 Poster: A snowHead
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The first thing I wantto say is never work for this company.
Now Im looking for some advice; head office has decided to cancel every member of staffs lift passes in the hotel I work for one week, due to 'negative feedback'. Is this legal? There is no mention of their ability to do this in our contracts. Anyone? If they didnt owe me 2 months wages and a bond I would be walking out the door.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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borntoski, it kind of doesn't matter if it is legal or not because the maximum damage is the price of a weeks lift pass (you can always skin up, do you good  ). If they've genuinly had negative feedback they are clearly taking steps to make everyone up their game on behalf of the paying customer. Might cause a morale issue but, knowing that, things must have got bad from their point of view.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How will they do that? Confiscate your passes for a week?
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Sounds like a good way to ensure staff up their game by walking out entirely. Let's face it the skiing is the only reason to accept TO Ts and Cs of employment. Surely better HR to have a meeting explaining that performance wasn't up to scratch and the next sanction would be to withdraw lift passes?
Know I wouldn't be wanting to holiday with a TO where the staff's only entertainment was now drinking and shagging.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
...
Know I wouldn't be wanting to holiday with a TO where the staff's only entertainment was now drinking and shagging. |
+1
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| fatbob wrote: |
Sounds like a good way to ensure staff up their game by walking out entirely. Let's face it the skiing is the only reason to accept TO Ts and Cs of employment. Surely better HR to have a meeting explaining that performance wasn't up to scratch and the next sanction would be to withdraw lift passes?
Know I wouldn't be wanting to holiday with a TO where the staff's only entertainment was now drinking and shagging. |
+1
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cran
cran
Guest
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| borntoski, it kind of doesn't matter if it is legal or not because the maximum damage is the price of a weeks lift pass |
Not really, a season pass only costs the same as 2 weeks ski pass... and the cost of buying your own for a week is quite high.
Is a bit harsh considering the chances of things improving having done this are now quite low.
You could try getting everyone to say they will not work this week unless they give the lift passes back, but you need to work out if this is a good course of action or not first... as might end up not having a job at all and then the hassle of trying to get paid what they owe you...
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| borntoski wrote: |
| If they didnt owe me 2 months wages. |
How come? Were you expecting this? Do they have solvency problems?
And I doubt it's legal. If your parents have legal insurance on their household insurance it might be worth giving them a call for some advice.
There are ways to approach staff performance issues, and cancelling a ski pass seems unlikely to be suitable.
You might want to think about buying yourselves one week passes and then suing the company for the cost - split amongst a few of you the costs won't be much. (In the English courts, presumably, as you presumably have English contracts.) Mind you warn the company first that this is what you are going to do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If the staff have got any sense whatsoever, they will appoint a spokesperson, and agree on a Friday night that they are all walking out for a week.
That should remind the powers that be who needs who in this scenario, and who is exploiting who.
Decent managers don't need childish punishments for poor performance.
If you are working in France under an illegal UK contract, it probably isn't worth toilet paper. So you might as well act like the French do when treated like this - walk out.
Ensure that nobody, and I do mean nobody, breaks the strike. As soon as a few people decide they can't possibly argue with the inept manager then it is easy to single out a few people and replace them.
If the staff did get as far as walking out, I'd be surprised if the resort manager was still in a job the week after. Short term pain, long term gain.
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I know a ski company that only allows ski instructors a day pass and one has to get it at the lift station everyday so if you are naughty you won't get one or want to sell the weeks pass and buger off you will not.
This sounds better for your Hotel, individual performance monitoring.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Monium wrote: |
| If you are working in France under an illegal UK contract, it probably isn't worth toilet paper. |
I'm not sure I can agree with that. The rest of your post is great though...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There is also the possibility to consider that you might be doing a crap job of it and the feedback is entirely justified. I have been in resorts where some of the TO employees were dire - I would (as a customer) have welcomed some repercussions for their awful performance. As it was the feedback was ignored.
One of the reasons they will hang on to two months wages and a bond is precisely so that they have got your backside in a sling in situations like this. If you don't like it, you can't work for a lot of TOs who do the same. Check out the Ts & Cs on the bond and salary thing, you might just find you have the ability to completely drop them in it a week from the end of the season, where you'd lose a little bit, they'd be completely shafted. It would be fun, and you might get a bit of cash to put behind the bar at the end of the season to get everyone to stay.
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haha this is kind of funny i was considering booking with this company as they have some good deals on chaletdirect but hink i will give them a miss as it sounds like the staff might be about to jump ship
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You know it makes sense.
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You could always try occupying the chalets  a la Les Menuires 7.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| marksavoie wrote: |
| You could always try occupying the chalets a la Les Menuires 7. |
This sounds pretty sensible in the current circumstances. Not much to lose is there! It might just lead to a reduction in the number of chalet operators screwing over their staff for a season if we see a bit more industrial action from those screwed over.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| enduroaid wrote: |
| haha this is kind of funny i was considering booking with this company as they have some good deals on chaletdirect but hink i will give them a miss as it sounds like the staff might be about to jump ship |
Gosh, jolly lucky you spotted this thread then!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| borntoski wrote: |
The first thing I wantto say is never work for this company.
Now Im looking for some advice; head office has decided to cancel every member of staffs lift passes in the hotel I work for one week, due to 'negative feedback'. Is this legal? There is no mention of their ability to do this in our contracts. Anyone? If they didnt owe me 2 months wages and a bond I would be walking out the door. |
If you really want to p*ss them off get in contact with the "Inspection du Travail" http://www.rhone-alpes.direccte.gouv.fr/droit-du-travail-saisonnier.html
Even though you're on an English contract (albeit probably quite a dubious one).
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Their written disciplinary procedures probably forms part of your contract - you should get a copy.
Get their proposed action/explanation writing.
Write them a letter/email outlining how you feel this is unfair. Point out that your ski pass is part of your wage, and that Section 13 of the 1996 Employments Rights Act probably applies.
Show you're serious, but keep it professional. As has already been pointed out, this is all a game as most British TOs employ under english law illegally. Giving you back your skipass is a lot less pain for them than bringing up minimum wage issues etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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.Ro, They work in France. English law doesn't apply and is irrelevant.
French law on the other hand is an incestuous monster than consumes twice it's own worth and feed only those that are part of it's grotesquely inefficient self interested elite. Use French law only at your own peril 
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| Jivebaby wrote: |
.Ro, They work in France. English law doesn't apply and is irrelevant.
French law on the other hand is an incestuous monster than consumes twice it's own worth and feed only those that are part of it's grotesquely inefficient self interested elite. Use French law only at your own peril |
Even with UK companies and on UK contracts?
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yep.
might be able to handle it as a UK employment contract but with a temporary secondment to french company, and file E101/E106 forms, but they'd still be under French employment laws and tax, etc. but UK social security. time to sort that paperwork would probably exceed the length of a ski season.
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clarky999, Put in another way. Would you work for a Chinese company in the UK under Chinese law? Sounds silly, but this is the scenario you are suggesting should apply in France:
They work in France and should be paying tax, social etc there. Potentially if the Impots guys suspect any evasion the company would have some difficult questions to answer if it's employer people to work in France. Firstly they are providing a service, so a Siret #, TVA to pay and account for. Rather than withdrawing labour this might be a more productive way to reach a solution. that said, if I'm paying good money in a catered chalet and the service isn't up to scratch I complain -if this means ski passes are cancelled or people whose job it is to make sure my week is perfect don't then I'm quite happy for their heads to roll.
Bear in mind borntoski, is complaining about losing his ski pass and is owed wages. He's not said that the complaints aren't valid or that he's done a great job. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Jivebaby wrote: |
clarky999, Put in another way. Would you work for a Chinese company in the UK under Chinese law? Sounds silly, but this is the scenario you are suggesting should apply in France:
They work in France and should be paying tax, social etc there. Potentially if the Impots guys suspect any evasion the company would have some difficult questions to answer if it's employer people to work in France. Firstly they are providing a service, so a Siret #, TVA to pay and account for. Rather than withdrawing labour this might be a more productive way to reach a solution. that said, if I'm paying good money in a catered chalet and the service isn't up to scratch I complain -if this means ski passes are cancelled or people whose job it is to make sure my week is perfect don't then I'm quite happy for their heads to roll.
Bear in mind borntoski, is complaining about losing his ski pass and is owed wages. He's not said that the complaints aren't valid or that he's done a great job. |
I'm not suggesting I'm asking!
I'm sure I've read somewhere something about temporary/seasonal contracts not being subject to normal French regulations (or some such grey area), and this is one of the ways TO's can get round paying proper wages?
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clarky999, It is a grey area-which perhaps some seek to exploit,and there would be big trouble in the event of a serious staff accident.
Grey areas = similar to the large number of UK that drive in France using UK plates which are often invalid/expired as they are not taxed, therefore the MOT cannot be valid after a while and whoa the French are really, really hard on driving without insurance and yet so many risk losing their car on the spot. It's a legal issue as without tax the licence plate is invalid and illegal to drive on any public road in the EU or Switzerland. I suspect this doesn't happen is Austria, although it's amazingly common in France.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm with .Ro, s13 of the employment act probably applying.
You are not at school. Your ski pass is not a privilege that can be withdrawn.
Now, you are an employee and can be subject to disciplinary action. Which can include the sack. But it cannot include arbitrary reductions in your salary.
That said, pull your finger out. Your customers will be having a miserable time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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James the Last, if the staff have not been paid then they aren't their customers anymore. I feel sorry for the companys clients who are hoping for a great stay in the mountain, but if the operator isn't paying their staff and generally treating them badly, how can you expect the staff to give a ginger-toss about whether the guests have a good experience.
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Richard_Sideways +1
If they're not paying you and then they take your lift pass away I can't see how that would motivate you to do a decent job...
No-one works for free.
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You know it makes sense.
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Jivebaby, Unless you've got specific experience in Brit TO HR, knowing what should reasonably the case isn't necessarily the same as the grey shadows in which they do operate. I think Lizzard's explained most of the intricacies of how far they'll push the line in the past.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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After reading this thread, I remember that I nearly booked with Ski Power but decided against it at the last minute after reading a poor report on trip advisor - now sure I made the right decision
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Poster: A snowHead
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It is not unknown for a large part of the wages to be with-held until the season is completed. Perhaps that is why they are owed them?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, Fair point = To be honest, from long and continuing personal expeience, I try to leave logic, justice and what is reasonable at home. In France I no have any expectation that any of these things will ever happen 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| .Ro wrote: |
Show you're serious, but keep it professional.
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Best advice to far.
It seems a bit petty on behalf of the company to revoke lift-passes, and certainly not good for staff morale - but staging a sit-in or walk-out, maybe seems a bit overkill (?)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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abj, Bear in mind the French could easily burn the chalet down along with any random branded vehicles. Just think about Macdonalds being burnt down, countless barricades and cars burnt, monthly ATC strikes etc The French treat civil unrest as an art from.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abj, sorry but if a person isn't getting paid for their labour, then why should they not have the right to withdraw that labour. Give them fair notice (say 48 hours) and if the company don't get their house in order, walk.
As for the lift pass issue, if it was considered a bonus then the company should have the discressionary right to revoke it if Staff aren't performing, but if it constitutes part of their remuneration package, then it shouldn't be removed. Thats a matter for the Ts&Cs of the OPs contract.
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| Quote: |
marksavoie wrote:
You could always try occupying the chalets a la Les Menuires 7.
This sounds pretty sensible in the current circumstances. Not much to lose is there! It might just lead to a reduction in the number of chalet operators screwing over their staff for a season if we see a bit more industrial action from those screwed over.
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sounds like the beginning of an arab spring here... the alpine awakening? Headlines around the world will read "seasonaires strike! coming to a resort near you!"
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Im surprised no one has questioned - how do you cancel a lift pass for a week? Is that even possible? After a pass is cancelled can it be reactivated?
Or maybe they are going to go around and demand each member of staff hands them over, then you could just say no?
Could try having a word with the lift pass office altho that might be difficult
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Skola, Lift pass office just cancels the pass code for a week, won't open lift barriers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hi borntoski,
I have worked for a lot of large tour operators although never ski power, and I can promise you that most of the hardball tactics suggested above will just get you onto the first plane home - whilst they may not have a liftpass cancellation clause in their contract I am sure that they have a clause allowing them to end your season early if they choose to do so.
You don't mention in your post whether you have had a lot of negative feedback, or whether their comments about this are justified.
If so, my advice would be to go as a group (clean, smart, on time and in uniform) to sit down with your boss and explain that you all feel badly about the negative feedback and are willing to do what it takes to improve things. Look at the points carefully with your boss ie if it is the cleaning then have a deep clean, if it is customer service, then ask for more training etc and make a plan for what you are going to do to tackle it. Stay professional, positive and helpful and avoid being defensive or critising the feedback, even if it isn't correct. Do this before any mention of liftpasses.
If you haven't been given any negative feedback your first step should be to politely ask to see this so you know what has been said about you.
At the end of the meeting explain that you feel that their threat to restrict your liftpasses has been the wake up call that you needed and that you are serious about tackling these issues working together. Ask them to give you the chance to put the things right before taking your passes away, following the plan that you have made together. Explain calmly that you can see their point of view but feel that the liftpasses are part of your package and that you are loath to work without pay.
I don't know about this particular incident but my guess would be that they don't want to restrict your passes, or deal with the chaos that goes on when this happens but that they can't see another way to get the problems fixed so they will jump at another option if they believe that this will work.
Good luck!
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Snow and Sunshine, A very reasoned answer! But from what and how the OP stated, I dont think they (as a group) have the charm, smarts and articulation that can solve this in the manner you suggest! It is however the right aproach! Sure they can fight but they will lose, and be on the dole queue in the UK the following week! The "les Menuires 7" seem to have requesites but these lads may have a customer service problem! It would seem that the OP thread has not been followed up on by themselves and could indicate that if they are lazy on this matter, the customer feedback may be justified!
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