 Poster: A snowHead
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If 31 people show up
a) There will be a vast spectrum of ability levels
b) They're idiots if they all want to ski in a group of that size.
obviously what the host should have done is institute an immediate ski-off and select who most met his criteria (or alternatively shortcut the process by just picking the attractive females (adjust genders to suit facts/sexual prefernces)  )
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob,
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what the host should have done is institute an immediate ski-off
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oooh, that would have been dangerous for him - purporting to judge their standard of skiing might of itself have indicated a degree of acceptance of liability towards them. Your suggested alternative is the safer course of action for him.
Sorry, please can someone switch off my legal mode? This is very unlike me.  I try never to get involved in legal discussions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'll pitch in here.
For those of you who don't know me I would like to point out that I have been skiing for quite a few years and have many years experience of group leading.
To address a few of the issues above from my personal view point:
Until I started the Job I (like many sH'ed) did not see the need or point of Hosting but now I know that a lot of skiers do use the service and it gives them confident on the hill.
Lets face it, if you only go skiing once a years how confident are you going to be in a new resort.
Ski hosting is social hosting. It is to guide people around the PISTED areas of the resorts.
This includes the restaurant stops and also includes having a good chat on the chairlifts, passing on information such as special event, evening restaurant recommendations, tourist office/police/shops/ locations/doctors clinic etc
I like to think I can gauge the ability of the skiers and with my local knowledge of the runs give them a good days skiing. This also mean I have to think about the day of the week, first/second days take it easy, later in the week do the harder grade of runs we are doing.
If I am taking a lower group and they want only blues that's what they get. If after a while I see they can do a easy red I will put that to them but it is THEIR own choice. I never force anyone onto anything they cannot handle.
I very often get big thanks at the end of the day/week thanking me for taking runs that they would never had thought of doing.
I ski most of the runs at least once a week, I know which are pisted often and which are not and if not how bad do they get. If I have not been on an area for a over a week in my free time I ski it to see how it is.
I do not do off piste with the guests. Big No No. Totally leaving you open in so many ways to be kicked off the mountain or sued.
I am not an instructor. I do not give advice or hints at all. What I do do is suggest private lessons with a local ski school. Which has picked up extra work off me because of this. I often get guest comeback later in the week thanking me for putting the thought into their heads (alot of people think that lessons are only for the first few weeks)
I will not take a group out with more than 12 unless accompanied by another host except for family/friend groups. They are more willing to wait for the slower skiers to catch up where as a mixed group will not wait for strangers. Another thing to consider.
At first I found it hard to remove people from a group they have put themselves into if it's to much for them. Because I want everyone to enjoy the day and be constantly waiting for a lower level skier I don't have a problem with it now. Most people are glad I gave them a way out of the group as they will be struggling to keep up. However some do take the hump and complain but the TO's do back me up, if they dont want to leave the pistes are public so if they want to carry on there is nothing I can do.
I always make sure any one leaving the group leave at a point with a full knowledge of the route back to the resort.
As to the liability question. It does not scare me because I have confidence in my ability to understand how it works. I am not stupid and I make sure that my employer has me totally covered for personal liability insurance (currently for 5 million €)
Last season due to the conditions I had a fair few injured guests mostly breaks from falls on the ice, so I am very sure I know how to deal with any issues that throws up.
The feeling I'm getting here is that it's considered a easy job and if you don't care about giving a good service it is.
However to give a good service does require thought and a mass of patience there is a says “guests leave their brains at Gatwick” when you have spend a long day with hard guests you are very tired, I'm not a natural smiler and times I would happily kill them all.
So why do I do it. Obviously the mountain time, however it's not always fun as on a great powder day you could be taking a group of blue pisters.
I also enjoy the fact that I can make someone's holiday better.
I'm sure I've missed some points I wanted to make.
I plan on carrying on doing it for a few years yet.
I take the hosting job very seriously however there are a lot who do not (Dare I say the younger generation).
So don't tare all hosts with the same brush.
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| ccl wrote: |
| Had one of my staff acted negligently, outwith his remit or whatever, the local authority would have been liable for the consequences of that negligence and liable to be sued - not the employee. |
If you're going to be a Wikilawyer, and try to impress Pedantica with your legal mind then don't write absolute rubbish and have a read of this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarious_liability_in_English_law#The_connection_of_torts_to_employment
| ccl wrote: |
| I am simply exploring issues arising from an interesting situation, expressing thoughts based on experience, pretending no legal expertise whatever .... so why the insult about armchair law? Aren't we just have a lay conversation? |
No, you were stating the legal position of a local authority in the case of an individual acting outwith his remit.
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| The OP's story, if it can be believed, is a pretty clear illustration of not being looked after to the extent that the client should reasonably expect. Would "looked after safely" be a better way of putting it? |
Errr... the usual thing on these is to require the customers to be competent on reds in order for them to join in. OP's "friend" ("my friend has a problem, please give me some advice...) was not competent on reds; that was not the host's fault. As for the broken leg, anybody can break a leg on a piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
fatbob,
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what the host should have done is institute an immediate ski-off
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oooh, that would have been dangerous for him - purporting to judge their standard of skiing might of itself have indicated a degree of acceptance of liability towards them. |
This is what most companies with multiple hosts do, it's common practice.
I don't judge there standard to anything other than how matched are they to the requirements of the group that day.
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Dwarf Vader, but if the 'requirements' are for fast skiers capable of skiing blacks, you can see how 'passing' someone as OK for that could lead to the someone saying, 'you got it wrong, you saw me ski, you said I was OK for the group, you took me down that run I wasn't in fact capable of skiing, I hurt myself, I hold you liable'. Of course that's worst case scenario, an exaggerated argument, but I'm sure you see what I mean.
FFS, someone switch me OFF! 
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Pedantica, I'm sure that is a possibility. However (thankfully) I have not had that in over 30 weeks of ski hosting. I think you will find that most skiers capable of skiing blacks do not require hosting or to put it another way it's also why you have the personal liability insurance.
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It should also be remembered that most European jurisdictions are operating under Roman [?] law systems, not common law. Thus the "litigation culture" is not so prevalent, precedence does not make law and, in Switzerland at any rate, there are two very important principles that run through the law of obligations - that you are expected to act in good faith, and that you are deemed to be a responsible adult. The law here, therefore, does not treat you as a child who has to be protected against everything. I therefore imagine the legal situation that obtains on e.g. a dry slope in Scotland is very different from that on an Alp in Switzerland etc
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dwarf Vader,
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most skiers capable of skiing blacks do not require hosting or to put it another way it's also why you have the personal liability insurance.
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Good points, well argued! 
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Let me get this straight.. you book a holiday with a company and they provide you with someone to show you around and where the best skiing can be found? and the problem is?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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sits back, gets popcorn ..............and relax........
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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<~~~ pulls up seat behind Smokin Joe, armed with a small long reach fishing net, ready to steal handfuls of popcorn when he's not looking.... 
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Schuss in Boots, I have enough for the night...........
Can we have a gold section ?
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You know it makes sense.
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Dwarf Vader, sorry, I didn't see your long post until now.
It is of course as stupid to make generalisations about ski hosts' competence as it is to make generalisations about legal liability. As you say, there are good and bad. From what you say, you are very good. That being the case, your clients are lucky bunnies.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I often get guest comeback later in the week thanking me for putting the thought into their heads (alot of people think that lessons are only for the first few weeks)
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It's amazing, isn't it? You spend ages - years, sometimes, trying to persuade people to take lessons. Then in the end, when they do, they invariably rave about it. All those wasted years. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Charlatanefc, He only thinks he's leading them. Whereas they think they've spotted a marmot and are trying to get a closer look
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Schuss in Boots, nah, Marmot's have hair (well, fur)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DB wrote: |
| So when the parisians go skiing do they have ski hosts and are their ski hosts qualified? If so, to what level? |
They may to to ClubMed and ski with a "GO". ClubMed have at least one court case against them where it was considered that their ski hosts should have been qualified as ski instructors.
At one time Crystal Holidays had a training programme for ski reps who would act as hosts (they may still do). Not all reps ski, in fact quite a lot don't.
The training was a day on piste, given by a professional (ski instructor, guide, maybe a pisteur) and discussed keeping track of group numbers, managing the group, selecting safe places to stop, not looking like you were giving instruction (no skier snakes a la ESF), what to do in case of an accident, explaining the various resort areas and signposting, last liason lift times etc. I don't think a ski host would be expected to go out with more than half a dozen skiers. This, of course, was not training recognized by the French authorities but as a tour operator they would also be expected to satisfy UK 'elf and safety requirements.
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i find it pretty odd that a company can employ a teenager to lead a "fast" group of skiers around a mountain with usually ZERO training or at most a day training but the same teenager would need to do a basic food safety and hygene course so they can cook your breakfast in your chalet so they dont give you food poison
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 16-02-12 22:15; edited 1 time in total
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Dwarf Vader, I only wish any of my hosts had had your experience & attitude. My chalet holidays have all been with smaller companies where the hosts are probably only ever going to do one season. So far I've been lucky and they've all been lovely people with a degree of responsibility and fair skiing ability, but they have absolutely not shown the degree of responsibility your post suggests. TBCH I read that and thought "can I ski with you please?" (then I read Charlatanefc's post...). I've never had as bad an experience as the OP, but I have been left behind on a mountain by a certified instructor who couldn't count to 10 (those French regulations do not guarantee that the instructor isn't a bit of a burk).
It's worth remembering that the  's community includes a lot of new starters as well as the off-piste heroes and speed merchants. Although I can (now) ski some/most blacks it is still sometimes a pleasure to simply follow someone else and see what they regard as the best areas to go. These days I regard it as a "nice to have" rather than a "must have", but it's not been that long.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little ms spock wrote: |
Dwarf Vader, I only wish any of my hosts had had your experience & attitude. My chalet holidays have all been with smaller companies where the hosts are probably only ever going to do one season. So far I've been lucky and they've all been lovely people with a degree of responsibility and fair skiing ability, but they have absolutely not shown the degree of responsibility your post suggests. TBCH I read that and thought "can I ski with you please?" (then I read Charlatanefc's post...). I've never had as bad an experience as the OP, but I have been left behind on a mountain by a certified instructor who couldn't count to 10 (those French regulations do not guarantee that the instructor isn't a bit of a burk).
It's worth remembering that the 's community includes a lot of new starters as well as the off-piste heroes and speed merchants. Although I can (now) ski some/most blacks it is still sometimes a pleasure to simply follow someone else and see what they regard as the best areas to go. These days I regard it as a "nice to have" rather than a "must have", but it's not been that long. |
I wouldn't worry, we were young and foolish at the time
Basically, we had got smashed on the last night, and went to ski Flachau before the flight home. We were the only two people on this piste, after loosing the rest of our friends by missing turns to lifts. He was skiing one edge, and I was skiing the other. Somehow we nearly managed to collide 3 times in the middle of the piste. After that run, we stopped and waited in the bar for the rest of our group. lol
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Charlatanefc, forgot about that, good times
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dwarf Vader, "I plan on carrying on doing it for a few years yet."
Mate why don't you go for the instructor qualifications, you would make a good instructor
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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All ski hosts We have used have added significantly to the enjoyment of our holidays
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Frosty the Snowman, But then you're not the average punter.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, not really. When I'm served food in a chalet, hotel or restaurant I've had zero input into its purchase, storage or cooking. When I step onto a mountain I'm 100% responsible for myself, and if I choose to follow a teenager around I don't consider that I have any less responsibility for myself. Other people might think differently, but they are either inexperienced, badly advised, or idiots.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, I think you're completely missing the point. To say we're being "led" around a mountain is misleading. We're going skiing on the mountain, and somebody else is making the choice of which piste/lift to go on/where to have lunch. Yippee doo dar. In fact, with the internet and a telephone OP could sit at his desk in England and "lead" (your choice of words) a group of skiers around a French mountain, and would you expect him to be a qualified instructor to do that?
On the other hand, if you're putting food onto my plate then I am entirely under your control and I want to think you've done a hygiene course.
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Poster: A snowHead
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James the Last,
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In fact, with the internet and a telephone OP could sit at his desk in England and "lead" (your choice of words) a group of skiers around a French mountain, and would you expect him to be a qualified instructor to do that?
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Did you spot, only the other day, that one snowHead (based in the north of England) advised another snowHead (based in Austria) which lifts were open and which pistes would therefore be good to ski? Brilliant, I thought!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| blytht wrote: |
Dwarf Vader, "I plan on carrying on doing it for a few years yet."
Mate why don't you go for the instructor qualifications, you would make a good instructor |
I thought about it but I do not wan to spend the next few years on the nursery slopes teaching kids to Pizza when I can be on the main mountain even if it's not totally at my speed/style.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When guests arrive here, we spend quite a lot of time going over the piste map with them in the bar, writing on it "fast/slow lift", "easier/more difficult red", "short cut", "sudden surprising steep bit", "best snack bar" etc. and that's fine... but I would be a bit nervous about the "follow me" thing as I would feel personally responsible (whether I was legally or not) if I misjudged someone's ability and took them down a run that was too difficult and they had a horrible, traumatising time, let alone injured themselves.
Dwarf Vader, does indeed sound like exactly the sort of ski host you'd like to have. I would definitely need some training in how to assess other people's ski ability and it sounds as if I am on a par ski ability/experience wise with some of the hosts currently working. Of course, you can say that people are inexperienced/ill-advised/idiots if they put their faith in a ski host to assess their ability to ski a run and don't make the judgement themselves but until this thread I'd have fallen into that category I'm sure (still no less of an idiot or inexperienced when it comes to using hosts but now better advised about not blindly following a ski host thinking they have necessarily had any training and know what's best) and I don't think I'm the only idiot out there... or maybe I am...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| miranda wrote: |
| When guests arrive here, we spend quite a lot of time going over the piste map with them in the bar, writing on it "fast/slow lift", "easier/more difficult red", "short cut", "sudden surprising steep bit", "best snack bar" etc. |
That sounds like a good plan, as long as you get on the hill often so you can add piste conditions for the runs as well and of course the weather is covered
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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miranda,
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I would be a bit nervous about the "follow me" thing as I would feel personally responsible (whether I was legally or not)
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Absolutely, and I'm sure that's how Dwarf Vader feels. FWIW, I skied with a MW host the other week, who despite being scarcely out of school, was absolutely brilliant. He really did look out for everyone, judged to a tee where and when he waited, and was immensely tactful - as well as knowing the mountain like the back of his hand. Towards the end of one day, I wasn't feeling that well and said that I was going to hang back and ski slowly and, since we weren't far from base and I knew how to get there, would make my own way back. He said fine, and went ahead, but still stopped a few times to make sure I was OK. Full marks.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Dwarf Vader, there's someone from our place out on the pistes every day except the odd manic changeover days... like tomorrow 
Pedantica, sounds fab - that's sort of what I always assumed ski hosts would be like.
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Pedantica, Indeed, responsible for not doing anything that can lead to problems but also responsible for the guests having a good time.
Your post also reminded me of a point I missed. Yes host ski fast. If you think about it we are skiing day in day out on slopes we know very well of course we get fast. The counter point to this is you are there to ski host the guests not race the mountain(that's a free time thing). Being fast does mean like in your situation I can hang back to check your OK and then be back with the group very quickly.
The physically hardest group to take out is the very slow group, Just constantly breaking and holding back is a thigh killer also with a lot of standing around you never get to warm up your muscles so your skiing is hard work.
But the drinks usually make up for that
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| miranda wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader, the odd manic changeover days... like tomorrow |
Yep tomorrow is going to be a bitch, I've told all my drivers to be out of resort by 0800. Leave much later it as last week showed it was bad with 6hr transfers to GVA from mid morning. It's Parisian Half term this next week. Masses of traffic.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dwarf Vader,
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I've told all my drivers to be out of resort by 0800
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The guests in my place this week (on their own without me  ) are leaving at 6.30 am, that way the only queue they will find will be the tunnel just after Aime.
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The family members in our apartment are going to have a lie-in, a good lunch finishing off all the bits and pieces, then clear and pack in leisurely fashion and leave in time to get to their pre-booked hotel in Dijon by bed-time. Tunnel Sunday mid-day, back to Dorset. Sounds a good plan to me. They could yet change their minds and have a few hours on the slopes, of course,...
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FAQ
