 Poster: A snowHead
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So Ski hosts services that many companies seem to be having now in france. What does anyone think of this?
Untrained lads and lasses taking groups of skiers out and around on the mountain and being paid for it. I had the unfortunate time of witnessing how easy things can go wrong with these. The 1st instance was hearing a mate was having a little bit of a shocker whilst out in a group with a ski host. So i made the effort to go along for a short while n see what was going on.
Well it seems the ski Host don't actually care if they lose anyone out of there group along the way and if you have an accident they will not go back for you or wait.
Luckily for my friend i care and made him leave the mountain as his legs were shot and was not just risking himself but the amount of times he was falling over was risking other people.
The next day i wish i had been with my friends as my friends mother had a fall and broke her leg in four places. Did the ski host stop and wait or send anyone back round to check for the lost bodies. No!!!
I really do find this service disgracefull. For someone to go and teach in france it costs 10's of thousands of pounds and many years of hard work and yet these kids can now come and take people round the mountain with no training experience and are not in my eyes very good skiers. They don't even know how to look after a group on a mountain. I know they say to there groups they can't teach them or take off piste but c'mon grrrrrr at least look after your group.
The only thing i found slightly amusing on the last night was when i was told that the ski host have to wear there own jackets now as something had been said by the french to the resort manager. So now its fine is it take off your company jacket but still carry on risking and injuring skiiers.
Yes the company was ski olympic btw.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sounds like you got really unlucky with the host to me!! Did anyone complain?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've only ever skied with Mark Warner hosts and they were absolutely fine. There was an exchange of telephone numbers amongst the group, and the hosts always waited for stragglers. I have no experience, luckily, of how they would have coped in the event of an injury. Whether or not they are good skiers is immaterial, imv, if all they are doing is skiing with people on piste: they aren't instructors and it's up to the guests to decide whether their own skiing is good enough for the group - much the same as if they were just skiing with a bunch of friends.
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woody911, doesn't sound like a great experience, but you're wrong to tar all ski hosts with the same brush. The ones I've used have all been excellent, for a bit of balance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| woody911 wrote: |
Luckily for my friend i care and made him leave the mountain as his legs were shot and was not just risking himself but the amount of times he was falling over was risking other people. |
Sounds as though your friend is a liability to himself and others on the mountain and should never have put the ski host in the position of having dead weight in the group. Overestimating your own abilities, and then putting others in a difficult position on a mountain is at best silly and at worst irresponsible.
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| The next day i wish i had been with my friends as my friends mother had a fall and broke her leg in four places. Did the ski host stop and wait or send anyone back round to check for the lost bodies. No!!! |
Maybe not very clever, but if you're leading the way at the front of a group it's pretty difficult to get back up a mountain... In a straightforward lesson exactly the same thing could happen, and by the time the instructor has waited fifteen minutes for the missing skier to reappear, and then gone down to the bottom and round again the pisteurs will probably have the victim off the mountain already.
You cannot blame the ski host for either of the above, get over yourself.
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My experience chimes with that of Pedantica and Dr John. A useful service, with competent guides who could ski well and looked after people sensibly. I think you are mistaken, woody911, in thinking that this kind of service is something rather new. It's not - in fact it was probably more common 20 years ago because, as you have noted, the French authorities can be a bit sensitive about it.
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I've had a lot of experience of Ski Olympic ski hosting on several occasions. Your experience couldn't be further from mine.
Honestly, your post reads like someone who is either trying to find an angle to blame someone else for not being in control of your own skiing, or looking to ruin a service that many people value a great deal on the mountain.
Ultimately, the host should stop regularly, make sure everyone is together where possible, and in the event of injury do the same thing that the rest of us would do in the same position - stop and assist where possible, raise the alarm and let the rescue services step in.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Honestly, your post reads like someone who is either trying to find an angle to blame someone else for not being in control of your own skiing, or looking to ruin a service that many people value a great deal on the mountain.
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or maybe he's just cross because his friends ended up with a cr@p host? We werent there so lets not be so quick to judge. Im sure Ski Olympic, however wonderful they might be, arent above landing themselves with a rotten apple. Hopefully the events have been conveyed to Ski Olympic so they can investigate the situation.
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Would someone acting as a ski-host have the, for want fo a better word, "authority" to ask someone to leave their group anyway? Agree that a good host should be keeping the group together and try to keep line-of-sight one everyone as much as possible though, and know what to do in an emergency, but that goes for anyone skiing/riding in a group.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This is obviously a bad experience, but I certainly have not come across anything like this when I have joined Guding services (with Le Ski and with Esprit). At some times it feels like you are on a school trip as the guides were constantly making head counts. Yes, the guide was sometimes at the front but they would always stop and wait for everyone before setting off again and on some occasions there have been 2 guides so one would be at the front and one would sweep the back.
From the sounds of it too, your friend was not at the level of the group - was he confident on reds? And did they have enough self knowledge to say "I am not keeping up; I am being a danger; I am ruining the fun for others"? Because when I join a group if I feel later on in the day that my legs have had enough then I find out how I can get home and then I leave (and leave other half with the group) so as not to affect the enjoyment of the others in my group.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Shimmy Alcott, the ski hosts have no responsibility whatsoever, it's all done under clear caveats that you're responsible for yourself. That said, they're all after tips so they will (in most cases) go out of their way to make sure everyone in the group is happy. I was chatting to the MW host a couple of years ago about what happend if someone has placed themselves in the wrong group. He said it doesn't happen very often, but he gently suggests that they might think about joining a slower group, and once he suggested that a guest get some lessons.
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Shimmy Alcott, Richard_Sideways,
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Agree that a good host should be keeping the group together and try to keep line-of-sight one everyone as much as possible though, and know what to do in an emergency, but that goes for anyone skiing/riding in a group.
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Indeed.
CaurnieBred,
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enough self knowledge to say "I am not keeping up; I am being a danger; I am ruining the fun for others"? Because when I join a group if I feel later on in the day that my legs have had enough then I find out how I can get home and then I leave
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Me too. That self-knowledge is really important if you're skiing with other people in an informal arrangement, with or without a 'host'.
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You know it makes sense.
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Last time I skied with a ski host was with the Crystal one at Wengen a couple of years ago. First class, I thought.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK, from the other side..... when I was "Skiing with Guests" I did feel as thought it was my responsibility to ensure that they were all OK..... to begin with the first hour was spent eyeing them up and working out what they would enjoy and be safe doing.
As for the actual guiding bit.... I alwasy felt that just becuase I was effectively guiding didn't mean I had to be at the front... there would be several regroup points and often.. at the point we would wait for everyone to not only catch up, but recover (if needed) and generally faff around... then when everyone was ready I would describe to them the next section.... if there were more advanced skiers I would let them know how they might make the run "more interesting" and if there were not so advanced skiers how they might make the next section easier........ I would then generally set them all off and watch them go........ when the less advanced of the group were out of sight I would set off and sweep up....... staying with/behind the less advanced until they were in sight of the next rendezvous point and then I would go and have a little fun on my way to the point..... this way the less able were pretty much always in my sight (if I looked), the more able were able to have some "fun" and so was I!
If there were an incident then I would know where they were and they weren't a millon miles away... yes it's a pita walking up the piste to offer assistance but I always felt in skiing with guests some weeks would be great and others painful!!
SPeaking to many of the other people doing the same as me, most did what I did.... (but not all)
Sounds like the OP had a bad experience of a "guide" who was more interested in their ownn enjoyment than their guests.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've been on the Neilson ski guiding day on a previous holiday and they were excellent - I'm not a very fast skier, so tended to be towards the back of the group, but they always made sure they had everyone together, and if people wanted to break off part way through the day, they knew who they should still have with them!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the OP's expectations of ski hosts was probably too high - they don't generally have the skills or authority to look after people, it's just skiing with an acquaintance who knows the resort better than you.
Incidentally, I've never really understood why ski-hosting is "a service that many people value a great deal on the mountain".
Actually, I do see the point if you would otherwise be skiing on your own. That aside, how hard is it to
a) read a piste map
b) ask people for a couple of recommendations for places to ski / places to eat.
I think I've tried ski-hosting three times and always left after a couple of hours. Adds nothing to the ski experience except more waiting around.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've found huge variability in "ski guides" including within the companies listed. The majority have been good and as stated earlier are keen for tips so aren't likely to pee people off.
Others have been keener to ski what interests them and leave slower members of the party behind (this years phoned their boss to ask if it was ok - I believe they got a firm no). One indepentant chalet guide was quite happy to take out 10 people with no kit off piste, everyone enjoyed it but knowing a bit more now I'm a tad surprised!
Last year one of the ski guides had only skied for one week before guiding, now that was a crash course 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 13-02-12 17:40; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've skied with Ski Olympic and their ski hosts many times and found them to be amongst the best I've been with. Always competent and watchful skiers. Yes, they like all hosts occasionally dash off but will always make sure everybody's there (that said have lost the odd person). Some people do seem to want to ski with hosts when they are not of the standard of the group and this can cause tension but most hosts do have means of dealing with it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've used ski host services on numerous occasions - usually when I've been skiing alone in an unfamiliar resort. I'd expect the same level of support as you would typically get when skiing with a group of friends i.e. for the host to have the courtesy to wait for me and to raise the alarm if I hurt myself or vanished unexpectedly. If I wasn't up to the level of the group and was obviously struggling then I'd expect to be politely dropped off somewhere safe.
It sounds like the hosts the OP is describing are not doing this kind of very basic stuff so I can understand the complaint. But all the hosts I've encountered over the years have been very good and provide a useful service for anyone who simply wants to be shown around the resort pistes without the cost of ski lessons or guiding. At my regular resort in Canada they run a free voluntary ski hosting service (mostly retired locals) who are excellent. I still sometimes ski with them when I'm on my own just for a bit of company.
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Ski hosting is fraught with problems based around non-homogenenous make-up of group which can be accelerated by inexperienced hosts. Hosts should be prepared to tell people to toddle off if they're holding back the group, equally they should be brave enough to tell better group members that they better be prepared for hanging around if they want to ski with the group and not try to push the pace. This needs a certain amount of maturity and judgement IMO to be done without hurting anyone's feelings. The North American model where it is usually retired locals (employed on a work for pass basis) seem to do it pretty well, aided usually by the fact that they are great skiers more than capable of putting tourist hotshots in their place.
It's not an easy job shepherding a bunch of independent adults who by definition don't know the area and might want to hoon around or have turned off their brains because someone else is notionally taking routeplanning authority.
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The last couple times I used ski hosting the experince was actually good fun. OK the hosts did not know the way arround the resort (Tignes and La Plagne) and we had to guide them, but they were excellent company, which is what it is really about. They are not guides or instructors and their task is really to just to get a party of similar skiers together and have a good time.
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My best ever day of skiing was with a TO guide from a (now defuct) company called Tracer. He knocked on our door and persuaded us to go out skiing on what appeared to be another horrible white out day. As the gondola poked through the low cloud we stared in disbelief at the glorious untracked powder, and the perfect blue sky. He also lifted a rope and took us down a closed piste, and we followed like lambs. When I look back at his irresponsibility it makes me shudder, but we did have the best day and I loved every minute.
TO guides/hosts/whatever are a wonderful aid to an enjoyable ski holiday, and long may they continue, but you have to understand the risks and not expect too much. If you want more then pay for an instructor/guide.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jedster:
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That aside, how hard is it to
a) read a piste map
b) ask people for a couple of recommendations for places to ski / places to eat.
I think I've tried ski-hosting three times and always left after a couple of hours. Adds nothing to the ski experience except more waiting around.
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It depends what you want from a holiday though. On our first couple of days in a new resort it is nice to not have to worry about pulling the piste map out all the time (and husband realised this year that, given the scale of the piste map for Selva, he would also need to be pulling out his reading glasses). I am perfectly capable of reading the map too but sometimes I don't want to (and why should I get cold hands when I (usually) have a willing husband to do it for me!).
For us it is also the social side of the guiding - getting to meet other people and chatting. Also, as husband is a much more confident skier than me it meant he got to have a day burning pistes with the faster group whilst I happily pootled along with the slower group. We then usually have a couple of days by ourselves but this year we actually ended up skiing with others we met in the guiding group which meant he got more skiing out of me (as I didn't wimp out after lunch as I can be prone to doing!).
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| jellylegs wrote: |
My best ever day of skiing was with a TO guide from a (now defuct) company called Tracer. He knocked on our door and persuaded us to go out skiing on what appeared to be another horrible white out day. As the gondola poked through the low cloud we stared in disbelief at the glorious untracked powder, and the perfect blue sky. He also lifted a rope and took us down a closed piste, and we followed like lambs. When I look back at his irresponsibility it makes me shudder, but we did have the best day and I loved every minute.
TO guides/hosts/whatever are a wonderful aid to an enjoyable ski holiday, and long may they continue, but you have to understand the risks and not expect too much. If you want more then pay for an instructor/guide. |
This is one of the dangers I see with "ski hosts" calling themselves "guides". I'd expect many would follow but as you say it was irresponsible. Glad it worked out OK but it could have been "lambs to the slaughter".
http://www.ivbv.info/en/
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ours got told they couldn't take guests down anything harder than a red and under no circumstances to take people off piste. I figured that was fairly standard?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Back in the day when I did a bit of ski guiding whilst working a season for a TO, there was a BASI qualification (I seem to remember it was called BASI 4?) for ski guiding. Not an instruction qualification by any stretch but it covered mountain safety, looking after a group, dealing with incidents and I found it invaluable training. We didn't have mobile phones in those days either.
Generally speaking we would have two ski hosts with a group. One leading from the front, giving directions and stopping at pre-agreed meeting points and one at the back to 'collect' everyone.
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Apparently there is a ski host/'guide' service that .......
- Communications with 'customers' very poorly and instructions are often grunted
- Often leaves slower/older people behind without waiting
- Gets senior members of the group to pay for everything all day
- Older members are also shouted at and embarrassed in public (esp if they start dancing during Apres Ski)
- The 'leader' then makes a big scene telling the members how uncool they all are and then storms off in a huff
....... it's for parents who have gone skiing without the kids but are missing their teenage children. 
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You know it makes sense.
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I used to be a ski host and through my Brit based company we received lots of training from local ski schools and British Association of Ski Patrollers as well as a first aid on the mountain course.
Had great fun skiing with clients and I think some of them enjoyed it too ; )
Well I say I had great fun, it was really poo-poo when there was a pow day... on those occasions we may have skied the group hard so they often left at lunch!?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Glad it worked out OK but it could have been "lambs to the slaughter". |
Absolutely right, and I was too naive to realise the risks. I suppose you live and learn, or die trying!
I'd like to see more TO guiding, but strictly on-piste. It's a shame that the resorts don't like TO guides because, for me, they are an important part of the enjoyment.
I'm still not sure that I'm completely comfortable with the idea of SCGB reps taking clients off-piste. Sure they're usually better trained, but the majority of the clients aren't carrying avi kit.
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB,
Sounds familiar!!!! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ski Hosts good bad or just dangerous?
or should that read
People good bad or just dangerous?
As in all things in life some people do their job professionally and some don't.
I could add lots here but there is no point as I find most arm chair experts have it covered  and I'm to busy ski hosting.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've not used ski olympics services but have used various others, Neilson, the welcome hosts at a couple of Canadian resorts etc.. I've happily had the opposite exp to you. I've always understood it to be your responsibility to be honest about the standard of your own skiing so you don't endanger anyone and so that you get the most out of your time, personally that means I'm generally quite competant on reds but can get freaked out on really wide open slopes (I'm deaf on 1 side and people bombing past me with no warning throws me off) was your mate really honest with himself/the guide? Maybe I'm over simplifying things but why on earth would 1 of your group choose to ski with the same guy the next day if you had already decided he did not care or have the exp to lead a group? Makes no sense to me!
I hope this does not put your friends/family off this wonderful sport but I do think your exp underlines the need to pay for tuition where it's needed, honesty when you assess your ability and the right to exercise common sense if you believe something to be dangerous or out of your league.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, bl00dy hell - thats a bit reckless, they've not got helmets on
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Mosha Marc, you're lucky to be alive!
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Dwarf Vader,
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most arm chair experts have it covered
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I think that most of the people who've contributed to the thread are punters who've skied with ski hosts, and therefore reasonably well placed to opine. I'm not sure that, in this situation, a real expert exists at all - it's a very loose arrangement, for the most part.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Surely, if you need help, supervision, support etc when skiing, then you should be in ski school and not being shown around the resort by someone who makes it clear they are not instructors and have no duty of care for you.
I remember being with a guided group at Kitzbuhel once when a father and son on their second ski trip were clearly not up to it and the guide just left them to it. Last seen, the father was beating the child with a ski pole. Glad to get away!
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FAQ
