 Poster: A snowHead
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| It is only the (historic/flawed/biased) Betteridge formula that currently keeps my homeland afloat. |
Simply not true. Recent GER (goverment expenditure report) all shows that Scotland pays its own way within the UK in terms of tax raised / money spent. Could an independent Scotland be better off ? The simple answer is that it depends what % of the North Sea oil revenues we would get to keep.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4508-boost-for-independence-as-report-shows-scotland-in-better-shape-than-uk
Even if Scotland became independent there is no reason BASI couldnt remain the ski instructing assocaition for the home nations (eng, wales, scot, NI).
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| Of course the situation in Switzerland will not change, but those BASI members, who hold a Scottish passport working (at the moment) in the EU (France, Italy, Austria, etc), we’ll just have to wait and see. |
There is no such thing as a 'Scottish' passport. We are all currently UK citizens.
Who knows what will happen - but its wrong to assume that an independent Scotland couldnt become an EU member. Remember that England is not a member of the EU either! (currently the membership for both nations is via UK).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Wayne, has the SNP said how they will decide whether someone will be Scottish or British? |
The referendum will be open to all people on the electoral register who are permanent residents of Scotland in 2014. Doesnt matter what nationalty you are.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Remember that England is not a member of the EU either! (currently the membership for both nations is via UK).
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England would remain part of the UK however.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Haggis_Trap, the referendum yes, but what about afterwards? English, Welsh etc working in Scotland may not want to lose their British passport. Would they have a timeframe to get out? And Scots who weren't currently living in Scotland - could they choose to get the new Scottish passport?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Wayne wrote: |
beanie1,
Oh but I do know one thing. If Scotland is admitted into the EU they will have no choice but to accept the Euro which leads to a few questions about not only your wages but also where they come from 
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Nope...
The Bank Of Scotland have been issuing and printing their own £ notes since the 17th century.
In simple terms the £ is the currency of the UK, not England. Therefore Scots would have a right to continue using £UK (with interest base rate influenced by BofE), Euro, or own currency as they decide.
Good question. My guess is there would be some kind of passport grace / interim period required *if* Scotland did vote YES.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 11-12-12 15:33; edited 1 time in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| There is no such thing as a 'Scottish' passport. We are all currently UK citizens. |
Sorry I should have said that I was talking about the "possible" outcome.
Imagine this.
In a few years you (with a Scottish passport) and me (with a UK passport) both turn up asking to work for the ESF. Now we all know that the locals would have no problem with this as they love the EU and all its members.
So the first thing they do (at the interview) is to check our nice BASI cards and to make sure everything is OK. Next day we start working away teach the French how to ski (properly  )
Shortly later you get arrested as you don't have the right to work in the EU as Mr Salmond insisted in keeping the £ and didn't want to join the Euro - he had no choice as he promised he would keep the £ and so he could fulfil the criteria for Scotland to join the EU - oppps
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| In simple terms the £ is the currency of the UK, not England. Therefore Scots would have a right to continue using £UK |
Hmmm, not really if they are no longer in the UK.
They can call it the ScotPound or whatever - but if they want to join the EU they will have no choice but to use the Euro
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 11-12-12 15:44; edited 1 time in total
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^ its scaremongering (and patronising) to automatically assume that Scotland wouldn't be able to join EU much like any other new nation.
Clearly the independence question depends on lots of current unknowns. Some of these will need to be answered by Westminster / Brussels (such as EU membership, share of national debt, north sea oil).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap you're 100% correct.
Most people agree that Scotland would be able to join the EU (and the Euro) if they wanted just to; not on the terms that Mr Salmond telling anyone who will vote for him.
see here
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/spp/publications/unit-publications/68.pdf
It's a bit old but still answers the basic questions
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| Quote: |
| "Haggis_Trap, The Bank Of Scotland have been issuing and printing their own £ notes since the 17th century. |
Try spending a Scottish note in Yorkshire and see what reaction you get
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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is it that self-important a group to need to change ANYTHING regardless of vote outcome? says who? current members currently happy but suddenly not after a yes vote?
i take it the organisation has many non-British members?
busywork for jobsworths me thinks, anyone REALLY care?
(I aint British nor even Scottish, so likely care even less )
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wayne, you seem to be assuming that those who might be entitled to Scottish passports would lose their right to British citizenship. I suspect that would not be the case, and there is historical precedent in that many Irish born people still have the right to British citizenship if a grandparent (possibly only paternal grandfather, but I'm not certain of that level of detail) was born in the UK - and that included all of Ireland up to 1922. So even if Scotland votes for independence it's many years before most Scots need to worry about citizenship for EU working rights.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Wayne, has the SNP said how they will decide whether someone will be Scottish or British? Will it depend on where you were born? If so what about those Scots working in England? Or where you live - if so what about the English working in Scotland? |
edit - misread question. As far as I've read it is supposed to be a case of being offered Scottish citizenship, so people could be Scots, or dual nationality, or Brits. No idea of minutiae.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 11-12-12 22:50; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Could we form FEASI after Scots have gone the French and English Ski I Asssos under the reference of Henry 8 and then we needn’t worry about all this equivalence?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Haggis_Trap,
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its scaremongering (and patronising) to automatically assume that Scotland wouldn't be able to join EU much like any other new nation.
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It's also nonsense to assume that they automatically can. Salmond has been caught out on this as on so much else..
Although it is not absolutely clear what will happen and clearly there is a lot down to political will rather than legal rights and wrongs. At the moment the word coming out from Europe is that Scotland would have to apply to join. The current state of joining the EU is that you have to sign up to the Euro as a currency.
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Poster: A snowHead
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An amusing little thread this 
^^ Wayne, I'm not convinced the SNP are playing a straight bat on the EU issue and I think in the upcoming referendum the issue could be a major reason why people will vote against independence. Certainly I'm based in England (born in Scotland and lived there until I was in my 20s), spending the season in Aviemore and if I had a vote would certainly be very nervous about voting for independence if there was any doubt about EU membership (remember the Scots generally don't have the knee jerk response to Europeans far too many of the Eeengleeesh do ). I view the prospect of Scottish independence pretty positively and don't believe all the stuff about Scotland not being able to fund itself, in fact Scotland (oil etc) helps fund England or at worst funds itself quite adequately according to what I've read and ironically governments like Thatcher's kept their policies afloat (destruction of the industrial base in Northern Britain etc) with Scottish oil revenues. There are big reserves in the deep sea as well as Scotland having enormous renewables potential, quite a sizeable share of the potential resources in the EU actually. However, I still think the Spanish will vote against an automatic entry for Scotland and that will be the deal breaker I suspect.
beanie1 & Wayne, passports/citizenship will apparently be given to people residing in Scotland in the first instance be they of English, Scottish or any other ethnic background and in the second instance like Ireland those with a connection to Scotland (birth etc.) will be able to apply for one too. So as I understand it I could end up with a UK passport (living in England, English mother) as well as a Scottish one (born in Scotland, Scottish father) and I guess my kids could get a Scottish passport too despite being born in Englandshire, not sure what the status of my (English) wife would be though.
As for BASI, well I'm firmly of the belief that all those moaning at present about the office being in the highlands are wrong on the basis of history and the fact that like it or not, use it or not the hub of the indigenous skiing industry in the British Isles is in Scotland - most are soft southerners in the SE of England anyway (not you Wayne) so they should just be ignored 
After independence (if it happens) surely a small admin office in say the Lake District (or somewhere equally calculated to wind up those fearing anywhere north of Watford, maybe north Wales even) would suffice? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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bothered....not a lot !! let em get on with it ...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| At the moment the word coming out from Europe is that Scotland would have to apply to join. The current state of joining the EU is that you have to sign up to the Euro as a currency. |
I have yet to hear one good reason why Scotland would be refused entry to the EU. As our share of the national debt is in £UK it is most likely that is the currency we would adopt initially (if the remaining UK can stay in the EU using £'s then Scotland would be able to apply on that basis).
Personally I wouldnt stress too much about EU being the deal breaker : Norway and Switzerland both survive just fine outside the EU. Plus you can still join the EEA - so any talk about being isolated on the edge of Europe is just nonsesne.
What the Scottish people really wanted is further devolved / tax raising powers to Holyrod whilst remaing part of the UK... Almost all of the opinion polls says this - but the LAB and CON partys denied us a second question on devo-max. A dangerous gamble by Westminster.....
Would Scotland be better off independent ? In my mind the answer is totally dependent on being given access to 75-100% of the remaining North Sea oil. Of course that resource wont last for ever : but the amount of oil estimated to remain in the North Sea is worth x3 the entire UK national debt over the next 40 years!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Haggis_Trap, I think the point being made is that currently to join the EU, the rules state you have to adopt the Euro.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Hungary and Lithuania do still not have target dates for adoption of the euro. Even though this was a "rule" when they joined in 2004 / 2007. The only new EU member that has converted to Euro's since 2004 is Slovenia (and they are actually doing quite well.)
Several other EU states, such as Sweden, UK, Denmark clearly have no current plans to join the Euro.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union
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Haggis_Trap,
The UK and Denmark negotiated Euro opt outs at the mastrict treaty...these would not apply to Scotland as under international law Scotland would be the "new state" and the UK would be the successor state so inherit all the treaty obligations the UK currently has (similar to Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union).
The Spanish Govt is extremely hostile to Scottish independence as they fear the precedent it would set for Catalonia and the Basque country, I would imagine they would be about as well disposed to Scottish membership of the EU as they are to an open border with Gibraltar.
As for the currency £ sterling would be the legally recognised currency of the United Kingdom, Scotland would have no say over its governance through the BoE and no way in which to influence interest rates....while Im sure the Scottish Parliament upon independence could legislate to make £ sterling the legal tender of an independent Scotland they would have no actual power over the BoE or monetary policy. I also doubt Scottish banks would be able to print sterling notes as this is done under licence from the BoE, I would imagine this would be revoked or at least regulated or there would be nothing to stop the Scottish Govt printing Sterling and causing hyper inflation in the remainder of the UK.
Lots to think about...I hope you dont leave, but im sure the world will not end if you do.
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I love these Scottish independence debates largely because of the mass of contractions and unknowns it throws up, never mind the legal issues and the relationship with the EU and the division of whats left of North Sea oil. (most of that will be in the area of the newly independent Shetland Isles).
However Scotland cannot leave Great Britain or the British Isles (these are geographic not political designations) so BASI can still be called BASI and represent anyone who wants to be represented by it. Though I haven't checked I believe that residents the Isle of Man can join BASI and they are not in the UK.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| johnE wrote: |
| (these are geographic not political designations) |
as if thats ever stopped the great empire before 
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| Quote: |
| Lots to think about...I hope you dont leave, but im sure the world will not end if you do. |
^ LAB and CON parties at Westminster should have let the Scottish people decide via a second referendum quesiton on further devolved and full tax raising powers. However Westminster were running scared of that option as devo-max was clearly a very popular option amongst the Scottish people.
Quite simply a proper debate on the complex devolution issue can not be answered properly with a simple YES or NO (the most extreme answers). Either way I dont believe the negative arguments that Scotland is too small and insignificant to make its own choices if they wanted too : the devolved parliament has already proved its worth by maintaining free higer education north of the border.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If scotland gets independance, they'll be skint within 10 years. #i'm just saying
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^ depends what happens to the North Sea oil money.... #just saying.
As things stand the entire UK is skint. The arrogant myth that southern England subsidisies Scotland has long since proven to be incorrect by multiple reports in recent years.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article871549.ece
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 12-12-12 16:13; edited 1 time in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ nope - no good reason why Scotland wouldnt be eligible for EU membership *if* they vote for full independence |
I guess if they allowed Greece in there is no real reason why the EU could say no.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ has wrong since proven to be incorrect |
Now there's a fine piece of near multiple negatives.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^ should read 'long since prove to be incorrect'
You are right - Greece should never have been allowed to join the euro (it was never in their best interest). Indeed when they eventually default, as rumoured, then we might not even have a euro currency for much longer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
| If scotland gets independance, they'll be skint within 10 years. #i'm just saying |
We're (UK) skint now!
The whole independence thing is getting very complicated. The EU thing is a nonissue in my mind, and I think it is reasonable to say that as there is no precedent or provision for this situation, the solution will be political, rather than according to a rulebook. You have a WM gov desperate to leave EU, using the threat of being kicked out the EU as a reason for Scots to vote no. It makes little sense, and I think a pretty small minority of people think it is a very important thing.
Actual generals in the Spanish army are talking about militarily occupying Catalonia. Cos that went so well in the 30s. I think it's reasonable to ignore them. Others in this thread have cited countries who are ostensibly required to join the Euro, who have cleverly not signed up to the European Exchange Rate Mechanism and thus don't satisfy the requirements for being permitted to join the Euro. The Euro was conceived in happier times. It's prerequisites are geared up to be for something countries want, rather than want to avoid. I guess what I'm saying is anyone from the pro or anti camp who are talking in black and white are either A: lying, B: ignorant or C: not applying realpolitik.
I will vote yes, and my basic faith in the intelligence, competence, charm and decency of my fellow countryfolk to muddle through whatever obstacles are put in front of us means I am unlikely to be persuaded to vote no.
I like the idea of keeping it called BASI after the British Isles.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis_Trap,
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LAB and CON parties at Westminster should have let the Scottish people decide via a second referendum quesiton on further devolved and full tax raising powers. However Westminster were running scared of that option as devo-max was clearly a very popular option amongst the Scottish people.
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The essence of devolution is devolving some powers and retaining others,crucially the devolved power still has powers in the UK. It is not up to Salmond, Scotland or anyone else to decide it unilaterally, unlike independance it has to be negotiated by both sides Salmond was grandstanding and trying to grab everything for himself.
The LIB/CONS wre qute right to keep the issue seperate.
Personally I think devolved powers would be good throughout Britain but it has to come through a fully thought out plan of what is to happen with all interested parties having a say, not through the populist idiocy of Salmond.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wayne,
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Hmmm, maybe not. In this specific case the essence appears to be getting as much power as Mr Salmond can under the guise of a nationalist agenda
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That was the point I was trying to make, obviously not very successfully.
Not sure how the accountancy works out where profits arise and where they arise on accounts are often very different as our government is discovering with Starbucks, Google etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wayne - uhmmm....
Your maths forget's 2 very basic facts.
1) The whole of the UK, including southern England, is running at defecit (its called a goverment surplus). So England and Wales are also over spending by very similiar amounts. Decades of borrowing by Labour at Westminster have left the entire UK skint.
2) North Sea oil. If you include this then Scotland provided 9.4% of total UK revenues and got 'only' 9.2% of UK public spending in return. As I said before North Sea Oil would be crucial to an independent Scotlands financial success. At present the goverment count all oil revenue as 'UK national output' even though 95% of the industry is based in Aberdeen and exploiting Scottish waters.
Here is a link with some actual numbers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Strikes me after recent cancellations of courses and a Euro Test instructors working in Scotland may well be telling the rest of the (current) UK that they're welcome to BASI independence or no independence!
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I do hope that Scotland does vote for independence or even a 'devolution max'.
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So.... looking like 2 options
1. Independent Scotland that probably remains in the EU
OR.
2. Remain part of the UK (but perhaps out of the EU if conservatives get their way).
David Cameron is to promise an in/out referendum on the EU if the Conservatives win the next election.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, interesting poll here on Scottish views re the EU.
I'm actually quite surprised Scottish opinion is as split as it is, okay it seems opinion is more pro EU than any other part of the UK but I thought support for Europe would be higher in Scotland.
All the same you're right, stay in the UK and possibly get a Tory UK government (with little support in Scotland) that forces the issue and probably takes the UK (with Scotland) out via a referendum or go independent and have a proper debate (without all the frenzied Xenophobia of the UK/English right) and the possibility of staying in.
Personally I'd opt for a sensible debate and Scotland making it's own decision and I suspect the EU would be quite keen to keep Scotland in given the large share of total EU renewables held in Scottish territory (25% of EU offshore wind; 25% of EU tidal; and 10% of EU wave power) coupled with at least 40 years of oil and gas left. In fact we might find that Scotland could negotiate far more favourable terms with the EU than UK governments have been able to do and might be viewed as a potentially more constructive and useful partner than any rump state dominated by England.
And on the subject of the independence debate there's an interesting article from a former supporter of the union here: Scottish independence is fast becoming the only option. For anyone leaning in a leftward direction (and that includes me and I'd hazard to say the vast majority of the Scottish electorate) there's a lot of food for thought in there, in fact a few outstanding issues apart I'd say it's pretty much a no brainer as 'the settled opinion' of the majority in the nation of Scotland moves further and further away from than of it's partner in the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and Northern Ireland). Remembering that legally we are talking about a partnership ratified by both parliaments in 1707, with England (and Wales, by that date a conquered principality). Ireland (another then conquered territory) was included at a later date and then left with the 'rump' statelet of Northern Ireland remaining. Scotland's position legally is the same as that of England's within the union, sorry NI and Wales but this is the legal position, and as an acknowledged "Kingdom" (like England) which chose (however grubby that vote may have been) to unite it has the same rights as the "Kingdom of England" to dissolve that union.
I'd just add that contrary to the prejudices of some in England this choice is being debated in Scotland not in terms of anti-Englishness but in terms of what is politically the best thing to do for Scotland as a nation and many are coming to the opinion that the current set up is doing nobody any good with Scottish MPs voting on issues that don't concern them at Westminster and sometimes foisting unpopular policies on the English electorate (see the last Labour Government) and vice versa on other issues - I guess the corollary is better to end up as amicable neighbours treading separate paths than surly bedmates sniping, arguing and blaming the other when things don't go the way we want them to.
As you can see I've been doing a bit of reading and researching ... I also have a tax return I'm avoiding doing
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the large share of total EU renewables held in Scottish territory (25% of EU offshore wind; 25% of EU tidal; and 10% of EU wave power)
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I suspect the EU can live without Scottish renewables particularly as using them in the EU would involve major grids through England.
Scottish sunshine seems to be a bit lacking on the renewable front.
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FAQ
- but if we look at the so called Copenhagen criteria' for EU membership, you’ll notice the last two words and these mean basically No Euro = No Join.
