 Poster: A snowHead
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Have been thinking lately after reading about the history of a couple of ski resorts...
What happened before pisted bashers? Pistes left as the were? No/loosely defined pisted? Manual pisting? How? And when did someone suddenly decide to build a huge tractor for smoothing pistes?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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vik, they were left as they were.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Things were better...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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..well at least the blue run hero would be a non existent species. I recently rode a lift with a guy who'd grown up and learnt to ski in the backcountry on tele gear and resorts were a relatively new experience for him. When I 'd said it must have been a pretty good learning curve he replied he mainly got very good at falling.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| vik wrote: |
Have been thinking lately after reading about the history of a couple of ski resorts...
What happened before pisted bashers? Pistes left as the were? No/loosely defined pisted? |
It's called La Grave. 
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vik, they hired local villagers to go out and use these!
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vik, go to a club field in New Zealand for no piste bashers or go off piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm sure there was some sort of piste preparation back in the 70s/80s when I started skiing but obviously things are much better now. Fast lifts, smooth pistes, snowmaking for when mother nature fails to deliver and good signposting. In fact when I think back to the long skinny skis with no brakes on the bindings (we had leg leashes), limited piste preparation, varying snow conditions, no merino wool baselayers (we wore woolworths polo necks and tights) and lift passes on an elastic arm band, I wonder how on earth I ever managed...
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vik, before Piste bashers people made their own pistes by following other peoples tracks, you also tended to get much larger mogul fields.
There were apparently manual piste machines (though I can't find anything specific about them) possibly in the post WWII years.
So far as I can discover Bombardier were the people that developed the technology used in terms of tracks etc, however I can't find out who produced the first Piste Groomer, it seems likely that they were developed from tractor units built around the time of WWII and intended to work in hostile winter conditions, but as to who came up with the idea for sticking a paddle on the back and grooming pistes I have no idea 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Piste machines should be rigged to self destruct if they venture onto red or black runs
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| kieranm wrote: |
| http://skiingheritage.blogspot.com/2010/07/bradley-packer-grader-in-historical.html |
Spot on! Thanks very much, really interesting!
| waynos wrote: |
| vik, go to a club field in New Zealand for no piste bashers or go off piste. |
I wasn't asking for unpisted runs, plenty in most resorts or just get out of bed later  i was just asking about when modern piste prep started and what was before it.
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Piste machines should be rigged to self destruct if they venture onto red or black runs |
Not everyone wants to ski mega mogul runs all the time, sometimes its nice to turn at your leisure, rather than forced 20 times per minute.
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All you 'stop the grooming' types should consider what would have happened to your Easter holiday last year in the absence of sophisticated snow management. Be careful what you wish for.
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You know it makes sense.
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it was a two man job with a heavy roller at the back , i posted a clip last year ,but cant find it now
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I skied in Romania some years ago and all the resort was unpisted for a week after heavy snowfall, they did not have money for piste basher petrol. Glorious fun, all the beginners didnt know any better and thought quite normal to narrow snowplough through six inches of powder.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Not everyone wants to ski mega mogul runs all the time, sometimes its nice to turn at your leisure, rather than forced 20 times per minute.
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Yes but I was in the 3v two weeks ago and I could find just two vaguely challenging runs in the entire area, the Grand Coulour and Bosses that was unpisted
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| All you 'stop the grooming' types should consider what would have happened to your Easter holiday last year in the absence of sophisticated snow management. Be careful what you wish for. |
Plenty of shaded couloirs left, and in normal years there'd be much more than that.
Would be worth it anyway.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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clarky999, you're capable of doing that stuff. The average punter on here and in resort isn't, and is never going to be, however much he might enjoy reading about it, discussing it etc. Remember that the industry survives on average punters just like them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| All you 'stop the grooming' types should consider what would have happened to your Easter holiday last year in the absence of sophisticated snow management. Be careful what you wish for. |
Off piste in Val Thorens was fine n dandy thank you very much- far better than the pistes a lot of the time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| clarky999, you're capable of doing that stuff. The average punter on here and in resort isn't, and is never going to be, however much he might enjoy reading about it, discussing it etc. Remember that the industry survives on average punters just like them. |
Doesn't have to be hard!
I just like the idea of people learning to ski, rather than slide through a theme park.
Although I do recognise grooming is here to stay/without it there'd be even less money to be made in the alps/etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Doesn't have to be hard!
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Yeah right. Look at the resort clientele - kids, families, old people, holidaymakers, recreational skiers, the odd disabled person. How many of them would actually be into your ski sauvage? 'Sliding through the theme park' provides enough challenge and fun for the huge majority of skiers out there, and funds the lifts everyone else uses to get to those shaded couloirs.
People interested in 'learning to ski' will still do it, grooming or no grooming. Snow management extends the season, brings in more/new business, makes mountain communities more viable, promotes interest in wntersports in general.
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it's a different sport, isn't it? Just as ice skating on a high quality indoor rink which is maintained twice a day etc etc etc is nothing like skating in a Brueghel painting on frozen canals full of dead cats, lumps of poo and the 16 century equivalent of supermarket trolleys.
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I know that Monet isn't Brueghel, but imagine this on a chilly day:
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w,  But exactly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lizzard, Don't worry no-one's going to turn the clock back on you at least until energy prices make lift ops unaffordable to the average punter. It's worth considering that for every moan about people skiing too fast, pistes being too crowded, people stopping in dumb places there's a ready & cheap solution.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| vik wrote: |
| waynos wrote: |
| vik, go to a club field in New Zealand for no piste bashers or go off piste. |
I wasn't asking for unpisted runs, plenty in most resorts or just get out of bed later i was just asking about when modern piste prep started and what was before it |
Well you're asking what resorts were like before piste bashers so I pointed out that club fields in NZ, when I was last there, don't use bashers and generally use high speed rope tows to get you up the hill. So a bit of living ski history circa 1950s style I guess. I stayed at Craigieburn for a week many years back http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craigieburn_Valley_Ski_Area the official site seems to be down at the moment. http://www.craigieburn.co.nz/mountain/general but check other NZ club fields for a feel of pre-commercial, bashed resorts.
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Oh well its La Grave again!
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You know it makes sense.
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tangowaggon, You just had to look to your right, the joys of Telepherique or the other couloirs
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lizzard, Quite agree. I'm a very mediocre skier, but my money helps keep resorts open for others to enjoy the unpisted and natural runs which are on offer
If people hate pistes and groomed runs, don't go to them
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Yes but I was in the 3v two weeks ago and I could find just two vaguely challenging runs in the entire area, the Grand Coulour and Bosses that was unpisted
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You didn't go and talk to the Bureau des Guides then, did you?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A lot of the smaller resorts only do limited bashing - the big resorts groom because that is what their guests expect and want. Before manual piste grooming machines the piste patrollers would ski then side slip runs.
Piste bashing preserves the snow base and reduces the avalanche risk. Some US resorts which don't groom have to boot pack the runs after the first snow for the same effect.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Quote: |
Not everyone wants to ski mega mogul runs all the time, sometimes its nice to turn at your leisure, rather than forced 20 times per minute.
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Yes but I was in the 3v two weeks ago and I could find just two vaguely challenging runs in the entire area, the Grand Coulour and Bosses that was unpisted |
no off piste opps in the whole of the 3v? really!?
basically as stated by a couple of people and myself) above, all the anti-grooming people: either get up later, or go off piste.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lizzard, can't people see the contradiction between wanting immaculate groomed featureless motorways, then wanting a 100km + of trails because doing them more than once is boring!! If your always looking for a bigger resort, you'll find spending some time (and money) to advance your skill set far more rewarding.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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vik, there are many people who want more variety than endless groomers, but want the security of being on piste, in terms of having patrol and avalanche control. It's one reason why interest in crossing the pond seems to be increasing for ski holidays.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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At most of the US resorts that I have been to, a majority of black runs are left un-groomed as were some parts of Les Arcs when I was there.
OTOH, when I took my 4 yo skiing for the first time in a Park in Bourg St Maurice, I had to manually boot pack a spot for her as there was not enough pitch to get moving otherwise. On the other end of the spectrum, Aspens Highlands has local volunteers who help to boot pack Highlands bowl early in the season to mitigate avalanche danger due to the steepness of the pitch.
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What I remember, in Hinterglemm about the end of the 60s, was a man towing a thing rather like a cheese slicer down behind him. Maybe something like the things shown in the link given by kieranm but simpler, if I remember correctly. Around the same time I saw my first piste basher at the top of the Schattberg above Saalbach.
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I have some vague recollection of an old black and white photo on a wall in the restaurant in Jungholz (tiny bavarian resort) of a load of people with a giant roller of some sort, might even have been a log. The lady skiers were also wearing skirts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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on a similar note, when came actual piste bashing? - so buldozing and blastings rocks etc to actually define the piste/road/route down the hill? how many places have had this but no snow grooming? who's skiing "off-piste" versus who's skiing the terrain?
all that to one side, i love seeing old bashers and lifts and snowmobiles etc., keep em coming
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| I just like the idea of people learning to ski, rather than slide through a theme park. |
Do you also want to get rid of all the artifical 'fun parks' where all the dudes hang out Lots of them can't ski/board very well but they get their kicks from jumps, rails, boxes etc
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