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30 foreign ski instructors / coaches arrested today here (Dolomites)

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
30 non-Italian instrcutors/coaches were just arrested on the slopes as they were teaching/coaching classes/clubs.

They were not registered with the local AMSI.

They were brought into our school's office for translation with the local police.

More details to follow when I have them
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Had they ensured they were last person out of the gondola?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Excellent.
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fatbob wrote:
Had they ensured they were last person out of the gondola?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

anyway.
4 polish teachers were fined and the rest have been told to either stop teaching or be expelled from the region.
15 Russian teachers have been told to either stop teaching or they will be forbidden from buying lift passes in the area for the next 5 years.
3 others who claimed to be coaching and not teaching have had their lift passes removed.
etc
etc

The police are now checking "every day" on people they don't know. This is the 3rd time this year that non qualified and licensed (by the Trento AMSI) people have been removed from the slopes and fined.

more details here
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One of these days the common economic area is going to work sigh
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Fattes13, I wouldn't hold your breath.
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A couple of years ago I turned down an offer from Skiing Europe (remember it?) to instruct in the Dolomites because I couldn't get confirmation that it had cleared my working there with the Italian authorities. Bearing in mind the situation in the Aosta valley with Interski, I didn't' reckon on taking any risks.

Quite glad I did that. Cool
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Quote:

One of these days the common economic area is going to work sigh

You think that jobs in EU countries should be open to any Russians who want to come and work? that's uncommonly generous of you.
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I suspect one of the issues is how many Italian instructors are fluent in Russian for the lucrative New Year crowds?
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Who were they actually arresting??

Under the international coaching protocol as agreed via the IVSI, then clubs are allowed to bring they own coaches to a resort for the coaching of their own members. There are certain conventions to be followed, such as informing the local authorities that you are there (although this can be problematic, as who the local authority is is in many cases not well defined). For example, in Champoluc before Xmas there was the British BARSC races, and lots of clubs were there with their coaches, and this was FULLY supported by the the local ski/lift company. Are the resorts seriously going to turn this business away? In fact, I'm currently in a resort working with three other coaches for our club, and we've done this for 30 years and never had issues - but when the members leave, so do we.

But instructors/coaches who live in a resort. and ply for trade with the general public (albeit from their native country) without following the local rules only have themselves to blame if they run into problems.
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The people who got nabbed were ski instructors who had come here specifically to teach their groups.

They used a half-arsed idea of getting the people to register as members of their ski club

But

Let’s face it we all know (and so do the cops round here) what a real ski club is and what is just a way to try and get round the regulations.

I am not going to get into the rights and wrong of it but the basics are that every single ski instructor/coach in Europe knows the rules. The vast majority of em stick to the rules. Legal trickery will not work with the on-slope cops.

It’s dead simple. If you want to teach your group round here then 1st you need contact the local AMSI office in Trento and get permission – which they always give after they have checked you out with your nation association. If you don’t check out then you will not get permission. They only people who don’t follow this process are those that know their own nation association will not confirm their right to work in Italy, and so they just turn up and then complain it’s not their fault and aint the world horrid to them, etc.

So, if you want to bring groups here and teach em, you can, no problems, as long as you’re qualified to. Oh and if you try to use the “hey I’m not teaching, I’m coaching” thingy, it won’t work around here – unless you really are coaching a”genuine” ski club.then (again) you will not have any problems at all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
PS

On sort of the same topic

I am not going to say much here as I am waiting to the official papers on it then I am going to forward them to BASI who will no doubt know what to do.

But

From next year BASI L2's / 3's will be able to be taken on by some ski schools for the whole season.

It may take a while for me to get the official stuff and send it to BASI, although I would think they already know about this as it was decided just after Christmas by the directors association.

BASI will, if they want to, notify people in due course of the full story (as I will no doubt only get half of it wink )
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I would have thought that an appropriately stuffed brown envelope would have done the trick? Maybe the Italians really are going to clean everything up? Then again...
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
This has been brewing for sometime. Last year I was chatting to some of the locals in Alta Badia who were getting fed up with the Russians and Poles not 'playing the game'. Arriving on their own coaches, laden with beer and food. Not spending any money in resort apart from lift pass and accomodation. Not using local guides and instructors etc etc. They were of the opinion that something had to be done to preserve the livelihoods of seasonnaires and casuals, so this comes as no surprise.
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Another day, another "coach" nabbed Puzzled


[/img]
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne Do you happen to know whether a EuroSki Pro card was being carried by any of these guys that were arrested. As I thought that people who had one on them would probably just be slapped on the wrist and told to 'register' with the AMSI asap?

The 'coaching' loophole is a dodgy one and some people use that over here in France.
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I'd suspect all they'll ultimately succeed in doing is causing the groups using their own club instructors to find other resorts to go to or go without lessons entirely. If you're Polish and want to be taught in Polish you're still not going to sign up to lessons with an Italian ski school, you'll save your cash and maybe try to botch through with your mates.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I had a mate who went with his Officer training corps unit (TA equivalent for uni students who want to fast track to officer status) to France to teach absolute beginners with his group which he was paid to do. He was BASI level 2 qualified which I believe is one level too low to teach in France, was he breaking the law or not? I reckoned he was and that he should watch he himself. He reckoned he wasn't, who was right?
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rambotion, If he was teaching military personnel being paid by the military, I think the services can pretty much do exactly as they please within NATO.
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rambotion It is not the BASI 'level' that matters... you are either a trainee instructor in France which means you have to have Level 2 or 3 completed WITH your Test Technique (a French Slalom exam) OR you have to have your ISTD Level 4 which IS the level at which you are mutually recognised / receive your French Equivalence. So if he was Level 2 with Test Technique then he is fine... but I can guarantee he does not have that as there only a couple of brits who have their TT and when you have that you invariably start teaching full time in France for a stagiere training centre school like the ESF / Oxygene etc. There is the loop hole of 'coaching' where if you are part of a recognised group with non-for-profit and you can prove that the group would not have come there if you were not there AND you accompany them to and from the resort then you can teach but apart from expenses you cannot be paid a penny for doing the work. The authorities that control what happens on the French slopes are a government department who do not necessarily understand what the local mayor / lift company etc may or may not have agreed to therefore there can still be some confusion. Here in Val d'Isere I do know that the mairie are quite keen on having the military come here (lots of military come here and spend lots of money one way or another) so the odd thing here or there they are fine with.

Quote:
was he breaking the law or not
... probably yes but as a one off they probably would let him off but he is skating on thin ice. But as Spyderman says being a military thing they would probably find a loophole by saying it is for 'operational reasons' which would further cover his back but don't expect a warm welcome or helping hand from the French. If it was civilian then he would be totally stuffed.
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Steve Angus wrote:


The 'coaching' loophole is a dodgy one and some people use that over here in France.


I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the French too get wise to it and crack down.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 26-01-12 20:59; edited 1 time in total
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Steve Angus wrote:
There is the loop hole of 'coaching' where if you are part of a recognised group with non-for-profit and you can prove that the group would not have come there if you were not there AND you accompany them to and from the resort then you can teach but apart from expenses you cannot be paid a penny for doing the work.


That is my understanding of the IVSI licence too, interesting to see how "coaching clubs" get around these rules when ultimately challenged.
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Maybe if it was a Bundeswehr OTC the French would have just run away! wink
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Spyderman wrote:
rambotion, If he was teaching military personnel being paid by the military, I think the services can pretty much do exactly as they please within NATO.
Spot on as I understand it (having done some military ski instruction). As the military (including OTCs) treat skiing as military training (AT/PT/leadership etc), it should, theoretically, be conducted by military instructors (either serving personnel or JSSI qualified). As France is, just about, a NATO member country, there will be many things written into laws much higher than those concerning ski schools regarding other NATO states conducting various elements of the training on French soil.
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Steve Angus wrote:
Wayne Do you happen to know whether a EuroSki Pro card was being carried by any of these guys that were arrested. As I thought that people who had one on them would probably just be slapped on the wrist and told to 'register' with the AMSI asap?

The 'coaching' loophole is a dodgy one and some people use that over here in France.



Hi Steve
Not a clue. I’m just an instructor Toofy Grin (best way to be)
They don't tell us much - in fact sod all

The first I heard about it was I got pulled by the local cops to ask if I could speak Polish - they asked everyone who isn't a local, we have lots of people from strange places wink . Eventually they found out school secretary is dual Polish/Italian and so was asked to translate.

She said the problem was that some weren’t qualified and none of them had the necessary licence.

Anyone can get one, all you have to is ask - I got one last week for a BASI L2 (not a bad place to get your 200hrs in one go), our school director signed them off and then faxed this over to the AMSI in Trento and now they can work here in the Brenta Dolomites for a while. They will be counted as a trainee teacher in the same as the locals (but trainees get only @€35 per hour, still not bad for a BASI 2). they can teach under supervision, which just means you have to tell the director what you’re going to do and where. I think this would be the same for a BASI trainer if they were asked to look afer a trainee. They would just make sure the trainee was OK and didn't have any problems and they were teaching the right stuff to the right people. I would think its the same all over. Stick to the rules and you don't get any grief.

I "think" that this is the same in France - you can do whatever you want as long as your are EITHER a top award holder OR working for the ESF or some other legal school (here it would be the local AMSI affiliated school) - but bear in mind that I don't have any clue who it works in france. In fact the only I do know is that the coffee is undrinkable Laughing

The daft thing is that now the cops are checking everyone not working for a local school, so on monday morning tthere will be loads more begginers up the slopes without a teacher. It's only a simple fax that's needed, its simple.
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Do foreign Mountain Guides officially also have to get local permission to operate in Italy, or is it just Ski Teachers?
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snowball wrote:
Do foreign Mountain Guides officially also have to get local permission to operate in Italy, or is it just Ski Teachers?

Not a clue, but, as I understand it (may be wrong – but was told this in a pub, so “must” be true), BMG’s have a harder test than is required by the UIAGM, so BMG’s can work anywhere they want as they are actually more qualified than the locals. Also, BMG’s tend to operate in places the local cops can’t get to on a chair lift, so not much chance of them getting pulled whilst working.

Also BMG's will not take tourist for lessons and claim they are coaching - which I think was the main problem. As a general rule, BMG's guide and MIC's teach.

The people with the top ski grade from their country would not have any problems working here alone. ie. A BASI L4 can just let the AMSI know they arew coming and everything will be fine. A BASI L3 could work here with no problems providing that they do it in association with a local school, the school director will sort out all the paperwork (or tell you to sod off depending on which side of the bed they got out of) - you may have to pay a few euros, but that's just the system. BASI 2's can only work here as trainees in a ski school. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's just how it is.

I "think" it's the same in france, austria, etc. You need to sort it out with the local ski assoc. (here it's the AMSI) to teach but a coach can just turn up. Mind you, just like every ski resort, we have shead loads of ski clubs turning up every week, some racers, some just a local club from Rome, Verona, etc. The racers will bring coaches and even some of the family clubs will do the same. So you can see why it's open to abuse.

If I want to take a group to scotland or a big fridge in england, I wouldn't just turn up and start teaching. I would contact the scottish ski lift company to see what the local rules are and then stick to em. In a big fridge I would contact the boss of the school and see what the rules are. I think that's all the people round here are asking. There are rules in place, so stick to em and don't whinge if you don't and get nabbed.
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Steve Angus,
Hi steve,
Just asked about that Eurocard question. I think you'd need to speak to someone at BASI about that as (as far as I know ??) the Eurocard is only handed out to people from certain countries. In France this will not cause many problems and it's miles away from the non Eurocard countries, but as we're only a coach ride away....... you can see why it may be more of a problems here than France (also our coffee is nicer Madeye-Smiley ).
If you speak to BASI they will know which countries are in the Eurocard system, I don't know.
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Quote:

This has been brewing for sometime. Last year I was chatting to some of the locals in Alta Badia who were getting fed up with the Russians and Poles not 'playing the game'. Arriving on their own coaches, laden with beer and food. Not spending any money in resort apart from lift pass and accomodation. Not using local guides and instructors etc etc. They were of the opinion that something had to be done to preserve the livelihoods of seasonnaires and casuals, so this comes as no surprise.


Although it is understood that this is how the locals earn their living, maybe they should look at their prices if people are finding much cheaper ways of doing their ski trips. Some of the prices up there are scandalous, £8-10 a pint etc. It could force some resorts to become more competitive with ski lessons and food and drink etc. They may wish to ban people bringing their own ski's soon so you have to rent them.
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mheadbee, Skiing is down 50% the resorts may not be there if the picnic crowd abuse their facilities. The reality check of running chair lifts costing £5,000,000 and allowing a virtual ski resort, within a resort has arrived. As Bernie Eccelstone says if you cannot afford something you cannot have it.
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mheadbee wrote:
Although it is understood that this is how the locals earn their living

Cynic wrote:
mheadbee, The reality check of running chair lifts costing £5,000,000.


OK this is the internet, so we all know, beyond any doubt, that the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll was actually Elvis; he was unhappy that the president was supporting the new law limiting the width of trouser flairs.

But, back in the real world.

It was the police who took action against a group of people who were flouting local laws. It was not the lift pass company, the ski schools, the St Bernard Dog that kids get their picture taken with, the piste-basher driver’s union, etc, etc, it was the police.

I will (almost) guarantee that the person who sent these instructors over here knew that it was not legal – but hey, why pay the AMSI for just a bit of paper. I like to imagine some Fagin-like figure dancing around as the instructor’s departed for Italy – Fair Thee Well But Be Back Soon, I D’know Somehow I Miss Ya Laughing

All ski instructors know the rules. Some don’t agree with them, some don't, but most people stick to em?

It was the police, who nabbed these guys and gals, not Elvis, but this is the internet, so it just (just possibly) may have been, so we are free to spout this rubbish – I know my rights, ya know wink and don't get me started on the Yeti (I really did see one in the chip shop last night)

Cool
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Wayne, now I know you;re lying, there's no chip shop in Folgarida. Some nice pizzas though Very Happy


Hmmm, that might be a bit of a market opportunity in one of the more brit-centric resorts...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

Quote:

One of these days the common economic area is going to work sigh


You think that jobs in EU countries should be open to any Russians who want to come and work? that's uncommonly generous of you.

Russia is not part of the Common Economic Area, It would be open to the free movment of labour through Europe betweem MEMBER STATES.

I think the french situation requiring ISTD to teach is silly when there are plenty of ISIA (Level 3 Qualified) people out there who are more than capable. But hey the French/Italians/Austirans & Swiss own the mountains and can do what they want.
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I think the french situation requiring ISTD to teach is silly when there are plenty of ISIA (Level 3 Qualified) people out there who are more than capable. But hey the French/Italians/Austirans & Swiss own the mountains and can do what they want.
Fattes13, You are correct, The French require ISTD so if you want to teach in France that is what you need, full qualification.
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Follow up to an old post from a few months ago.

It seems the locals are now getting their act together to try and stop non-registered teachers working here.
Up north (Sud-Tirol) they have found an operation that has employed (over the season) 122 polish teachers. OMG.

Mind it you, it also seems the local are more interested in getting the taxes owed rather than slapping their wrists.

More details here
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