It's getting a bit crowded.
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Sitting comfortably at your desk? Take a stapler, get your nearest workmate to whack you as hard as they can on the head with it. Do the same tomorrow, with helmet, and then report back as to which was the better experience (masochists excepted)
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 2-03-12 11:08; edited 1 time in total
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achilles, Shove over! Make room for another!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"You are old, Father Stoat," the young snowHead said,
"And your legs are beinning to wobble,
I see you've a helmet paerched top of your head,
Do you think that without it you'd hobble?"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Axsman, nope - they are just very very tough up north....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
FWIW, I'm sure a cycling helmet is more use than a skiing helmet, simply because - in my experience - bike crashes tend to happen faster than skiing crashes, leaving little or no chance to take evasive action. Skiing crashes tend to be relatively leisurely affairs, when you get plenty of warning you're about to hit the deck, giving time to assume a protective position for landing. With road bike crashes, you've landed on your head - if that's what fate has in store for you - before you've even realised you're going down.
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That's my experience too.
Plus of course the landing is generally harder and more abrasive!
I still wear a ski helmet in part because I don't see any downside - find them comfortable and I like skiing in goggles anyway. Bike helmets do have a real disadvantage - cycling is much more aerobically demanding than downhill skiing so you get hotter. I still wear a cycling helmet because I value the protection.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| James the Last wrote: |
| TotallyBoard wrote: |
I think it says it all that if you had to choose how to have my accident (which was very scary not knowing if I'd caused permenant damage btw), that you would purposefully choose to do it without a lid. Pure comedy gold fella, I take my helmet off to you. |
My decision is entirely logical.
1. I know that today I am going to have exactly the same accident as you had.
2. My belief from the evidence I have is that the helmet you wore made no difference to the outcome you had from your accident.
The only logical conclusion is that wearing a helmet is going to make no difference. So why would I wear a helmet.
It's "pure comedy gold fella" (sic) to suggest that the logical conclusion is that I should wear a helmet. Your conclusion that I should wear a helmet is not the correct conclusion from the evidence that has been presented to me; it's the complete opposite. It is purely a gut reaction based on witchdoctory, rather than an evaluation of the facts. |
Yet more gash I'm afraid. The fact that you can make these claims without even seeing the helmet makes your claims spurious at best (more like borderline insane imo).
So if you knew that you were going to have the same crash as me, knocking yourself sparkout, losing your memory for 4 hours, crushing the foam inner of the helmet and cracking the outside, you would prefer to do it without the helmet and have your skull subjected to the existing forces plus any that were obviously expelled in the crushing and cracking of the helmet (or do you think that this happened with no force?). It is quite possible that the crack was caused by a rock, I don't know and didn't really have my wits about me when I woke up.
Obviously winning this argument is more important to you than the use of logic, common sense and not looking like a pillock. Good luck to you, I'm done. Oh and I think your posts will have done more than mine to persuade anyone contemplating helmet use to protect their heads.
In all my years on the interweb never have I seen someone speak with such authority, when their posts show a complete disregard for the facts. You sir are a fool
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Poster: A snowHead
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Reading through this thread has reminded me of one of my favourite quotations. I'll leave it up to the readers to think who I might be offering this advice up for, but it's probably fairly obvious to most...
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| It is better to say nothing and appear stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skisimon wrote: |
Reading through this thread has reminded me of one of my favourite quotations. I'll leave it up to the readers to think who I might be offering this advice up for, but it's probably fairly obvious to most...
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| It is better to say nothing and appear stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. |
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Or "Don't argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Bike helmets do have a real disadvantage - cycling is much more aerobically demanding than downhill skiing so you get hotter. |
I find that cursing a hot head takes my mind off cursing my tired legs when climbing! I had to take my "lid" off last summer, when climbing the Grosse Scheidegge. It's at the limit of my climbing capabilities and with temperatures into the high 20s, and a sustained pitch with a gradient in the mid teens, it was either "de-lid" or explode.
I was photoed at the top by my mate in my lidless condition and got into serious bother from my kids when they saw the photo!!
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Just having a quick 5 minute scout and found 2 really interesting sites on this that some may/may not want to read.
First one is "An analysis of head injuries among skiers and snowboarders" from the "National Center for Biotechnology Information" that can be found here (It's only an abstract, no James not a painting) -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12394869?dopt=Abstract
Second one here -> http://www.telemarktips.com/Helmets.html which tries to disprove the 10-12mph 'myth'. There is also a really good section on 'To Wear a Helmet or Not... Making an Informed Choice'. I love the fact that it ends with **You have the information you need to make an informed decision. It's your call, now go do what works best for you, and please, let others make their own call as well. Have fun out there!**
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| TotallyBoard wrote: |
| Or "Don't argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience" |
Indeed. A mantra to live by I always find. It's one of the reasons I stood down from a Union board, it was wholly inhabited with the more experienced... (Maybe straying a little close to politics now, so I shall hastily retreat).
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Isn't there a simple to answer to this?
If you want to wear a helmet then wear one, and if you don't want to wear one then........well........wait for it..............................................don't!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not sure what I've learnt about helmets from reading these 5 fabulous pages, but I think I'm learning a lot about certain snowheads. I've come to the conclusion that one amongst us stands out as a shining example of moronity, the likes of which we may never see again .... thank you for the comedy, you are truly a helmet !
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Megamum, Now don't you go getting all logical on us. James the stroppiest will throw another hissy fit!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beeryletcher, are the 5 pages worth reading for comedy value?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum having just done it I can categorically state that the answer is "NO".
But feel free to disagree - just say that you found it funny and that research shows that some other people found it funny and we can run another 5 pages on the scientific proof of comedy 
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I didn't realise that motorcycle helmets are only required to survive a 3m drop (17mph) direct impact. Are they useless too then?
All of the testing is carried out by dropping directly on to a solid metal anvil, don't know about anyone else but I've never seen one of those on any of the pistes I've ever ridden. Surely most falls are going to be at less of an angle than direct impact and on to something less substantial than a solid metal anvil.
I was getting the impression that the 10-14mph figure was a maximum speed the helmet would be useful for, I guess that it could theoretically be substantially higher if you take in to account angle of impact, softness of snow and any slowing of speed due to torso possibly hitting first.
You learn something every day huh?
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You know it makes sense.
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Wow. There is some genuine hilarity here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TotallyBoard wrote: |
I was getting the impression that the 10-14mph figure was a maximum speed the helmet would be useful for |
That has been covered earlier in this very thread:
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
CEN 1077 is the cause of pretty much every issue with helmets. It's the basic safty standard to pass for a rating sticker. Why do you have to throw the helmet away after 1 impact? Because the test only tests the helmet once. Why does it only work up to 12mph? because thats the speed it'll hit the floor at from the 1.5m static drop test.
CEN1077 sets out the minimum performance of a helmet, NOT the maximum, NOR does every manufacturer build only to just pass CEN1077. |
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Poster: A snowHead
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bobmcstuff, yeah kinda but I was wondering if a helmet that just passes (i.e. would crack at 15mph in the test say), could very well perform to a higher speed than that 15mph in the real world.
A direct impact at 14mph in to snow is less demanding than a 14mph impact on to a solid metal anvil. I would expect that as the angle away from head on increases the impact would be less and so the speed that it would protect to would increase.
Given that take up of helmets by young males has historically been the lowest I wonder if this skews the results on 'significant decreases in fatalities', this demographic is the most likely to crash their cars due to driving too quickly. I wonder if it is the same on snow, i.e. that they are the most likely to be involved in fatalities in snowsports. Time for a google 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, just because I'm the only person who says it's not funny doesn't mean I'm not right and you are all wrong. I refer you to any of the above posts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| Most fatalities occurred to experienced males between the ages of 18 to 43. |
Yup not exactly the same demographic as the 'most likely to crash their car' but it is a superset of it.
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| Helmet utilization does not appear to affect fatality incidence, but it does shift primary cause of death patterns, from mostly head injuries for those not using a helmet to mostly chest and torso for those wearing a helmet. |
So far from being useless, helmets appear to do a very good job of protecting the head, such a good job that the people with helmets on primary cause of death wasn't head injuries as it was for the non-helmet wearers. So in the rare instance that the blow that could cause death was only to the head a helmet would save a life (I think).
http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/JAI13893.htm
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Tiger2, Yes, but don't forget that there is your version of being right and my version of being right and the way I view the statistics may well mean that your view of rightness is wrong and that my view of the statistics may mean that my version of right is really right regardless of what the statistics show 
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Statistics, pah!.......have read all the above with interest, however the fact remains that on 3 occasions when I was doing significantly more than 15mph a helmet I believe has saved my life, or at worst significantly improved the chances of having a quality of one!! OK, maybe I might have been "in a bad way" rather than having saved my life, who knows but the fact remains that I will always where one for the sake of £100-150. If someones stupid enough to not wear one because the statistics show otherwise well good luck to them.
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Markymark29, I mean it's not rocket science is it? You wear protective headgear to er, protect your head right? and heads that get bashed while wearing protective headgear benefit from some degree of protection. Anyone who can't see this needs their head examining
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think this bit is particularly interesting:
| http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/helmet wrote: |
Rental helmets
We all know that rental gear tends to get abused, and rental helmets are probably no different. Leaving aside issues such as availability of appropriate sizes and helmet cleaning, what about the potential damage done to helmets by repeated rental use? Perhaps, if a helmet is dropped or knocked repeatedly, this may reduce the effectiveness of the helmet. The situation could of course be worse if the helmet was involved in an impact on the slopes but the user does not report it to the rental store. Its not an issue if the damage is obvious to the naked eye, but this may not be the case.
Thankfully, another study from ISSS 2011 attempted to examine this issue. Irv Scher and colleagues took 6 helmets that met current standards. Half of them were subjected to "pre-conditioning" whereas the others were left untouched as "new" helmets. The preconditioned helmets were dropped 30 times onto asphalt from a height of 1m, which is arguably more abuse than your avergae rental lid will endure. Both groups of helmets were then tested to ASTM standards. The results showed that there was no significant difference between the preconditioned and new helmets despite the preconditioned group having visible evidence of minor damage. Based on these results, they concluded that "average" wear and tear may not significantly reduce the effectiveness of rental helmets.
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Maybe I shouldn't feel quite so paranoid about not replacing my lid after dropping it!
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With a serious hat on for a moment - there is no need to even shell out £100+ on a lid. I ski quite happily in an £18 helmet from Sports Direct that fits best out of any I've ever tried on elsewhere, carries the appropriate CE marks and has a better build quality and subsequent expected longevity out of many others that I've seen (I have literally tried on hundreds). Lidls and Aldi's frequently sell cut price helmets meeting the same standards and on many mail order that many SH ski happily in, and it is very easy to buy 'brand-name' lids at around the £40-£50 mark. I don't think price can be cited as a reason for making the decision one way or another.
To add to the Austrian polls mentioned earlier I would say the take up there across all ranges was 90%+ wearing them.
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FAQ
's Gold. 