Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks for posting the video it is always good to have more to look at
Quite a few things going on here and took a lot of looking through, just my thoughts.
Freeze frame at 07-08secs and you can see your skis are locked together in a very old style, Your hands and arms are tight in to your body and your right pole is vertical, you are standing tall over your skis- essentially you have no lateral stability.
If you watch the sequence from 12 secs to 18 secs you are very much in the back seat and the tips of the skis never engage. This means that every turn washes out and makes a very z shaped profile. If you freeze frame around the 17 secs point you will see that you are attempting to edge your outside ski but because you have no lateral stability your body is unwilling to commit to the same edge angle on the inside ski and it is running essentially flat on the snow to give you the stability that you need.
The sequence 12-18 secs also shows that you have very little rotational seperation and your body is not seperated from the direction of the skis, (These are not long turns) On some turns your pole plants are actually hiding a motion of your body that preceedes the turning of the skis, ie you are using your upper body to help force the change of direction.
A great deal of the issues IMHO come from a lack of ankle flex which is best seen in the sequence from 33secs where the skis jet out from under you and you land well back on the tails.
As a general comment you ski in a very upright and 'fixed' position.
If you were wanting an order of priority I would work first on your ankle flex and try and get an increase in your rotational seperation, Both of these will naturally start to lead to a softer upper body and more 'flex' to absorb your turns. try working with Javlin turns to get your weight centred, they also require a softer upper body posture and encourage your arms to be away from your torso and to have your poles diverging.
Take your sking somewhere quiet, flat and with a low gradient and try to then work on trusting your edges, this will not happen until you have given yourself the lateral stabilty that you need. This will require a wider stance. most importantaly slow everything right down and see if you can stay balanced, if things are not right you will fall over at slow speed
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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FlyingStantoni wrote: |
Layne wrote: |
I have worked hard on skiing bumps better so it's good to hear they don't look too bad. |
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I didn't say that they didn't look too bad. |
I've just re-watched your video to relate it to kevindonkleywood's comments. Having watched it again, I'm going to take back my comment.
What's really nice in your bumps skiing is the shape of your turns - you are generally much more patient with them and, as a result, they are generally much more rounded.
Maybe try to take that back into your piste skiing.
[BTW - what is it that the camera operator calls you at 0:08 ?]
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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try working with Javlin turns to get your weight centred
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I can't add to the comments on your skiing but just thought I'd say that I've found Javlin turns extremely useful. They're something I routinely do on my first nice long easy blue run of the day, to get into the swing of things. Also any time things are not going well, and I'm having one of those "can't do anything right" days. When I'm having a better day I try them on something a bit more difficult.
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Obviously I have never seen myself ski but I think I have many of the same 'bad habits' as the OP; standing too upright, leaning back a bit, skis too close together, short zig zaggy turns. But he/she is much better at the bumps that me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[BTW - what is it that the camera operator calls you at 0:08 ?]
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It's my wife and she says "stupid" for me spraying snow towards the camcorder. Thought it was quite cool myself
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 25-01-12 21:23; edited 1 time in total
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That video is a good illustration why javelins should be used with caution. Pretty easy to get weight dropped back and hips in an excessively open position. If you're just looking to deal with lateral balance in long radius turns I think it is much better to just lift the inside ski rather than javelin it.
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Lift it and keep it parralell to the other ski or with a slight inner tip lead?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar +1 - I've spent the last 3 years fixing the effects of javelin turns.
DB, lift it up and keep it as straight as possible. Or do what the racers do and take the ski off and keep your boot just off the ground.
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Layne, what boots yer got?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar wrote: |
That video is a good illustration why javelins should be used with caution. Pretty easy to get weight dropped back and hips in an excessively open position. If you're just looking to deal with lateral balance in long radius turns I think it is much better to just lift the inside ski rather than javelin it. |
When you say 'javelin it,' do you mean the twisting of the raised ski?
The exercise is doing no favours to the guy in the yellow salopettes in the first vid...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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clarky999, yes, hence the suggestion to just lift it, rather than lift and twist...
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kitenski wrote: |
clarky999, yes, hence the suggestion to just lift it, rather than lift and twist... |
And you don't need to hold it up either, just a fraction of a second to remind yourself to 'change feet'.
There are a some tricky exercises that ski instructors spend hours mastering which are completely counter productive for the poor sod who skis one or two weeks a year. They are arguably of dubious value to the ski instructors themselves who would probably be better off finding some challenging terrain instead. IMHO.
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You know it makes sense.
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altis, I've got Atomic M100's.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Kenny wrote: |
kitenski wrote: |
clarky999, yes, hence the suggestion to just lift it, rather than lift and twist... |
And you don't need to hold it up either, just a fraction of a second to remind yourself to 'change feet'.
There are a some tricky exercises that ski instructors spend hours mastering which are completely counter productive for the poor sod who skis one or two weeks a year. They are arguably of dubious value to the ski instructors themselves who would probably be better off finding some challenging terrain instead. IMHO. |
I do sometimes wonder this myself - if the idea that there's a drill to "fix" every problem and the "industry" in developing ever more fiendish drills isn't a barrier to skiing as a "holistic" sport. More specifically I sometimes wonder if the effort being spent maintaining the artificial construct of the drill isn't a distraction from doing the bread and butter thing "properly".
& then I think it's probably just sour grapes cos I can't do any of that shizzle
...random scattergun drills probably are of limited value to Joe Public hence why teaching by App or Book or Video is still sub optimal.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, erm, a slight parting of hymn sheets...Scott was requiring quite a few javelin turns on Monday! Mind you, he was also yelling at me to get my weight forward.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pedantica, I'll bet they were short radius, skiddy turns? Good for getting hip in a strong position. Scott and I have discussed this a few times and agreed we wouldn't use them in long radius turns as they can encourage bad stance issues. He also does a javelin snowplough, which is a real treat (to watch).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob wrote: |
I do sometimes wonder this myself - if the idea that there's a drill to "fix" every problem and the "industry" in developing ever more fiendish drills isn't a barrier to skiing as a "holistic" sport. More specifically I sometimes wonder if the effort being spent maintaining the artificial construct of the drill isn't a distraction from doing the bread and butter thing "properly". |
I used to think that, and then I realised it was...
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& then I think it's probably just sour grapes cos I can't do any of that shizzle |
When I got better at them I recognised the value to breaking down your skiing to develop specific skills and that sometimes a good drill set can really help with that. However...
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...random scattergun drills probably are of limited value to Joe Public hence why teaching by App or Book or Video is still sub optimal. |
You are exactly right to say that, so Death by Drill should be avoided at all costs. You need (or your instructor needs) to know why you are using a particular drill, and if it isn't achieving what you want it to achieve you should drop it promptly. Part of using a drill well is being able to see what it looks like when you put your skiing back together, so they shouldn't be used without cool down runs to see the overall impact on your skiing.
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rob@rar,
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I'll bet they were short radius, skiddy turns?
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Yes. In theory at least.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pedantica,
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar wrote: |
fatbob wrote: |
I do sometimes wonder this myself - if the idea that there's a drill to "fix" every problem and the "industry" in developing ever more fiendish drills isn't a barrier to skiing as a "holistic" sport. More specifically I sometimes wonder if the effort being spent maintaining the artificial construct of the drill isn't a distraction from doing the bread and butter thing "properly". |
I used to think that, and then I realised it was...
Quote: |
& then I think it's probably just sour grapes cos I can't do any of that shizzle |
When I got better at them I recognised the value to breaking down your skiing to develop specific skills and that sometimes a good drill set can really help with that. However...
Quote: |
...random scattergun drills probably are of limited value to Joe Public hence why teaching by App or Book or Video is still sub optimal. |
You are exactly right to say that, so Death by Drill should be avoided at all costs. You need (or your instructor needs) to know why you are using a particular drill, and if it isn't achieving what you want it to achieve you should drop it promptly. Part of using a drill well is being able to see what it looks like when you put your skiing back together, so they shouldn't be used without cool down runs to see the overall impact on your skiing. |
keep the skill; dump the drill...
IF the drill is working...
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Layne, thanks.
I did wonder if your boots were rather too stiff for you but, IMV, they shouldn't be. However, if you have the opportunity to try / hire some softer boots then it might be worth an experiment. If your feet are narrow enough to fit in a Flexon then I'd recommend you give them a try. I love mine and they certainly had a positive effect on Mrs A's skiing.
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queen bodecia,
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I think I have many of the same 'bad habits' as the OP; standing too upright, leaning back a bit, skis too close together, short zig zaggy turns
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me too - and I still default to these habits sometimes, despite the best efforts of some very good instructors.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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altis, this isn't an equipment issue.
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FlyingStantoni wrote: |
altis, this isn't an equipment issue. |
How can you be so sure? If the boots were too upright wouldn't that throw him into the backseat / keep him upright?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Fri 27-01-12 10:14; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FlyingStantoni wrote: |
you ski better in the bumps than on piste.
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That was my first impression too. You look nice and relaxed and style looks a bit old school - which I think actually suits moguls but certainly not faster open pistes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My inclination is that Layne switched too early to stiffer boots and his body is now trained into this upright stance. I wondered if softer boots, combined with the will to do it, would encourage him back into a more normal position. Once achieved, he could return to his normal boots.
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Quote: |
If the boots were too upright wouldn't that throw him into the backseat / keep him upright?
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no actually just the opposite
DB the guy in the orange executes the javelin very badly and i find that drill does more harm than good especially when done at higher speeds and longer radius turns...
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You know it makes sense.
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DB wrote: |
FlyingStantoni wrote: |
altis, this isn't an equipment issue. |
How can you be so sure? If the boots were too upright wouldn't that throw him into the backseat / keep him upright? |
Let's set aside that he's 6'4", 85kg and on 100 flex boots. I'll give you a moderation of that statement for the general case.
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altis, this is unlikely to be an equipment issue. Given the technique displayed its not the first place to look for a solution. |
I'll give you that the forward lean might not be helping. I'll give you that the boots (for a given person - certainly not in this case) might be too stiff. Or that the ramp angle of the binding is wrong. Or the boot isn't mounted optimally on the ski if the OP has big feet (skimottaret is your man here). Equally, the OP might be on inappropriately stiff skis for his ability.
But. We'll never know any of that until the OP gives his kit a chance to work by using what he's got properly. At the moment he's rushing the turn, heel pushing and letting his skis come together - all of which won't allow him to balance on his kit.
If the OP had a good turn shape, was clearly balanced on his skis and had good movement - and was still in the backseat - then I'd look at equipment.
An observation, rather than a rant, there's a tendency on s for people to run to equipment for solutions when it's how the kit is being used that is the fundamental issue.
One place where altis and I might fundamentally agree is that "too stiff" (boots and skis) is usually a bigger problem than "too soft". If your boots/skis are too soft then you'll be able to ski well, but the kit will just go to "noodles" when you drive it hard. If your boots/skis are too stiff then you just won't be able to ski well unless you have good technique.
Another way of putting this. If Laybe were to spend £300-400 on some Flexon boots or the same amount on lessons with some applied practice in between lessons, which do you think is most likely to give the better results?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Quote: |
I think there can be cases where kit is just bio-mechanically wrong for the user but I suspect it's actually quite rare and that stuff like alignment and shimming etc is a tweak rather than a necessity.
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fatbob, Disagree with that, poor setup and incorrect equipment hampers a lot of skiers not just the odd rare occasion or slight tweak...
Lets look at a good intermediate level recreational skier who we have worked with pre and post alignment, he didnt have any major issues but getting his delta angle sorted made a big difference to his skiing
http://vimeo.com/channels/insideoutskiiing#34910087
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret wrote: |
Quote: |
I think there can be cases where kit is just bio-mechanically wrong for the user but I suspect it's actually quite rare and that stuff like alignment and shimming etc is a tweak rather than a necessity.
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fatbob, Disagree with that, poor setup and incorrect equipment hampers a lot of skiers not just the odd rare occasion or slight tweak...
Lets look at a good intermediate level recreational skier who we have worked with pre and post alignment... |
I actually agree with both of you on this to an extent.
skimottaret, I certainly wouldn't disagree with the fundamental premise there. As you've already pointed out, new ski boots have helped improve my alignment. And it's certainly helped your skier...
...but your skier clearly had a good turn shape; was making good movements and, I'm guessing, you coached him to the point where you suspected that it wasn't "lack of trying" that was the issue and that an equipment tweak would help?
But you'd only exceptionally suggest a change of equipment as a starting point...(?)
My point of agreement with fatbob is that it would be rare for equipment to be blocking to such an extent that a skier couldn't make a reasonable turns. The question of equipment starts kicking in once they try to add some proper performance.
What do you think?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FlyingStantoni,
I've already advised numerous Snowheads to go for standard rental skis and spend more on lessons.
I wasn't saying it was an equipment issue I was asking how you could be so 100% sure. Yes to me it also looks mostly technique isses but I couldn't rule out that alternative equipment might help.
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skimottaret, I don't disagree that it may help almost all but I'm a bit cynical on the "magic bullet" thing. I would suggest that anyone who gets real performance leaps from alignment work alone falls into the category of serious biomechanical issues (I don't know population frequency)
My anecdotal evidence is that it doesn't take that long to get a feel for different skis when demoing and they might be totally different lengths, ramp angles, binding positions never mind other performance characteristics. Now that's not necessarily maxing them out.
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skimottaret wrote: |
db wrote: |
If the boots were too upright wouldn't that throw him into the backseat / keep him upright?
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no actually just the opposite |
Are you saying a boot with more forward lean would keep him upright and throw him in the backseat. Why?
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Pardon my ignorance... what's all this about boot flex/flexon boots
The ski's are definitely not too stiff. I've already skied a week on ski's too stiff for me and went back to Rossi Bandits/B2's. It's possible the pair I am skiing on here are not set right, as they were bought second hand.
My feeling fwiw is that if set up is not a big issue but I am happy to be convinced otherwise
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, not quite, upright boots do not put people in the back seat but they will promote a more upright stance.. Speed boots for DH and Super G for instance have more forward lean to promote a lower more crouched stance. Tech boots for SL will have less forward lean.
the forward lean is one element , delta or ramp angle is the other and having a higher heel generally does NOT help get you forward it is the opposite.
to demonstrate put your ski boots on and stand in a skiing stance with your bum just touching wall. flex and extend starting with the ankles and see if your hips go up and down or fore and aft...
then do the same exercise with a book under each heel and see if your hip joint moves forward or back in comparison to no book under the heels
fatbob, i dont mean to imply that setup is a magic bullet but why hamper your skiing with equipment that you have to fight against... most set up issues i see are for people with knock knees or for those who are constantly in the "back seat" as our video skier was.
I do agree that it can be a crutch to some people or a straw to grasp at... I had a client this week with a ski mojo thingy and her thighs burned because of a terrible stance and lack of ankle flex and the stupid mojo thing didnt address the fundamental issues. we worked on stance and movements and with some time to consolidate i recommended binning the mojo
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DB wrote: |
I've already advised numerous Snowheads to go for standard rental skis and spend more on lessons.
I wasn't saying it was an equipment issue I was asking how you could be so 100% sure. Yes to me it also looks mostly technique isses but I couldn't rule out that alternative equipment might help. |
Not the intention to suggest otherwise.
In truth my original reply should have been moderated back to something closer to "...maybe, but it's not where you should start as a priority for the issues being displayed".
You are quite right that equipment might help. I'm actually also closer to skimottaret than fatbob in believing that, once people reach a certain level, paying attention to equipment set up typically helps. I believe that because I know what difference equipment has had on my skiing performance.
And (but!)...
In assessing someone's skiing the emphasis is to work from the snow upwards, not from a generalised picture of what an "ideal skier" looks like. If you start at the snow in the OP's case then 100% of the immediate problem is the path the skis are taking on the snow.
If the OP was skiing like skimottaret's skier pre-alignment then I wouldn't have made that statement.
Which was probably a poor one to have made anyway
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