 Poster: A snowHead
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| Pedantica wrote: |
James the Last,
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In fact, with the internet and a telephone OP could sit at his desk in England and "lead" (your choice of words) a group of skiers around a French mountain, and would you expect him to be a qualified instructor to do that?
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Did you spot, only the other day, that one snowHead (based in the north of England) advised another snowHead (based in Austria) which lifts were open and which pistes would therefore be good to ski? Brilliant, I thought! |
No, but when I was in St Anton over New Year, and one morning nothing was open I was taking the opportunity to catch up on some work. Some more optimistic members of the chalet went out "skiing" (waiting more like) and promised to let me know when something opened. I knew before they did, and they were sitting in a cafe in the town!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For those who clearly doubt the the information I've given re "ski hosting" I will simply say that it comes direct from the ex-DDJS (Dept de Jeunesse et des Sports; it's since changed names) that comes under the French Sports Ministry.
I've personally found them very helpful when I've asked for advice. On the other hand they, along with the PGHM (mountain genderamerie group) do the "checks" on the pistes and mountains when they may not be such a welcome sight for those who are operating outwith their remit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Woody, it is far too conicidental that a woman broke her leg in four places whilst on a ski Olympic holiday, so im assuming that we were on the same holiday. I regularly go with Ski Olympic and I think that it's rather harsh that you are slating the hosts for the job that they do......a job that you clearly don't understand. Ski Olympic make it clear that the host is responsible for showing you around the mountain, ergo being at the front of the group, not at the back, and nothing else. It is not their job to give aid, teach or direct guests off piste, they are purely there to show you around. In the case of the woman who unfortunately and innocuously broke her leg, the host would not do anything different to the likes of you and me, informing the pistees and marking the ground with an X to inform other skiers that there has been an injury. And as for your comment regarding their inability to ski well, that is simply outrageous.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Sooty14 wrote: |
| . In the case of the woman who unfortunately and innocuously broke her leg, the host would not do anything different to the likes of you and me, informing the pistees and marking the ground with an X to inform other skiers that there has been an injury. ... |
The initial post by Woody seemed to indicate the host didn't take the measures you outlined above, I wouldn't expect them to do anything else but in this case can either of you definitively state what happened?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Until now I have just been followng this thread. However as Arno, says from my experience, in French law, the most experienced person is deemed to be the leader whether qualified or not and applies to both on and off piste. Even when you are hiking in the summer this still applies. You are expected to carry out a duty of care for those with you. Common sense really.
marksavoie, knowing something about French law myself, please could you either post here or if you prefer PM me the link to the 'Code Penial' which applies to what you say regarding ski hosts. I presume that is where you found this info. The French law books on 'Codes' would according to my French friend be the only place where this gives a clear ruling. I also wonder if TO's would allow their staff to do this work if it were forbidden by law. Likewise, the SCGB leaders would also be breaking the law if what you say is correct.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The whole problem being discussed in this thread seems to arise because few European resorts have the same attitude to customer service that their North American counterparts have.
Every American and Canadian resort that I've ever visited has offered free, officially sanctioned tours of the mountain. The mountain hosts that I've spoken to are usually volunteers, often local pensioners, who are delighted to earn a free lift pass and possibly some gratuities in return for sharing their passion for their local ski hill. They work under a strict code of conduct, so double blacks are typically off limits, as are long runs that offer no easy escape route for skiers who get caught out of their depth. When the groups assemble, skiers are invited to assess their own ability and preferences; one group might go off to explore the mountain's best bump runs, for example, whilst another goes to find some hidden powder stashes.
I've taken a few of these tours and they've been invaluable. Locals can tell you which part of the mountain has the best skiing at different times of the day or under different weather conditions. Even if they don't venture into particularly difficult terrain with a group, they can tell you what to expect when you do - eg, where to expect rocky spots that could damage your skis, or which runs are covered with a layer of rock-hard ice unless the sun shines. They'll also pass unbiased opinions on the quality of local restaurants and other services.
I've never understood why so few European resorts offer this service. If they did, the gung-ho teenager stereotyped at the start of the thread would have no role.
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Jonny Jones,
America is different, the inbounds areas are avalanche controlled. Where you can and can't ski is normally clearly marked. They also have ski patrols in the USA. In Europe very few areas are closed off, a lot less is avalanche controlled, there is a lot more risk and chance that 'leaders' will lead others into danger.
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snowcrazy, Hi, I'll PM you. Mark
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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marksavoie, why not share the link with the rest of us.
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DB, but much of the discussion on this thread criticises the idea of hosts taking people around marked runs, not off piste. That's the serice that's completely unnecessary in North America, because it's provided free by the resort.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Jonny Jones,
As said before the playground is a lot more dangerous. The culture is also different. European resorts tend to have very few locals, in summer many are practically ghost towns. e.g. St Anton, Austria has a permanent population of around 2500 = a few hundred pensioners most of whom wouldn't be interested. The locals tend to work during the season and go skiing when it's quieter. I suspect fewer Europeans retire to a ski resort than in America. In general the European elderly are not interested in taking punters round the hill during peak times for peanuts - but ski company workers are. Besides if the locals are really interested in skiing they are normally ski instructirs or guides.
I'm not sure if the woman with the broken leg was helped by the ski host or not - we have at least two different stories.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Sooty14 wrote: |
| ... Olympic make it clear that the host is responsible for showing you around the mountain, ergo being at the front of the group, not at the back, and nothing else. It is not their job to give aid, teach or direct guests off piste, they are purely there to show you around. In the case of the woman who unfortunately and innocuously broke her leg, the host would not do anything different to the likes of you and me, informing the pistees and marking the ground with an X to inform other skiers that there has been an injury. And as for your comment regarding their inability to ski well, that is simply outrageous. |
Welcome to  s and well said.
IMV the OP and much of the intervening posts just reflect our society's increasing unwillingness to either take accountability for our own actions or accept any level or risk in a world that is full of it.
In my experience the biggest risk when following a TO ski guide is from the people in the group who are painfully unaware of their own (in)ability. Not from the actions or inactions of the ski guide.
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FlyingStantoni, also well said.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, we're off to Les Arcs with Ski Olympic in a couple of weeks. Been with them before but haven't used the guide service - I'm of the "I can read a piste map thanks" persuasion. I can see the value of the service, though.
Last year in La Plagne the guide was an older guy and seemed very competent and experienced. There was an accident with one of the guests breaking a leg - iirc he was with the guided party but he and a couple of others had elected to split off and take a black run which was where he fell. He was a solo traveller and the SO staff went out of their way to help him, visited him in hospital, sorted out his stuff etc.
I'd be very disappointed if the OP is accurate - especially as I've recommended Ski Olympic on this forum.
Sooty14, I'm sure we'd all like more details of the incident from your point of view if possible.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Some specific points...
| woody911 wrote: |
| So Ski hosts services that many companies seem to be having now in france... |
It's nice that you're right up to date with holiday offerings. The major TOs have been offering ski hosting / guiding since the 80s. In France, certainly, the whole debate about legality came and went years ago. marksavoie is possibly correct that it's probably not legal under the letter of the French law. But the ESF (are are the people who really care, not the resort) let it slide as long as you're not obviously and repeatedly teaching - in which case they report you to the PGHM. If a ski host is stupid enough to cross the line between hosting and teaching then they deserve the consequences.
| woody911 wrote: |
| Untrained lads and lasses... |
What a beautifully wild and unfounded generalisation.
| woody911 wrote: |
| I really do find this service disgraceful. |
If you feel so strongly then did you actually make a complaint to Sk Olympic about the actions of this individual?
Or is it just easier to slag off all people who do ski guiding after the event?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| Or is it just easier to slag off all people who do ski guiding after the event? |
And easier still to name and shame the company as well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
Jonny Jones,
As said before the playground is a lot more dangerous. The culture is also different. European resorts tend to have very few locals, in summer many are practically ghost towns. e.g. St Anton, Austria has a permanent population of around 2500 = a few hundred pensioners most of whom wouldn't be interested. The locals tend to work during the season and go skiing when it's quieter. I suspect fewer Europeans retire to a ski resort than in America. In general the European elderly are not interested in taking punters round the hill during peak times for peanuts - but ski company workers are. Besides if the locals are really interested in skiing they are normally ski instructirs or guides. |
DB, congratulations on reaching precisely 10,000 posts. But I think you misunderstand North American skiing. Many resorts aren't based in traditional communities at all: for example, Panorama in Canada offers an extremely active free Mountain Host service with 3-4 groups setting out every morning and afternoon. But the 'local' town, Invermere, is nearly 20 miles away and has a population of just 3,000, scarcely larger than St Anton and almost certainly much smaller than all the communities with 15 miles of St Anton. Maybe Austrians don't want to show off their resort to visitors, but it's not unreasonable for me to look favourably on the nations that do demonstrate such a level of hospitality.
As you say, there's a huge cultural difference between the two continents. In this particular case, it reflects rather better on the North Americans than on the Europeans.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jonny Jones,
The resort you mentioned has 9 lifts (according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panorama_Mountain_Village) whereas St Anton has 84 plus a vast area of backcountry skiing. 3-4 Groups for St Anton wouldn't be enough, it would probably need around 10 times that number. Bear in mind that Austria has over 300 ski resorts with most of them haveing many more than 9 lifts - I doubt there would be enough pensioners to go round even if they were called up as per military service.
There are pros and cons to every culture, some people will prefer America but Doug Coombs for example preferred La Grave. Ski Hosts in America can as you say ski bumps and Powder etc. If you had grown up in the mountains and eventually retired would you lead people round the pistes all day for just a ski pass or be out skiing Powder, maybe guiding for around €200+ a day?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, at the risk of cruelly whipping a deceased equine, the comparison is much less stark than you make out. Having skied both resorts in recent years, you greatly overerestimate the size difference between St Anton and Panorama. Direct comparisons are difficult, though, as Europe measures resorts in piste km while North America uses acres.
The 84 Arlberg lifts that you cite are spread over discrete ski areas connected only by bus, but you ignore Lech residents in your stats. The St Anton slopes are much smaller than this, but, even in those, I wouldn't have expected a half-day guided tour to roam, for example, from Nasserein / Kappel to Rendl or Stuben, as both links require an element of walking. Panorama's skiing feels significantly more extensive than the central St Anton slopes, and its 9 lifts greatly understate the true size of the ski area: at 2800 acres, it's larger than Breckenridge's 2,500 acres which manages to cram in a slightly claustrophonic 30 lifts.
Details of individual resorts are no more than illustrative, and demography and geography will significantly affect the ease with which mountain tours can be offered. But my original point was this: every North American resort I've ever visited offers free mountain tours and scatters staff liberally around the mountain so that any skier query about routes, grooming, snow conditions, etc can be answered without delay. The punters expect and demand nothing less. I've never seen that kind of service offered in Europe.
True, the culture is different over there. People pay higher prices and expect (and receive) better service. But the issues described in this thread - inexperienced, ignorant youths leading skiers onto slopes outside their ability and failing to understand appropriate procedures when accidents occur - would simply never occur under the North American system.
That's why I say that their approach is better in this instance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| I've never understood why so few European resorts offer this service. If they did, the gung-ho teenager stereotyped at the start of the thread would have no role. |
I'm not interested in a USA v Europe peeing contest. You posted the above and I explained why this service isn't normally offered by anyone except the ski companies. It's down to the culture of the people in Europe (that includes the UK because most don't want to pay extra for it).
Have a nice day now y'all.
http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/ee0f7cf745aea722029abf420a79f868.png
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DB, I would think it's also down to the fact that almost all European resorts are not owned by a single company to co-ordinate volunteer hosts anyway as seems more commonly to be the case in the US
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I think the key difference is that due to the relatively massive population of European holiday skiers, resorts know that they don't have to compete too hard for business, there will always be someone to fill the beds/buy the passes. The only exception I can think of is in macroeconomic shifts e.g. strength of CHF. Low snowpack this year is literally pushing some US resorts under whereas even in a total drought lots of Euro resorts will still be filled in peak weeks due to prebooking.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| marksavoie, why not share the link with the rest of us. |
Here you go ...
| Quote: |
La loi du 16 juillet 1984 a été modifiée concernant es formations et les professions relatives aux activités physiques et sportives. C’est le code du sport qui est aujourd’hui en vigueur. Rappelons que l’article L212-1 du code du sport impose clairement l’obligation de
diplôme, titre à finalité professionnelle ou certificat de qualification pour enseigner, animer, ou encadrer une activité physique ou entraîner ses pratiquants, le tout contre rémunération (sauf statuts particuliers) et que cet encadrement soit à titre d’occupation principale, ou secondaire, de façon habituelle, saisonnière ou occasionnelle. Un manquement à cette obligation légale de diplômes (titres, certificats de qualifications) est sanctionné par l’article L 212- 8 du code du sport. Ainsi, est puni d'un an d'emprisonnement et de 15 000 euros d'amende le fait pour toute personne :
- D'exercer contre rémunération l'une des fonctions de professeur, moniteur, éducateur, entraîneur ou animateur d'une activité physique ou sportive ou de faire usage de ces titres ou de tout autre titre similaire sans posséder la qualification requise au I de l'article L212-1 ou d'exercer son activité en
violation de l'article L212-7 sans avoir satisfait aux tests auxquels l'autorité administrative l'a soumise ;
- D'employer une personne qui exerce les fonctions mentionnées au premier alinéa de l'article L. 212-1 sans posséder la qualification requise ou
d'employer un ressortissant d'un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne ou d'un Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen qui exerce son activité en violation de l'article L. 212-7 sans avoir satisfait aux tests auxquels l'autorité administrative l'a soumis. |
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006547567&idSectionTA=LEGISCTA000006167038&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006071318&dateTexte=20120223
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nothing but good things from snow hosts in Canada
Almost all locals do it one day a week for 2-3 hrs for free in exchange for free day lift pass.
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FAQ
