 Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry its not a good pic, Crystal dark St Foy looking back up, guess where it avalanches when it does? Plus my son is somewhere in the photo about half way down
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pedantica, I am pleased that what I posted has provoked a discussion like this. Much more interesting than some of what we often get involved in on here so thanks for starting this.
Regarding the 'Piste Naturs'. As I understand this 'name' based on what was explained to me by one of the technical directors of the pisteurs (and am willing to be corrected if anyone knows any factual details), some years ago there was a court case where a resort was found responsible for not protecting an itinerary route which was on there piste map (someone was hurt in an avalanche and sued them). This resulted in all 'itineraries' being removed from piste maps across France.
Tignes then started the first 'off piste protected area' called the 'spot'. Other resorts watched what happened and when they were convinced it was a good idea copied it.
The way they did this in Les Arcs and the Paradiski area was that they changed many of the black runs to un-pisted protected areas called 'Piste Naturs'. As has been mentioned by others, some like Malgovert would be very hard to piste anyway. Others like around the Aiguille Rouge are no longer pisted. However ALL these areas are avalanche protected and are only opened when the piste security consider them to be safe. This means I would think, although I am not an insurance expert, that as they are controlled by the resort and you do not need to carry avalanche safety gear your normal ski insurance would cover you and the pisteurs would come to your aid if you had an accident. So everyone can go and enjoy these areas without worrying about 'off piste' safety issues in more serious areas.
I hope that explains what these places are. They have in fact replaced the old 'itineraries' in areas where the resorts think they can be protected fully. Some in the Paradiski area are completely new, others are redesignated black pistes.
I hope that all helps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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b]Boredsurfing[/b], the old itineraries on the glacier area of La Plagne are NOT piste naturs. This is now an off piste zone and is not protected. There is a big sign in orange telling you that you are entering an off piste zone and must carry all your own safety gear and you enter this area at your own risk.
For general information to anyone coming to the Paradiski area. There are signs at various places in both Les Arcs and La Plagne warning people to be correctly equipped before going off piste. There are also testing stations for your transceivers and avalanche parks to train how to use them. The pisteurs also offer free training which I think is great. I organise with the pisteurs for English speaking people to get this training in English in Les Arcs if anyone gets in touch with me to arrange this. As the warning signs are posted by the Security de Piste I would think they constitute local authority advice in Insurance terms. These warnings DO NOT apply to piste natur areas.
The new Black piste at the bottom of the Glacier area in La Plagne called 'Le Derochoir' has sometimes been pisted in places this season, but the steeper section in the middle seems to be left untouched. This area use to be just 'off piste' , but now it is a protected area so anyone can ski it when open.
If anyone has any other questions about this, please do get in touch.
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snowcrazy, thanks for those comments. Very helpful.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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livetoski, Cheers, thanks, straight down the piste.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ibexman, yep no trees dead give away  ski where the trees are much safer, but do not hit them they are tough little bug*gers
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livetoski, I think I have a picture of one of my daughters on it somewhere!
I take it the area to the left of the Marquise lift (as you look up the mountain) is not a controlled area, as the pisteurs were keen to make sure we were properly equipped.
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I absolutely love the piste naturs in resorts, for me I normally travel with th other half and friends who are either not experienced enough or not keen for off piste. Subsequently I'm limited to one or two off piste lessons each trip, depending on what I can afford, to try to build on technique and see some exciting scenery. The naturs allow me to go off and do a few runs by myself every day, to make sure I'm getting good practice in and pushing myself. If it's beside a listed run (or bar!) even better as I can go off and do it while they are busy! Hope the trend for these gets momentum!
Anyone know if there are any in Courchevel? Can't see any on the map, heading out there for first time in 4 weeks 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowcrazy, very helpful and informative, many thanks. I thought I hadn't imagined France's wholesale abolition of itineraries at one stage, but had forgotten the reason.
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Yeah we ran into the piste naturs in LA in January. Had some fun but the ones we were on were so badly cut, only the fresh snowfall made them tolerable.
Rule of thumb, Piste natur := mogulfest.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ibexman,
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I take it the area to the left of the Marquise lift (as you look up the mountain) is not a controlled area
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If your turning left off the top of the Marquise lift you could be going to ski the Col Granier off piste route down to La Masure, I think thats why they usually ask to see your gear. I think its great that the lifties ask people I have not seen this in many resorts. Funny thing is that qute a few of the lifties in Foy are British! Got to be careful with that, one is Welsh!
The big open area back down onto the Soliet is not crontrolled as far as I am aware, we call this the Powder Paddocks but not sure what the official name is.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, <<<sigh>>>
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You know it makes sense.
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Pedantica, sorry. And sympathy.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, thanks. Next year, I hope.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Boredsurfing has it.
The Piste Natur runs in the Paradiski are all just marketing (as are the same type of runs in EK AFAIK).
Pre marketing they were just black pistes that very rarely, if ever, had a piste basher driven up and down them. Therefore they were steep, icy and moggled.
Post marketing they are "Piste Natur", black runs that never see a piste basher. Therefore they are steep, icy and moggled.
i.e. nothing has changed on the ground, the runs are identical to before and the insurance status is unchanged as it is still a "piste"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| rob@rar, thanks. Next year, I hope. |
Did you not score pow in St Anton?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SkiG, I guess the Grand Couloir (Tight right out of Saulire cable-car) is effectively 'nature' - marked on the piste map as a normal black but never (in my experience) groomed.
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How are these 'pistes nature' marked? Do they have poles down each side or are they like Austrian and Swiss Itineraries with just a single pole up the centre? With the latter, I've always wondered just how far away one can ski from the centre poles before the pisteurs' avalanche control work can no longer be relied upon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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They are marked just like any other piste, with black or red poles just like any other black or red run. They are literally just runs that are never pisted.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| ... the pisteurs' avalanche control work . |
As far as I know, with regard to Les Arcs at least, there is no avalanche control work undertaken. If pisteurs consider them unsafe they mark the run as closed rather than blast the hell out of it.
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rob@rar, must correct you on this one. The piste natures are all avalanche protected in Les Arcs to some degree and that is one of the reasons why they are not always open. The pisteurs spend a lot of time blasting the areas before they are opened after snow fall or temperature changes. On a number of times this season we have skied down some off them and seen the blast areas where the charges have been laid or thrown!  or seen the results of the cable blast or blast canons that are used.
Flet©h, I do not agree with you on this and think Boredsurfing is wrong. Although some were not often pistes before, a number of them were always pisted and the area that they have now protected is bigger than the old pistes where I use to ski. This is not just clever marketing, but a positive move forward with the change in ski/snowboards to give more people access to safe off piste skiing. I hope they add a few more and other resorts follow this trend.
Richard_Sideways, as rob@rar, showed in his photo, some piste naturs in Les Arcs are great if you get to them at the right time. The fact that they get tracked out and turned to moguls after a lot of use shows that they are popular and people like the idea. Better this than flat hard packed pistes as in many other areas after heavy use.
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snowcrazy, thanks for the correction. I've never seen any evidence of avalanche control on those slopes, but I guess that reflects the fact that I don't ski them that often. Good to know they are doing more of that kind of work, although I'm surprised they don't make more of that fact in publicity for the resort. For many skiers some controlled off-piste terrain would be a big selling point.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, rob@rar,
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For many skiers some controlled off-piste terrain would be a big selling point.
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That must be right. I can't be alone in being desperate for somewhere to play and to practise - on my own, or just with friends - without the expense of having to hire a guide, and without having to worry about avalanche danger. I'm now going to look much more assiduously for terrain like this, wherever I go, moguls or no moguls. (Oh dear, I did make a terrible pig's ear of the icy moguls on Malgovert.  )
It's still a bit of an open question, in my mind, whether this kind of thing would be called 'off-piste' for insurance purposes. An ordinary run, marked as such, but simply left ungroomed, would surely qualify as a 'piste' in normal parlance. Not so sure about the sort of open hillside which Cathy describes in the PdS. But if one has insurance which covers off-piste without a guide, then it doesn't really matter.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The piste Natur in Les Arc is largely a renaming of an old concept. On a few of these pistes you will see an old notice saying "piste non Damme" (Please excuse my spelling) in other words some pistes such as the red Claire Blanc have never seen a piste basher. I for one really welcome these pistes and for me they form some of the best pistes in Les Arcs.
Far from all blacks are piste natur, for example the excellent long mogul field of Combourciere is occasionally pisted and it is well worth a blast after fresh pisting.
The itineraires are completly different and have just disappeared from the Les Arcs piste map altogether. The oldest map I have (having lost my even older one) is the 1988/9 map which shows itineraires from the grand col to le Pre, from 1800 to Hauteville Gondon close to the current VVT track, from Arc 1600 to Boug st Maurice (I can vaguely recall the bridges over the road) and one from the Deux Tete down to 1600. None of these have become pistes
The map is very interesting in that not only have itineraires disappeared but so have some black runs. Some have been regraded red but a couple, such as Tommelet have disappeared altogether. All green pistes have been regarded blue. The lift system has changed out of all recognition. The Arc 2000 bowl had 12 drag lifts in it alone and theer were 8 in Arc 1600. Even by that time the combourciere chair lift had replaced the drag lift that previously went up the valley and the old Mont Blanc chairlift had replaced the drag lift that went from the plateau above Arc 1600 to the Deux Tete.
If anyone is interested I will try and scan the map and post it.
John
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| johnE wrote: |
| If anyone is interested |
Yes, very!
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rob@rar, It will take me a couiple of days. At the moment my scanner is not recognised by Windows 7 and I have yet to mount linux on my new PC.
I also have some old 1:25000 maps of the area. The 1974 shows a fairly extensive lift system over most of the Les Arcs area, but no development at 1800 and 2000 at all.
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You know it makes sense.
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johnE, likewise, would love to see the piste map / lift map from way back then. First visit was only 2002, at that stage Marmottes was still a dual drag, Vagere had just been installed in1800, and Bois de L'Ours was same vintage as Pre St Esprit and Combourciere.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There's a relatively new one in Les Saisies - rather poor video here gives an idea. http://vimeo.com/3028293
There are piste markers, so it's not "off piste" - but I suspect it's not patrolled at the end of the day.
I think the "sweeping" of runs at the end of the day is a good thing for several reasons. I got "swept" a couple of years ago when accompanying a very weak skier and his two kids down the easy but very long blue run home. They had been determined to do it, but I was a bit concerned because of the timing - they were pretty slow. Anyway, the young girl fell and twisted her knee. Nothing v serious but she was tired and very weepy (I had thought in my grandmotherly way that they should all have packed up a bit earlier). the father was strong enough to carry her, but too poor a skier. I was a good enough skier but too feeble. We needed to get down the mountain. The ski patrol came past - our immediate neighbour, as it happened, and just swept her up and carried her down.
The key reason they sweep, and then close, the runs is to ensure that nobody gets chewed up by a piste basher. Seems fair enough to me. I don't see why it should be confined to easy runs either - rather the reverse. If some bold chap bent on getting "the last chairlift" comes a cropper as he swoops down an otherwise empty black piste, how nice to think a strong skier will be bringing up the rear, paid to ensure that everyone is safely down.
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Poster: A snowHead
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'livetoski, What sort of discount on Whitedots?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arctic Roll, The Transarc had been built by then, the Plagnettes had replaced the 2 drags to the Col du Chal, the chair upto the Grand Col had replaced the drags that went almost to the top and the two Plan Verte drag lifts had vanished for good.
Any suggestions as to the best way to post it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| I think the "sweeping" of runs at the end of the day is a good thing for several reasons... |
I think you're right, pam_w, and I was probably too dismissive of sweeping earlier. It's not relevant to me because I'm not a weak skier and I always ski in a group of strong skiers. But it's not smart of me to have assumed that just because I don't need something then it's of no use to anyone.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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johnE, gosh yes, the Plagnettes, which in turn... etc.etc I do remember those drag lifts still in operation mind you, for lapping the top half, just as plagnettes is used now.
Best way to post it? - hmm not sure: maybe insert as an 'image' - like you would a photo (but use a jpeg to keep the size down) might work. Or if you scan it as a pdf you coudl always mail it!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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b]Boredsurfing[/b], regarding the Off Piste area in the Bellecote bowl which use to be two blacks. This is most certainly now an off piste 'un-secured and un-patrolled area'. The next time you go there I would suggest you read the sign at the entrance again if you still think otherwise. It is not a 'piste nature' and people need to know this and go there equipped correctly. To give any other advice could put there lives at risk! 
johnE, I think it would be great if you have these old maps to post them. All those old tows bring back happy memories for me. Being lifted off the ground when I was young going up to the top of the Grand Col or by the race course. They were really fun. I know having chairs is progress, but I wish they had at least kept a few of them.
If anyone else has details of other ski areas that have specific 'Piste natures' or similar, which are protected when open, please do post the details. I think it would be great to build up a list of resorts and names of routes where people could go to ski in Europe where they can do 'off piste' in a protected area and do not need to carry all the essential safety gear required for the un-protected areas.
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| kioksor wrote: |
| same as a regular piste only ungroomed. |
So, is this the first time that the Bulgarians have been trend-setters in a modern (or retro, if you prefer) approach to skiing... 
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| I think the "sweeping" of runs at the end of the day is a good thing for several reasons... |
I think you're right, pam_w, and I was probably too dismissive of sweeping earlier. It's not relevant to me because I'm not a weak skier and I always ski in a group of strong skiers. But it's not smart of me to have assumed that just because I don't need something then it's of no use to anyone. |
The sweep is useful for those who insist on doing "one last lift up" and be the last one on the mountain.
Whether it's a strong skier blasting down a long icy black piste or an overly enthusiastic beginner on inching his/her way down the long winding blue, if they're last then fall, there's no one behind them to help.
The one time I found the sweep useful was when I found myself standing at a junction trying to figure out which run goes to the right base village! A quick instruction confirming what I thought was the right way, was extremely reassuring, especially when the light started to fade...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ibexman, the "guts" of the broad gully which forms the main part of the run (after the traverse) usually goes in one massive slide at the end of the season.
Above the traverse does look sketchy, but I can't remember seeing a really big slide there. It is patrolled and controlled (via the Catex).
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FAQ
